2016 Vuelta a España, stage 11: Colunga > Peña Cabarga

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Re: Re:

carton said:
burning said:
It is definitely not fantasy, that is what I saw while watching these races as well. Whoever crosses the line first wins that race, I don't care about anything else.
This is why we can't have nice things.

If someone cheated their way into something, they didn't really achieve it. Was everyone cheating? No. Where most of them? Who knows. Contador got caught and stripped of his results. That's the actual bottom line. The rest is fantasy.
This is getting clinic area but based on the historic evidence in all sports, my answer to that question is "Yes for every relevant/top tier athlete", so I only care about what I see while I am watching, nothing else.
 
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Arredondo said:
A 'tired' Valverde who is working for Quintana is even better then Contador.

That's embarassing.
Valverde is never tired...

Anyway I dont really see Valverde better than Contador, although this route with good weather is perfect for Valverde. The important stage is Aubisque.

But Valverde at the level he was in Tour 2015 is similar or even better than Contador (he need hot). It was with Contador after Giro, but it would be as well without Giro...Contador is not the best rider, but he has lot of capabilities, one of them recovery (the same Froome, Valverde, and I would say Quintana)
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
This is getting clinic area but based on the historic evidence in all sports, my answer to that question is "Yes for every relevant/top tier athlete", so I only care about what I see while I am watching, nothing else.
Yep but that's a matter for the clinic. I definitely don't think Contador was the only cheat. But, in here, as I understand it, the results stand as they stand. The correspond to reality.
LaFlorecita said:
No, the bottom line is Contador was the winner of those stages and races. That is not fantasy, it is reality.
He was stripped. It's like saying you still own a house you sold a while ago. You don't. Them's just the facts. If you still believe it, I respect that, but it's just no longer factual. It may have been entertaining and dramatic and awesome experience. The memories and the footage might be beautiful and might make you feel all kinds of things. That's fine. But the result is that those things are no longer a tangible feature of reality. The house is no longer yours. Those wins are no longer Contador's.
 
Lets stop all those Contador fan boys from saying he is the greatest GT rider of his generation. Its Lance Armstrong.
Because the bottom line is Armstrong was the winner of those stages and races. That is not fantasy, it is reality.
 
SKY has so good riders than if one day all of them are in his best shape that would be carnage.

Sometimes Thomas is very powerfull, some times Landa, some times Henao, sometimes Koning,..at least they are not always at the ame time at his best...
 
Re: Re:

