2015 Vuelta stage 6: Córdoba > Sierra de Cazorla 200.3km

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

I thought Martin timed has attack well this time. He's just not as good as Chaves on these stages right now - on stage 2 he tried to follow when Chaves attacked and couldn't go with him

He took fifteen seconds back on Chaves and passed Dumoulin. The notion that Chaves (or Dumoulin) is "just better right now" than Martin (or Valverde or Purito) is just wishful thinking, Chaves is doing great, is a big talent and has excellent form, but today he won through good timing and the failure of any of the big favourites to even attempt to respond until it was too late.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Re: Re:

Who's older, Quintana or Chaves?

Chaves looks 12, Quintana looks between 12 and 32.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re:

Chaves still looks like a 12 year old kid to me.

He really does. He's even 'cute' in a little kid kind of way. Impossible not to like him.

 

[BigMac]

I don't like him, really.

There, thread ruined.

 

[hfer07]

Re: Re:

Who's older, Quintana or Chaves?

NOT AGAIN !!!!!!

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Don't think the Tour guys can really peak anymore, just hang on to their form for dear life and hope they don't get deep fried, baked, cooked and barbequed, all at the same time

For the only one who that could happens is Quintana, becoue it his first time to double Tour-Vuelta, but not for the rest.

But with Quintana you never knows, as well it is not normal to be second in your first GT, and more if is le Tour. That is totally unusual, so he could double well too...who knows..

I expect Froome with a level similar to le Tour, with less spark, but enough to win to the people that came from il Giro or Chaves. Tomorrow is not a bad day for him, long climb, not very step. and he must be there with the best. He just need to be regular, take advantage of a stage as fuente del Chivo, and do a good TT in Burgos.

People from leTour as Purito or Valverde looks that dont want to waste any extra power.

Landa looks like he just follow Aru and dont waste more energy, other way his director could be upset if he pur some econd to Aru...

 

[Gigs_98]

I mean that seriously, I can imagine that Dumoulin wins the vuelta. He climbs extremely well, he is a better TT rider than any other gc contender and he has already a decent advantage on guys like Aru

If Dumoulin is within 5 mins of the GC leader before the start of the stage 17 TT, you can choose my avatar

I think you misunderstand me. I don't think that Dumoulin wins the vuelta but I can't remember that Dumoulin has ever climbed that good on short but steep climbs too. The point is that if he can also surprise me on longer climbs he, suddenly becomes a gc contender and with the long ITT still to come he suddenly would be one of my favorites.
What would you have said if I had told you a guy called Froome will finish 2nd in 2011, four years ago, only beaten by Cobo. You know, the Vuelta writes crazy stories and although its still very unlikely I think this could become another one.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

I thought Martin timed has attack well this time. He's just not as good as Chaves on these stages right now - on stage 2 he tried to follow when Chaves attacked and couldn't go with him

He took fifteen seconds back on Chaves and passed Dumoulin. The notion that Chaves (or Dumoulin) is "just better right now" than Martin (or Valverde or Purito) is just wishful thinking, Chaves is doing great, is a big talent and has excellent form, but today he won through good timing and the failure of any of the big favourites to even attempt to respond until it was too late.

The finish was steep / shallow / steep. 9 times out of 10 at least any move on the first steep section is doomed to failure. Chaves went too early and understandably slowed a bit late on but is insanely good right now. If he'd have gone when Martin went he'd have won by more than he did imo

 

[Afrank]

Re:

I don't like him, really.

There, thread ruined.

Excuse me sir, this threads purpose is now for praising the second Colombian messiah. Please see yourself out.

 

[Valv.Piti]

More than Valverde that has allready won, what is really worrying is the performance of Katusha & Purito.

I agree on that one. I dont like people defending Katusha's tactics and riding style over and over again, besides, Moreno and Purito seems a bit past their primes. They clearly WANT to try to win those stages (I mean, why not - its equally hard for everyone else..), but they simply dont have the legs. Will they get it in the high mountains? I doubt it really much.

But just look at the stages we had.

- Caminito del Rey was a pure Purito finish, and he showed he was better then Bala, Froome and the rest. The team made a horrible mistake in the final.

- Frontera: Sagan 2nd, behind Valverde. That just shows it wasn't a finish for Purito.

- Sierra Cazorla: Good finish, but not hard enough. Typical Bala finish, so no chance for Purito.

