2016 TdF, Stage 15: Bourg-en-Bresse → Culoz (160km)

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Re: Re:

boasson said:
RattaKuningas said:
boasson said:
RattaKuningas said:
I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
I saw the yellow jersey attacking in the downhill, in the cross winds, at the MTF and in the TT. What do you want more? So the Route is well designed. The problem is: Did you see someone else doing this?

The lack of agressiv riding is not the fault from the stage design, the team from the yellow jersey, the salary of the riders or something else. It's the problem of the mentality of most of the teams and riders.

Why Movistar don't use Valverde to burn the Sky helpers apart? Because he is riding for 4th, 5th or 6th place in the GC. Why BMC don't use TVG to make the race hard and then attack with Porte? Because they are riding for 4th, 5th, or 6th place. Why Quintana didn't attack for 2 weeks? Because he is looking for the 3rd week. Why Tinkoff did not try something with Kreuziger in the breakaway? Because they want the green and the polka dot jersey. Why didn't Katusha ride for Purito in the first 2 weeks to grab some bonus seconds? Because they had no confidence in their own captain.

The only two riders in this TDF who took some risks were Froome and Sagan. Without any trains. On a pretty nice parcours. They were racing. All others were looking and saving energy.
Yes yellow jersey attacked from the downhill but it was hardly a technical downhill and it would've been impossible for Quintana to do anything about it. We have seen Froome do these impressive things (obviously Sagan played a big part in crosswind stage) but have we seen an mtf finish where GC riders have not come to the finish in groups. Do we know who is the best climber as of yet? We don't.
There hasn't been a single mountain stage finish where we can say that one rider was clearly better than others. Porte could easily be a better climber than Froome but we don't know.

And if Movistar want to use Valverde they can use him only once. If Valverde goes and makes a decisive move which will end his overall GC chances he can't do it again.
We saw, that about 10 riders are pretty similar at the climbs. And we saw, that Froome, Porte and Mollema were the best at Ventoux. That Quintana is far away from his best.
You can't see the best climber so far because there is no best climber in the race so far. It's the Tour de France, there are more world class climbers compared to the Giro with Niba, Krujse and Chaves.

Every rider says in the pre-race interviews: "i don't want to lose time today". Thats the big problem.
Then something like Tourmalet finish would help. When the climb is so long and has a good gradient then gaps will appear between the best GC riders. Also when it's a mtf riders won't think about saving energy to keep chasers away on the flats.
Because Mont Ventoux was shortened this year we didn't see obviously what we wanted to see but I think that Tour should have at least 2 climbs each year that are of similar difficulty and both with mtf. It would also help when one of them gets cancelled because of unexpected circumstances.
 
Problem is that superSKY is ruining it when Aru attacked sky was just fine and he had problems to put some time especially Froome protedted by jury with margine good enough, it is so boring that I do not understand some sponsor put money into that
 
Apr 3, 2011
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Põhja Konn said:
Most irritating part of Sky's performance today for me was how they interferred with the fight for lower places on the podium and top five. By bringing back Aru and then Bardet, they did all the work Trek, Orica and BMC should have done, just because they could. And that is also the main reason structural changes (salary caps, smaller teams etc) are needed here and now. Such excessive amount of strenght in one team not only kills entertainment, but more importantly, has undue influence over the parts of the race of which that team has no direct interest in.

No team should be able to control an entire stage, regardless of its nature, let alone an entire GT.
teams max. 6 riders, better 5... still 4 skyborgs in the mountain train if they just get rid of flat-riding guys

but at least a bit of levelling
 
spalco said:
This Charming Man said:
Quintana is racing for second, and is not doing a respectable job of that. Nibali criticized Quintana before...I thought arrogantly, but now I respect the opinn of Nibali, Quintana, should race, only as a domestique.
I disagree. What does another 2nd place mean for Quintana? Nothing. He's doing what he can, but he just doesn't have it.

It looks increasingly like Quintana just isn't who people hoped he was.
Valverde, even after RACING, the Giro, seems more dynamic than Quintana, hopefully, Quinatana is off form, and willprove himself, in the future. Hard to say, also, when we have Froome, showing great form, and confidence, with his dynamic SKY, leading Chris.
 
