2016 TdF, Stage 15: Bourg-en-Bresse → Culoz (160km)

[arvc40]

Re: Re:

Sky's budget is less than BMC's and Tinkoff's if I remember correctly.

That can't be right. Sky has a massive budget which is why they can afford so many quality domestiques and a multiple Tour winner.

There was a big forum discussion about it, either on here (clinic maybe) or bike radar. Figures quoted definitely showed BMC and Tinkoff was bigger I think.

No, it's not. Sky has 35 millions and Tinkoff 31...I don't know about BMC.

There biggest edge is that they have the diamond in the pack and he's not going anywhere.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Most irritating part of Sky's performance today for me was how they interferred with the fight for lower places on the podium and top five. By bringing back Aru and then Bardet, they did all the work Trek, Orica and BMC should have done, just because they could. And that is also the main reason structural changes (salary caps, smaller teams etc) are needed here and now. Such excessive amount of strenght in one team not only kills entertainment, but more importantly, has undue influence over the parts of the race of which that team has no direct interest in.

No team should be able to control an entire stage, regardless of its nature, let alone an entire GT.

Agreed, it's such joyless racing. Then every now and again Froome will pull out a circus trick which looks great in a Vine or a GIF- allowing the July fans to eulogise about him. And ASO will be happy because they get the dramatic bits put into a five minutes highlights package which are shown on newspaper sites and global news all around the world.

But the real cycling fans who watch hours of each stage, looking forward to all the details of the race, all the mini-battles, are just left absolutely cold by the lack of competition and suffocating control over the race.

so much hurt in 2 posts

Hilarious thing is in fact Quintana is being wholeheartedly supported by quite a small number of posters as overwhelming majority handle him just like weapon able to prevent Froome from winning the Tour. 'Anyone , only not Froome, please'. That's pretty much about it.

Hope is a wonderful thing !

 

[metaCYCLE]

Polska dot jersey

 

[Kokoso]

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

 

[RattaKuningas]

Re:

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

Noticed it too. Had the peloton gone any faster they would've been dropped in my opinion.

 

[carton]

Re:

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

Your impression. I thought they weren't in difficulties, just completely knackered and barely able to hang on.

 

[Miburo]

Great stage, majka got 2nd after all

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

Your impression. I thought they weren't in difficulties, just completely knackered and barely able to hang on.

Yates is a young guy and not too experienced in GTs. He has ridden a great race but I think he will fade in the final week as well as Martin. A bit harder to say with the others in the top 10. TJVG could slide further back but he often has a bad day then bounces back. Porte looked tired as well but is still there.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Yates has sat at the back of the leaders group on every climbing stage so far, and moved forward if and when a major contender attacked. Same again today, except no one attacked.

 

[carton]

Re:

Yates has sat at the back of the leaders group on every climbing stage so far, and moved forward if and when a major contender attacked. Same again today, except no one attacked.

He does have a habit of sitting at the back, but not so far to the extent he was today. He was a couple of wheels out when Meintjes went off the back for a bit. He might've been closing a gap, but it seemed he wasn't that far from cracking.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

We'll see I suppose - couple of rest days now and then a monster finish with guaranteed GC gaps.

 

[carton]

Re:

We'll see I suppose - couple of rest days now and then a monster finish with guaranteed GC gaps.

Yep. In any case I think he has a very good shot at keeping white, he's been really impressive this Tour.

FYI, in his own words:

“Honestly, I was not comfortable but I was also in the maximum trouble. There was no flat in the entire race. It wasn't easy. The hardest part for me was the last climb when Bardet attacked. He went full gas and put me at the limit. I didn't feel great that I could attack and gain some time but it wasn't too bad. We're still here.”

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

Your impression. I thought they weren't in difficulties, just completely knackered and barely able to hang on.

Were you being sarcastic?
Because you said the same thing as Kokoso!

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Was it just my impression or Yates, Martin and Meintjes looked in difficulties today?

Yates rode like Sastre : always at the back. But I don't think he struggled that much.

 

[Fernandez]

Bufff, this Tour is killing me. At least Im glad Pantano won the stage.