Did we already get Valdepenas de Jaen? Or Mirador de Ezaro? Or Pena Cabarga? Don't think so.

Well, you are obviously a firm believer in Purito no matter what. I cant change that.

My simple point just pretty much is: He is past his prime. He wants to win those kinda stages, but can't right now and I doubt he will be able to be a true contender.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

What I don't understand is,

Why the hell didn't the whole peloton just follow Dumoulin, he was riding to save his jersey anyway, got within say 10 seconds in the last 500m, then the final sprint might have been for the win

Quintana was on his wheel and he let him go, perhaps he didn't want to spend much energy, and nobody else wanted to bridge that gap

 

[Arredondo]

More than Valverde that has allready won, what is really worrying is the performance of Katusha & Purito.

I agree on that one. I dont like people defending Katusha's tactics and riding style over and over again, besides, Moreno and Purito seems a bit past their primes. They clearly WANT to try to win those stages (I mean, why not - its equally hard for everyone else..), but they simply dont have the legs. Will they get it in the high mountains? I doubt it really much.

But just look at the stages we had.

- Caminito del Rey was a pure Purito finish, and he showed he was better then Bala, Froome and the rest. The team made a horrible mistake in the final.

- Frontera: Sagan 2nd, behind Valverde. That just shows it wasn't a finish for Purito.

- Sierra Cazorla: Good finish, but not hard enough. Typical Bala finish, so no chance for Purito.

Did we already get Valdepenas de Jaen? Or Mirador de Ezaro? Or Pena Cabarga? Don't think so.

Well, you are obviously a firm believer in Purito no matter what. I cant change that.

My simple point just pretty much is: He is past his prime. He wants to win those kinda stages, but can't right now and I doubt he will be able to be a true contender.

No, you just don't look at the facts and circumstances. I know you don't, because this is typical an answer of someone who just has a point without arguments.

He's not as good anymore as 2012/2013. But if you organize a Mirador de Ezaro stage today, he still wins it. Missed Mur the Huy stage? He just waits for the perfect finish to shine.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Don't think the Tour guys can really peak anymore, just hang on to their form for dear life and hope they don't get deep fried, baked, cooked and barbequed, all at the same time

For the only one who that could happens is Quintana, becoue it his first time to double Tour-Vuelta, but not for the rest.

But with Quintana you never knows, as well it is not normal to be second in your first GT, and more if is le Tour. That is totally unusual, so he could double well too...who knows..

I expect Froome with a level similar to le Tour, with less spark, but enough to win to the people that came from il Giro or Chaves. Tomorrow is not a bad day for him, long climb, not very step. and he must be there with the best. He just need to be regular, take advantage of a stage as fuente del Chivo, and do a good TT in Burgos.

People from leTour as Purito or Valverde looks that dont want to waste any extra power.

Landa looks like he just follow Aru and dont waste more energy, other way his director could be upset if he pur some econd to Aru...

It was not his first GT

 

[Valv.Piti]

Oh, did he win at Huy this year? I didnt know. Holy *** dude.

We can sit here and throw spicy arguments back and forth, or we can just wait until Cumbre del Sol. I say the latter. I have well aware of the finishes apart from Del Rey hasnt suited him perfect so far, but my point still stands about Purito Vuelta-2012 had won today. He was just that good that year and I still wonder how he he didnt win that race.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

I thought Martin timed has attack well this time. He's just not as good as Chaves on these stages right now - on stage 2 he tried to follow when Chaves attacked and couldn't go with him

He took fifteen seconds back on Chaves and passed Dumoulin. The notion that Chaves (or Dumoulin) is "just better right now" than Martin (or Valverde or Purito) is just wishful thinking, Chaves is doing great, is a big talent and has excellent form, but today he won through good timing and the failure of any of the big favourites to even attempt to respond until it was too late.

The finish was steep / shallow / steep. 9 times out of 10 at least any move on the first steep section is doomed to failure. Chaves went too early and understandably slowed a bit late on but is insanely good right now. If he'd have gone when Martin went he'd have won by more than he did imo

Anything is of course possible, but the fact remains that once Martin went he pulled back Chaves extremely quickly. Which is what we would normally expect to happen. The reason why early moves are normally doomed is because they are usually made by outsiders who aren't good enough or if they are made by favourites the other favourites respond. Nobody made any effort at all to follow Chaves, when has already shown he is too strong a rider to let take a huge lead. Once one of the favourites went, he was quite a lot faster. Chaves benefited from something Martin often used to benefit from: not being seen as a "real" favourite by the bigger names.