This Charming Man said:
spalco said:
This Charming Man said:
Quintana is racing for second, and is not doing a respectable job of that. Nibali criticized Quintana before...I thought arrogantly, but now I respect the opinn of Nibali, Quintana, should race, only as a domestique.
I disagree. What does another 2nd place mean for Quintana? Nothing. He's doing what he can, but he just doesn't have it.

It looks increasingly like Quintana just isn't who people hoped he was.
Valverde, even after RACING, the Giro, seems more dynamic than Quintana, hopefully, Quinatana is off form, and willprove himself, in the future. Hard to say, also, when we have Froome, showing great form, and confidence, with his dynamic SKY, leading Chris.
Valverde is incredible, what he is doing after giro like this is awsome
 
Apr 3, 2011
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Cance > TheRest said:
It is not often the case, but Majka really really deserved the win today. Pantano winning wasn't too bad either, and it was evident on top of the Lacets de Grand Colombier, that 20seconds wasn't enough time for Majka on the descent. I'm just happy it wasn't Patrick's boy who won the stage.
Ladies and gentlemen, hats off to Pantano descending!

I was in Culoz today, and climbed Lacets after the stage (crowds and hundreds of bikes still descending) - great climb and views...

But that descent (nobody on this side of mountain, just few camper families dining)... uneven, sometimes sawtooth road surface, bike shaking,rattling, vibrating all the time (and I was on a MTB with my thin road wheels - I know, looks ridiculous - so turned my fork on).

And almost went off exactly inthe same switchback as Majka (very deceptive after long max speed straight). Did not even try any aero on purpose, so did not go over 70 -how can they go over 80 there?

Scared enough, continued carefuly, but still managed to produce rear slide in front of dining family near the camper (MTB brakes too strong). At the bottom, already in Anglefort caught a camper (no cars all downhill! rare on Tour day), had to break heavily till almost stopping, and... scratching sound from my front brake, pads gone (of course, haven't checked for a while).

This should be used for descending championship, narrow road, dirt/soil/rocks here and there, and if it gets wet... Nibs vs. Sagan vs. Bardet vs. Pantano etc.

With no GC battle it could provide some entertainment (send interested non-GC riders one by one and time them ).
 
Aug 6, 2015
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Re: Re:

doperhopper said:
Cance > TheRest said:
It is not often the case, but Majka really really deserved the win today. Pantano winning wasn't too bad either, and it was evident on top of the Lacets de Grand Colombier, that 20seconds wasn't enough time for Majka on the descent. I'm just happy it wasn't Patrick's boy who won the stage.
Ladies and gentlemen, hats off to Pantano descending!

I was in Culoz today, and climbed Lacets after the stage (crowds and hundreds of bikes still descending) - great climb and views...

But that descent (nobody on this side of mountain, just few camper families dining)... uneven, sometimes sawtooth road surface, bike shaking,rattling, vibrating all the time (and I was on a MTB with my thin road wheels - I know, looks ridiculous - so turned my fork on).

And almost went off exactly inthe same switchback as Majka (very deceptive after long max speed straight). Did not even try any aero on purpose, so did not go over 70 -how can they go over 80 there?

Scared enough, continued carefuly, but still managed to produce rear slide in front of dining family near the camper (MTB brakes too strong). At the bottom, already in Anglefort caught a camper (no cars all downhill! rare on Tour day), had to break heavily till almost stopping, and... scratching sound from my front brake, pads gone (of course, haven't checked for a while).

This should be used for descending championship, narrow road, dirt/soil/rocks here and there, and if it gets wet... Nibs vs. Sagan vs. Bardet vs. Pantano etc.

With no GC battle it could provide some entertainment (send interested non-GC riders one by one and time them ).
Last yearSagan dropped pantano in gap quite easily
 
Re: Re:

doperhopper said:
Cance > TheRest said:
It is not often the case, but Majka really really deserved the win today. Pantano winning wasn't too bad either, and it was evident on top of the Lacets de Grand Colombier, that 20seconds wasn't enough time for Majka on the descent. I'm just happy it wasn't Patrick's boy who won the stage.
Ladies and gentlemen, hats off to Pantano descending!

I was in Culoz today, and climbed Lacets after the stage (crowds and hundreds of bikes still descending) - great climb and views...