carton said:
burning said:
This is getting clinic area but based on the historic evidence in all sports, my answer to that question is "Yes for every relevant/top tier athlete", so I only care about what I see while I am watching, nothing else.
Yep but that's a matter for the clinic. I definitely don't think Contador was the only cheat. But, in here, as I understand it, the results stand as they stand. The correspond to reality.
LaFlorecita said:
No, the bottom line is Contador was the winner of those stages and races. That is not fantasy, it is reality.
He was stripped. It's like saying you still own a house you sold a while ago. You don't. Them's just the facts. If you still believe it, I respect that, but it's just no longer factual. It may have been entertaining and dramatic and awesome experience. The memories and the footage might be beautiful and might make you feel all kinds of things. That's fine. But the result is that those things are no longer a tangible feature of reality. The house is no longer yours. Those wins are no longer Contador's.
Listen, it's simple. I saw him win those races. You can find it on the internet, on Youtube, on Google. Until someone can prove to me he had an unfair advantage in those races compared to his direct opponents, I will consider those victories rightfully his. You can say only won 7 GTs, for all I care you can claim he won 0. I can't give a single ***. So please let me have my opinion as well.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
carton said:
burning said:
This is getting clinic area but based on the historic evidence in all sports, my answer to that question is "Yes for every relevant/top tier athlete", so I only care about what I see while I am watching, nothing else.
Yep but that's a matter for the clinic. I definitely don't think Contador was the only cheat. But, in here, as I understand it, the results stand as they stand. The correspond to reality.
LaFlorecita said:
No, the bottom line is Contador was the winner of those stages and races. That is not fantasy, it is reality.
He was stripped. It's like saying you still own a house you sold a while ago. You don't. Them's just the facts. If you still believe it, I respect that, but it's just no longer factual. It may have been entertaining and dramatic and awesome experience. The memories and the footage might be beautiful and might make you feel all kinds of things. That's fine. But the result is that those things are no longer a tangible feature of reality. The house is no longer yours. Those wins are no longer Contador's.
Listen, it's simple. I saw him win those races. You can find it on the internet, on Youtube, on Google. Until someone can prove to me he had an unfair advantage in those races compared to his direct opponents, I will consider those victories rightfully his. You can say only won 7 GTs, for all I care you can claim he won 0. I can't give a single ****. So please let me have my opinion as well.
You can have your opinion, of course. But this is a discussion of facts.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
carton said:
burning said:
This is getting clinic area but based on the historic evidence in all sports, my answer to that question is "Yes for every relevant/top tier athlete", so I only care about what I see while I am watching, nothing else.
Yep but that's a matter for the clinic. I definitely don't think Contador was the only cheat. But, in here, as I understand it, the results stand as they stand. The correspond to reality.
LaFlorecita said:
No, the bottom line is Contador was the winner of those stages and races. That is not fantasy, it is reality.
He was stripped. It's like saying you still own a house you sold a while ago. You don't. Them's just the facts. If you still believe it, I respect that, but it's just no longer factual. It may have been entertaining and dramatic and awesome experience. The memories and the footage might be beautiful and might make you feel all kinds of things. That's fine. But the result is that those things are no longer a tangible feature of reality. The house is no longer yours. Those wins are no longer Contador's.
Listen, it's simple. I saw him win those races. You can find it on the internet, on Youtube, on Google. Until someone can prove to me he had an unfair advantage in those races compared to his direct opponents, I will consider those victories rightfully his. You can say only won 7 GTs, for all I care you can claim he won 0. I can't give a single ****. So please let me have my opinion as well.
He was cheating in those races to people as Evans , or Sastre, Wiggins, or looking at today maybe to Valverde, who is stronger sometimes with more age.

it is true he wanst cheatingm but the contrary, they were cheating him, lot of directs oponets as Andy, Ricco, Rujano, (of course Rasmusen, but he wanst a rival finnally) etc...and the doubt with people as Menchov, Scarponi,...

(this is not proper of this part of the forum, but I just followed conversation, I dont have probloem to go on in other place, althogh I like to tal just here)

He won those races, but we cant count them to measure how good is Contador.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
TMP402 said:
I once won a 100m race in 2 seconds. People saw. It happened.
I guess you saw Rujano chasing a ghost on Etna. By the way, if you think that riders should get stripped from their victories, thats fine but dont come up with a ridiculous argument like in your post.
In this fact-free world, I can provide any example I like.
 
Re: Re:

TMP402 said:
burning said:
TMP402 said:
I once won a 100m race in 2 seconds. People saw. It happened.
I guess you saw Rujano chasing a ghost on Etna. By the way, if you think that riders should get stripped from their victories, thats fine but dont come up with a ridiculous argument like in your post.
In this fact-free world, I can provide any example I like.
Nope it is not fact free, many people saw what happened in Etna, nobody saw whatever thing you said
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
TMP402 said:
burning said:
TMP402 said:
I once won a 100m race in 2 seconds. People saw. It happened.
I guess you saw Rujano chasing a ghost on Etna. By the way, if you think that riders should get stripped from their victories, thats fine but dont come up with a ridiculous argument like in your post.
In this fact-free world, I can provide any example I like.
Nope it is not fact free, many people saw what happened in Etna, nobody saw whatever thing you said
So your barrier for truth is "many people" seeing it?
 