That's not to criticise Chaves, who was strong and clever. But he's not suddenly "better" than the very top Ardennes men.

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Oh, did he win at Huy this year? I didnt know. Holy **** dude.

We can sit here and throw spicy arguments back and forth, or we can just wait until Cumbre del Sol. I say the latter. I have well aware of the finishes apart from Del Rey hasnt suited him perfect so far, but my point still stands about Purito Vuelta-2012 had won today. He was just that good that year and I still wonder how he he didnt win that race.

The Purito-2012 Vuelta version also got beaten by Bala on La Gallina. Or by Gilbert 2x. It's not comparable at all you know, because in 2012 there were some really steep murito's (this year only Cumbre and Ermita), he didn't rode the Tour and had the best preparation period in his life.

Sure he's not as good as in 2012. But where do i say he is? But he's still good enough to win his kind of stages: Ezaro, Huy, Mende, Montelupone etc.....

And in the Vuelta so far, we only had one stage with a similar finish: Caminito del Rey. And in that stage, he dropped Bala and Froome. So to me a sign he will be in the mix for the GC-fight. And that your 'he's past his prime' argument is quite bold.

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Re:

Collective brainfart again. I'm usually not the type to go after cyclists but good lord. How do you let Chaves ride away like that, and look at each others instead. It's not like he's a nobody anymore. Dan Martin, as much as I like him, proving himself not to be the smart rider everyone thinks he is. One can only think he mistimes it on purpose. Props to Lawson Craddock on driving the sheeple up the first half of the climb and setting up a Dumoulin attack.

Painful to watch. Congrats to Chaves, Orica dominates first weeks of GT's.

Two really great points. Tactically, Orica was Aces. When it happened I thought Chaves went too early but he attacked at the steepest part of the climb and rolled on to victory. Simply Brilliant. Additionally, Orica knows there strengths. They understand they currently don't have GT winner so they concentrate on the first week. chapeau.

Also your Dan Martin comment is spot on. He has the power but is lost tactically. Ironically, his tour stage win was against fuglsang who is also tactically inept but Ox strong.

One final note, after watching the Orica Backstage Pass episodes, you can't help but root for Chaves. Seems like a genuinely nice dude.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Oh, did he win at Huy this year? I didnt know. Holy **** dude.

We can sit here and throw spicy arguments back and forth, or we can just wait until Cumbre del Sol. I say the latter. I have well aware of the finishes apart from Del Rey hasnt suited him perfect so far, but my point still stands about Purito Vuelta-2012 had won today. He was just that good that year and I still wonder how he he didnt win that race.

The Purito-2012 Vuelta version also got beaten by Bala on La Gallina. Or by Gilbert 2x. It's not comparable at all you know, because in 2012 there were some really steep murito's (this year only Cumbre and Ermita), he didn't rode the Tour and had the best preparation period in his life.

Sure he's not as good as in 2012. But where do i say he is? But he's still good enough to win his kind of stages: Ezaro, Huy, Mende, Montelupone etc.....

And in the Vuelta so far, we only had one stage with a similar finish: Caminito del Rey. And in that stage, he dropped Bala and Froome. So to me a sign he will be in the mix for the GC-fight. And that your 'he's past his prime' argument is quite bold.

So, you don't think Purito is past his prime?

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

Martin never disappoints.

Too late too late was the cry...

I like the late Dan Martin but his timing is as bad as Roches.

It's genetic.

It has been a nice vignette between Chaves, Dumoulin, Roche and Martin so far. Chaves showed that fortune sometimes favours the brave by going all out from the bottom. I think Dumoulin played his hand well, counterattacking as soon as the road levelled out a bit. As for Danny boy, we'll never know if he had the legs today.

Tomorrow, the rhythm of the race will change. I don't think it's going to be as decisive as PSB in the tour, but some guys will be caught out.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

I thought Martin timed has attack well this time. He's just not as good as Chaves on these stages right now - on stage 2 he tried to follow when Chaves attacked and couldn't go with him

He took fifteen seconds back on Chaves and passed Dumoulin. The notion that Chaves (or Dumoulin) is "just better right now" than Martin (or Valverde or Purito) is just wishful thinking, Chaves is doing great, is a big talent and has excellent form, but today he won through good timing and the failure of any of the big favourites to even attempt to respond until it was too late.