But that descent (nobody on this side of mountain, just few camper families dining)... uneven, sometimes sawtooth road surface, bike shaking,rattling, vibrating all the time (and I was on a MTB with my thin road wheels - I know, looks ridiculous - so turned my fork on).

And almost went off exactly inthe same switchback as Majka (very deceptive after long max speed straight). Did not even try any aero on purpose, so did not go over 70 -how can they go over 80 there?

Scared enough, continued carefuly, but still managed to produce rear slide in front of dining family near the camper (MTB brakes too strong). At the bottom, already in Anglefort caught a camper (no cars all downhill! rare on Tour day), had to break heavily till almost stopping, and... scratching sound from my front brake, pads gone (of course, haven't checked for a while).

This should be used for descending championship, narrow road, dirt/soil/rocks here and there, and if it gets wet... Nibs vs. Sagan vs. Bardet vs. Pantano etc.

With no GC battle it could provide some entertainment (send interested non-GC riders one by one and time them ).
Dan Martin described that descent today as terrifying.
 
Re:

RattaKuningas said:
I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
+1.

I agree with you. A lot of forum members fight for finish stages on descents. I have never understood that. 90% of the times it kills the action. And the excuse is because of the riders. LOL Go figure.
 
Re:

RattaKuningas said:
I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
+1.

I agree with you. A lot of forum members fight for more stages with finish on descents. I have never understood that. 90% of the times it kills the action. And the excuse is because of the riders. LOL Go figure.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
RattaKuningas said:
I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
+1.

I agree with you. A lot of forum members fight for more stages with finish on descents. I have never understood that. 90% of the times it kills the action. And the excuse is because of the riders. LOL Go figure.
It is the riders. We saw some nice descending in the last two mountain stages of the Giro this year. And the only GC action on a mountain stage in this Tour has come from a descent actually. Sad but true.
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
RattaKuningas said:
I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
+1.

I agree with you. A lot of forum members fight for more stages with finish on descents. I have never understood that. 90% of the times it kills the action. And the excuse is because of the riders. LOL Go figure.
That's Sky's doing.
And the 8k of flat that came afterward.
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

rick james said:
DFA123 said:
Põhja Konn said:
Most irritating part of Sky's performance today for me was how they interferred with the fight for lower places on the podium and top five. By bringing back Aru and then Bardet, they did all the work Trek, Orica and BMC should have done, just because they could. And that is also the main reason structural changes (salary caps, smaller teams etc) are needed here and now. Such excessive amount of strenght in one team not only kills entertainment, but more importantly, has undue influence over the parts of the race of which that team has no direct interest in.

No team should be able to control an entire stage, regardless of its nature, let alone an entire GT.
Agreed, it's such joyless racing. Then every now and again Froome will pull out a circus trick which looks great in a Vine or a GIF- allowing the July fans to eulogise about him. And ASO will be happy because they get the dramatic bits put into a five minutes highlights package which are shown on newspaper sites and global news all around the world.

But the real cycling fans who watch hours of each stage, looking forward to all the details of the race, all the mini-battles, are just left absolutely cold by the lack of competition and suffocating control over the race.
so much hurt in 2 posts
Not to mention the bitterness.
And I love the passive-aggressive imputation that no "real cycling fans" could possibly derive any joy from such a stage.
Delightful.
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
DFA123 said:
They did try. They sent Valverde on an attack. Presumably they told him, rather than just going all in and burning himself out, to ride just above his threshold, at the kind of pace that Quintana could sustain for the remainder of the climb. Once they saw Poels easily reel it in and Froome looking comfortable, they realised that it was hopeless Quintana trying to attack and that he'd likely end up losing time.

Intent and aggression is irrelevant if one rider and his team are putting out significantly more watts than everyone else.

Oh how this race needed Alberto Contador. He'd try.
This * 1000
 
Just finished watching the replay. Like I said. 2004 all over again. When everyone thought that they had Lance figured out coming from the 2003 Tour.

Froome looks too strong.

Need to watch actions for 2nd and 3rd, and white, and mountains.
 