Re: Re:

TMP402 said:
burning said:
TMP402 said:
burning said:
TMP402 said:
I once won a 100m race in 2 seconds. People saw. It happened.
I guess you saw Rujano chasing a ghost on Etna. By the way, if you think that riders should get stripped from their victories, thats fine but dont come up with a ridiculous argument like in your post.
In this fact-free world, I can provide any example I like.
Nope it is not fact free, many people saw what happened in Etna, nobody saw whatever thing you said
So your barrier for truth is "many people" seeing it?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ycRwxWufmQc

Feel free to believe that Rujano wheelsucked a ghost or Klöden won a stage in 2004 Tour, I am not going to do that
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Listen, it's simple. I saw him win those races. You can find it on the internet, on Youtube, on Google. Until someone can prove to me he had an unfair advantage in those races compared to his direct opponents, I will consider those victories rightfully his. You can say only won 7 GTs, for all I care you can claim he won 0. I can't give a single ****. So please let me have my opinion as well.
I respect your opinion. In my opinion, the number should be either 8 or 0. But my opinion is ultimately irrelevant, the fact is, he has won 7 as of today. And as TMP alluded to, we're entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts.
 
Contador's results between July 2010 and February 2012 have been officially voided.
Saying he still won those races that has been voided is also saying Armstrong won 7 Tour de Frances.
 
Re:

wwabbit said:
Contador's results between July 2010 and February 2012 have been officially voided.
Saying he still won those races that has been voided is also saying Armstrong won 7 Tour de Frances.
Do you think that Indurain won 5 Tours and 2 Giros? If your answer is no, then who is the winner for these races?
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ycRwxWufmQc

Feel free to believe that Rujano wheelsucked a ghost or Klöden won a stage in 2004 Tour, I am not going to do that
I'm so glad you brought up ghosts, because under your rules - many people saw it - they exist.
 
Re: Re:

TMP402 said:
burning said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ycRwxWufmQc

Feel free to believe that Rujano wheelsucked a ghost or Klöden won a stage in 2004 Tour, I am not going to do that
I'm so glad you brought up ghosts, because under your rules - many people saw it - they exist.
Nope, there is no objective evidence about ghosts, you are just doing a textbook strawman.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Re: Re:

It's fine to concoct subjective rules and evaluate things with respect to those rules. There are no thought crimes.

But in the real world, we have definite procedures to determine the outcome of a contest, and Contador no more won the Giro in 2011 and the Tour in 2010 than Al Gore won the US Presidency in 2000.
 
Re: Re:

SeriousSam said:
It's fine to concoct subjective rules and evaluate things with respect to those rules. There are no thought crimes.

But in the real world, we have definite procedures to determine the outcome of a contest, and Contador no more won the Giro in 2011 and the Tour in 2010 than Al Gore won the US Presidency in 2000.
Was Al Gore named the president only to have that title withdrawn a year or 2 later?
 
Re: Re:

SeriousSam said:
It's fine to concoct subjective rules and evaluate things with respect to those rules. There are no thought crimes.

But in the real world, we have definite procedures to determine the outcome of a contest, and Contador no more won the Giro in 2011 and the Tour in 2010 than Al Gore won the US Presidency in 2000.
Can you give an "definite" answer who won 2001 Tour by your "definite" procedure? You can not, so your procedure is not definite at all. For Al Gore, I probably missed the part when he won the US Presidency, but I guess you think that he won at some point.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
wwabbit said:
Contador's results between July 2010 and February 2012 have been officially voided.
Saying he still won those races that has been voided is also saying Armstrong won 7 Tour de Frances.
Do you think that Indurain won 5 Tours and 2 Giros? If your answer is no, then who is the winner for these races?
According to http://www.giroditalia.it/eng/albo-doro/ Indurain won the Giro in 1992 and 1993.
According to http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2016/us/history/ Indurain won the Tour in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995

I have no evidence to believe that anyone else won those races.
 
Re: Re:

wwabbit said:
burning said:
wwabbit said:
Contador's results between July 2010 and February 2012 have been officially voided.
Saying he still won those races that has been voided is also saying Armstrong won 7 Tour de Frances.
Do you think that Indurain won 5 Tours and 2 Giros? If your answer is no, then who is the winner for these races?
According to http://www.giroditalia.it/eng/albo-doro/ Indurain won the Giro in 1992 and 1993.
According to http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2016/us/history/ Indurain won the Tour in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995

I have no evidence to believe that anyone else won those races.
So, please explain what is the difference between Armstrong and Indurain. Both won their Grand Tours with clinic stuff, the only difference is that Indurain is a silent guy and not a bully, so he has no enemies who would testify against him. For me, this is not a difference when it comes to cycling on road, so they both won their GT's.
 

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