 

[RattaKuningas]

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

 

[LeoMontero]

Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

I agree,

 

[Anderis]

Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

Everybody would still be waiting for the final climb and then people would complain the action only takes place for the last 3-4kms of each stage and the route should be changed.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Would've liked to see Ala contest the sprint, but Pantano earned that one IMO. He brought big deficits back on both of the final 2 descents. Majka probably spent too many matches following Zakarin. He should've waited for the Lacets to make the difference uphill.

Even though TJ is only 20 sec behind Porte, he should sacrifice his GC and try to launch Porte on one of the mountain stages.

I don't think they'll do that. Porte has to finish a tour first and prove that he's not going to crack spectacularly on at least one day in the final week, before he will get riders like TJVG sacrificing their own top 10 position for him.

Disagree. If Porte was going to crack I think we would have seen that by now - probably today. Considering his setbacks I think he's earned BMC and Tejay's support to push for a possible podium. Why would you wait to see where he ends up in Paris, if he finishes 4th or 5th without Tejay's support it means BMC could have got themselves a podium by supporting Richie. By not supporting Porte now BMC will certainly guarantee zero return.

 

[RattaKuningas]

Re: Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

Everybody would still be waiting for the final climb and then people would complain the action only takes place for the last 3-4kms of each stage and the route should be changed.

I'd take last 3-4kms GC fighting over what we had today.

 

[boasson]

Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

I saw the yellow jersey attacking in the downhill, in the cross winds, at the MTF and in the TT. What do you want more? So the Route is well designed. The problem is: Did you see someone else doing this?

The lack of agressiv riding is not the fault from the stage design, the team from the yellow jersey, the salary of the riders or something else. It's the problem of the mentality of most of the teams and riders.

Why Movistar don't use Valverde to burn the Sky helpers apart? Because he is riding for 4th, 5th or 6th place in the GC. Why BMC don't use TVG to make the race hard and then attack with Porte? Because they are riding for 4th, 5th, or 6th place. Why Quintana didn't attack for 2 weeks? Because he is looking for the 3rd week. Why Tinkoff did not try something with Kreuziger in the breakaway? Because they want the green and the polka dot jersey. Why didn't Katusha ride for Purito in the first 2 weeks to grab some bonus seconds? Because they had no confidence in their own captain.

The only two riders in this TDF who took some risks were Froome and Sagan. Without any trains. On a pretty nice parcours. They were racing. All others were looking and saving energy.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

for all idiots complaining about lack of GC action : if a domestique is doing 350+ watts at the front you cannot attack from that

just so you know why the tour is boring

The only counter attack to this is 5 or 6 man teams. Something which needs to happen ASAP!

Salary caps

Salary caps are not enforceable. They are extremely difficult to police even in sports competitions that only take place in one country with one legal system and involving teams that are large and stable institutions. Even in those circumstances a cottage industry in ways to circumvent a cap tends to quickly spring up. In a sport with pro teams spread across a couple of dozen countries, each with their own legal system, and some teams having links to national governments and/or dubious oligarchs? It would be purely decorative.

To add to this: tax systems differ wildly between different countries. Even if Ag2r-La Mondiale had exactly the same budget as Sky, they wouldn't be able to pay anywhere near the same amount in salaries, because they have to pay an awful lot in payroll tax. So a salary cap would not only be unworkable, but practically ineffectual; teams like FDJ which practically speaking have to be domiciled in France would probably be at even more of a disadvantage to the superteams, which would all mysteriously have head offices in Jersey or Lichtenstein, than they are now.

 

[RattaKuningas]

Re: Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

I saw the yellow jersey attacking in the downhill, in the cross winds, at the MTF and in the TT. What do you want more? So the Route is well designed. The problem is: Did you see someone else doing this?

The lack of agressiv riding is not the fault from the stage design, the team from the yellow jersey, the salary of the riders or something else. It's the problem of the mentality of most of the teams and riders.