Re: Re:

portugal11 said:
Last yearSagan dropped pantano in gap quite easily
No he didn't. Pantano was the last man he dropped. He took advantage of his power in the straights, on the corners Pantano wasn't as far off. And, you know, Sagan is a beast, both cornering and powering on.
RattaKuningas said:
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
The Tourmalet has been a MTF twice is about 90 passes. I think they consider the summit too narrow for a proper finish area. Also, there are plenty of nice climbs in France to overuse a few.
Escarabajo said:
carton said:
Kokoso said:
Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?
Your impression. I thought they weren't in difficulties, just completely knackered and barely able to hang on.
Were you being sarcastic?
Because you said the same thing as Kokoso!
I was going for a humorous but not sarcastic. I thought he undersold his point.
perico said:
Galic Ho said:
Oh how this race needed Alberto Contador. He'd try.
This * 1000
Not this again. He'd fail. If he tried, which I'm not that confident he would, as he's a pretty smart racer. He got beaten by Thomas in Paris Nice, outclimbed by Henao in Catalunya, and last year was thoroughly matched uphill by Landa in the Giro, and cracked by the Poels "riding tempo" up Alpe d'Huez. He wouldn't even isolate Froome, let alone hurt him.
 
Re: Re:

carton said:
portugal11 said:
Last yearSagan dropped pantano in gap quite easily
No he didn't. Pantano was the last man he dropped. He took advantage of his power in the straights, on the corners Pantano wasn't as far off. And, you know, Sagan is a beast, both cornering and powering on.
RattaKuningas said:
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.
The Tourmalet has been a MTF twice is about 90 passes. I think they consider the summit too narrow for a proper finish area. Also, there are plenty of nice climbs in France to overuse a few.
Escarabajo said:
carton said:
Kokoso said:
Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?
Your impression. I thought they weren't in difficulties, just completely knackered and barely able to hang on.
Were you being sarcastic?
Because you said the same thing as Kokoso!
I was going for a humorous but not sarcastic. I thought he undersold his point.
perico said:
Galic Ho said:
Oh how this race needed Alberto Contador. He'd try.
This * 1000
Not this again. He'd fail. If he tried, which I'm not that confident he would, as he's a pretty smart racer. He got beaten by Thomas in Paris Nice, outclimbed by Henao in Catalunya, and last year was thoroughly matched uphill by Landa in the Giro, and cracked by the Poels "riding tempo" up Alpe d'Huez. He wouldn't even isolate Froome, let alone hurt him.
LOL He finished 5th after attempting the double. Something Nibali can't do. Valverde will end up about the same spot, while he rode the Giro last year injured and still won. Out climbed by Henao at Catalunya? He out climbed Froome there and finished 2nd to Quintana. Henao didn't ride Catalunya.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/volta-ciclista-a-catalunya-2016/stage-7/results/


He beat Quintana at Basque Country, who was also beaten by Henao. While everyone knows that Thomas won Nice due to the lone mountain stage being cancelled to weather.

Now I'm not saying he would beat Froome, but would put up more of a fight than we've seen thus far.
 
One of the problems, aside from the high wattages, is gleaned from a snippet I recall (the gist, not actual words) from TJ on welcoming Richie as co-leader - where he was talking about how this will now mean there will be less pressure to finish (in the top 5, top 10) from BMC for world tour points cos there are now two of them capable of a good finish. I wish I could recall his actual words, but what I took from it is that in many instances it could be team pressure for world tour points, and not necessarily what the rider personally wants.

Obviously not in all cases, as some (many?) riders are totally happy to defend their spot. But I would love the UCI to rethink their world tour points system, as it's contributing to killing the racing.
 
Strong Sky and weak Quintana should share equal responsibility for the lack of GC action. 50 seconds Nairo could put into Froome in the mountains in the last Tour gave him way too big vote of confidence and many fans are simply becoming victims of their high expectations.
 
Re:

dacooley said:
Strong Sky and weak Quintana should share equal responsibility for the lack of GC action. 50 seconds Nairo could put into Froome in the mountains in the last Tour gave him way too big vote of confidence and many fans are simply becoming victims of their high expectations.
Froome and Co. under no pressure today. It's all done. 2nd and third might not be set though.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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I dont even understand how someone can cheer for a rider as shallow as Quintana. Close family and friends sure, but anyone else?
 
Apr 22, 2012
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LeSensei said:
I dont even understand how someone can cheer for a rider as shallow as Quintana. Close family and friends sure, but anyone else?
Shallow? What does that mean, shallow?
 

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