The finish was steep / shallow / steep. 9 times out of 10 at least any move on the first steep section is doomed to failure. Chaves went too early and understandably slowed a bit late on but is insanely good right now. If he'd have gone when Martin went he'd have won by more than he did imo

Anything is of course possible, but the fact remains that once Martin went he pulled back Chaves extremely quickly. Which is what we would normally expect to happen. The reason why early moves are normally doomed is because they are usually made by outsiders who aren't good enough or if they are made by favourites the other favourites respond. Nobody made any effort at all to follow Chaves, when has already shown he is too strong a rider to let take a huge lead. Once one of the favourites went, he was quite a lot faster. Chaves benefited from something Martin often used to benefit from: not being seen as a "real" favourite by the bigger names.

That's not to criticise Chaves, who was strong and clever. But he's not suddenly "better" than the very top Ardennes men.

He doesn't have to be better. Keep in mind what the level is here - in all likelihood pretty low. A lot of the top riders are here but having done the Tour they are probably going to be well below their best. Right now the fresh guys are serving it up to them - that's not really a surprise especially early in the race

Next similar finish is on sunday although a bit harder. Say Chaves attacks early, what do you think Martin should do ? Try and follow as per stage 2 or wait like today? He's been beaten both ways so far but got closer by waiting

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Oh, did he win at Huy this year? I didnt know. Holy **** dude.

We can sit here and throw spicy arguments back and forth, or we can just wait until Cumbre del Sol. I say the latter. I have well aware of the finishes apart from Del Rey hasnt suited him perfect so far, but my point still stands about Purito Vuelta-2012 had won today. He was just that good that year and I still wonder how he he didnt win that race.

The Purito-2012 Vuelta version also got beaten by Bala on La Gallina. Or by Gilbert 2x. It's not comparable at all you know, because in 2012 there were some really steep murito's (this year only Cumbre and Ermita), he didn't rode the Tour and had the best preparation period in his life.

Sure he's not as good as in 2012. But where do i say he is? But he's still good enough to win his kind of stages: Ezaro, Huy, Mende, Montelupone etc.....

And in the Vuelta so far, we only had one stage with a similar finish: Caminito del Rey. And in that stage, he dropped Bala and Froome. So to me a sign he will be in the mix for the GC-fight. And that your 'he's past his prime' argument is quite bold.

So, you don't think Purito is past his prime?

Depends what you understands as 'past his prime'. He's still the best on the finishes, he also was the best in the world in the period 2012/2013.

Perhaps he's not as good anymore in the high mountains.

But i would say he's slightly less/impressive as his 2012/2013 years. But past his prima is way too negative.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Cav is past is prime as well, it doesnt necessarily is purely negative, rather just stating how dominant fx. Cav and Rod were on the respective type of finishes. By Rod's prime I understand 2012 especially + 2013, he is still extremely good, but naturally doesnt have the same kick (or doesnt showcase it as often) like he once did. By the same logic I would argue Contador i past his prime since I am looking at his 2008/2009-2011.

Anyways, this is just worthless arguing over an understanding of a word, but I dont think there is no denying that isnt as good as 2012 (or past his prime...)

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Cav is past is prime as well, it doesnt necessarily is purely negative, rather just stating how dominant fx. Cav and Rod were on the respective type of finishes. By Rod's prime I understand 2012 especially + 2013, he is still extremely good, but naturally doesnt have the same kick (or doesnt showcase it as often) like he once did. By the same logic I would argue Contador i past his prime since I am looking at his 2008/2009-2011.

Anyways, this is just worthless arguing over an understanding of a word, but I dont think there is no denying that isnt as good as 2012 (or past his prime...)

Sure he isn't as good as three years back. But the past 2 years, there are slightly less murito's too to shine.

 

[Escarabajo]

Arredondo, you might be splitting hairs with Purito's performance. Let's wait for the higher mountains and draw better conclusions.

 

[Escarabajo]

Everybody likes Chaves now, but wait if he becomes a GC threat. LOL, we'll see people disliking him.