Why Movistar don't use Valverde to burn the Sky helpers apart? Because he is riding for 4th, 5th or 6th place in the GC. Why BMC don't use TVG to make the race hard and then attack with Porte? Because they are riding for 4th, 5th, or 6th place. Why Quintana didn't attack for 2 weeks? Because he is looking for the 3rd week. Why Tinkoff did not try something with Kreuziger in the breakaway? Because they want the green and the polka dot jersey. Why didn't Katusha ride for Purito in the first 2 weeks to grab some bonus seconds? Because they had no confidence in their own captain.

The only two riders in this TDF who took some risks were Froome and Sagan. Without any trains. On a pretty nice parcours. They were racing. All others were looking and saving energy.

Yes yellow jersey attacked from the downhill but it was hardly a technical downhill and it would've been impossible for Quintana to do anything about it. We have seen Froome do these impressive things (obviously Sagan played a big part in crosswind stage) but have we seen an mtf finish where GC riders have not come to the finish in groups. Do we know who is the best climber as of yet? We don't.
There hasn't been a single mountain stage finish where we can say that one rider was clearly better than others. Porte could easily be a better climber than Froome but we don't know. Mont Ventoux obviously was shortened and that changed everything but in 2 weeks we should have at least 2 decent and long mountain finishes.

And if Movistar want to use Valverde they can use him only once. If Valverde goes and makes a decisive move which will end his overall GC chances he can't do it again.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

It is not often the case, but Majka really really deserved the win today. Pantano winning wasn't too bad either, and it was evident on top of the Lacets de Grand Colombier, that 20seconds wasn't enough time for Majka on the descent. I'm just happy it wasn't Patrick's boy who won the stage.

 

[boasson]

Re: Re:

I think Tour needs to completely change their stage designs also and make things harder. I mean why would you put a flat finish to a hard climbing day. If Lacets du Grand Colombier had been a mtf today then we would've seen some good GC action but no. It seems like Tour is designed for a strongest train. The only result is that GC conteders might make small attacks to see what happens but nothing more because on flat they would be chased by everyone.
I mean Tour de France needs full Mont Ventoux, Alpe D'Huez and Tourmalet mtf.

I saw the yellow jersey attacking in the downhill, in the cross winds, at the MTF and in the TT. What do you want more? So the Route is well designed. The problem is: Did you see someone else doing this?

The lack of agressiv riding is not the fault from the stage design, the team from the yellow jersey, the salary of the riders or something else. It's the problem of the mentality of most of the teams and riders.

Why Movistar don't use Valverde to burn the Sky helpers apart? Because he is riding for 4th, 5th or 6th place in the GC. Why BMC don't use TVG to make the race hard and then attack with Porte? Because they are riding for 4th, 5th, or 6th place. Why Quintana didn't attack for 2 weeks? Because he is looking for the 3rd week. Why Tinkoff did not try something with Kreuziger in the breakaway? Because they want the green and the polka dot jersey. Why didn't Katusha ride for Purito in the first 2 weeks to grab some bonus seconds? Because they had no confidence in their own captain.

The only two riders in this TDF who took some risks were Froome and Sagan. Without any trains. On a pretty nice parcours. They were racing. All others were looking and saving energy.

Yes yellow jersey attacked from the downhill but it was hardly a technical downhill and it would've been impossible for Quintana to do anything about it. We have seen Froome do these impressive things (obviously Sagan played a big part in crosswind stage) but have we seen an mtf finish where GC riders have not come to the finish in groups. Do we know who is the best climber as of yet? We don't.
There hasn't been a single mountain stage finish where we can say that one rider was clearly better than others. Porte could easily be a better climber than Froome but we don't know.

And if Movistar want to use Valverde they can use him only once. If Valverde goes and makes a decisive move which will end his overall GC chances he can't do it again.

We saw, that about 10 riders are pretty similar at the climbs. And we saw, that Froome, Porte and Mollema were the best at Ventoux. That Quintana is far away from his best.
You can't see the best climber so far because there is no best climber in the race so far. It's the Tour de France, there are more world class climbers compared to the Giro with Niba, Krujse and Chaves.

Every rider says in the pre-race interviews: "i don't want to lose time today". Thats the big problem.