2017 Liège-Bastogne-Liège - April 23rd - 258k

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

Lots of Valverde haters complaining about the parcours but, is there any kind of parcours for Liege where Valverde wouldnt be the favourite?

There's been almost no action (at least by top contenders) until like 1 km to go and your takeaway is that Valverde has haters?

A LOT of them

Of course he has haters but there has been almost no hate thrown his way after this race. It's all been directed at the course, other riders, and directeur sportifs.

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

I don't think so. Not if the race played out exactly the same way. You're reading too much into the course complaints. For the most part they aren't even by the traditional Bala haters. I'm a fan and I also agree the race wasn't great and it's probably time to shake things up a bit.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

 

[Fernandez]

Sometimes people is contradictory here. They all hate doping, but they all expect performances like Gilberts Flandes; and them they all go to the clinic to criticize it.

 

[SeriousSam]

Too bad there wasn't some late attacker who was caught just in time, which is of course the only source of entertainment in races not won with a long, dominant solo.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

That's why Gerrans was so praised three years ago.

If by some miracle Bardet had won that race, that would still be a meh victory comparatively to the race history.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

That's why Gerrans was so praised three years ago.

If by some miracle Bardet had won that race, that would still be a meh victory comparatively to the race history.

Yeah, cos Gerrans has loads of fanboys around here, right?

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Sometimes people is contradictory here. They all hate doping, but they all expect performances like Gilberts Flandes; and them they all go to the clinic to criticize it.

The contradiction only exists in your head. There's no correlation between how clean a race is and how boring/conservative it is.

 

[Alexandre B.]

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

 

[Velolover2]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

Wouldn't have been any different if Matthews, Felline or GVA would have won. People would have been outraged at the lack of attacks from the GC riders.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Sometimes people is contradictory here. They all hate doping, but they all expect performances like Gilberts Flandes; and them they all go to the clinic to criticize it.

The contradiction only exists in your head. There's no correlation between how clean a race is and how boring/conservative it is.

You dont believe that.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

I think whining about the course because a rider wins who you don't like is far worse. Valverde was the only rider who rode the perfect race - he was basically in control of the situation for the entire 260km - so to criticize the way he rode is ludicrous.

Fortunately, I think most posters here aren't quite that one-eyed and are focusing more on the entertainment - which was certainly lacking. For me , its overwhelmingly the fault of the other favourites rather than the course - the likes of Sky and Orica - as well as the better climbers like Costa, Bardet and Uran who were completely anonymous. All of their tactics were awful if they were actually looking to win the race.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Sometimes people is contradictory here. They all hate doping, but they all expect performances like Gilberts Flandes; and them they all go to the clinic to criticize it.

The contradiction only exists in your head. There's no correlation between how clean a race is and how boring/conservative it is.

You dont believe that.

Of course I do. Furthermore, I think it's obvious.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way Valverde won.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

Wouldn't have been any different if Matthews, Felline or GVA would have won. People would have been outraged at the lack of attacks from the GC riders.

Come on, if Contador had won how Valverde did, this would go down as one of the all time legendary wins for many on the forum. Same as if Sagan would have won somehow. Of course, not everyone is a fanboy, but I think a lot of people have their perception of a race shaped by who wins, as much of how it is won.

Just look at people claiming that the WC last year was a good race, just because their favourite won.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Sometimes people is contradictory here. They all hate doping, but they all expect performances like Gilberts Flandes; and them they all go to the clinic to criticize it.

The contradiction only exists in your head. There's no correlation between how clean a race is and how boring/conservative it is.

You dont believe that.

Of course I do. Furthermore, I think it's obvious.

Not so, these are 260 kms of hard race and you expect people attacking everywhere... There is a limit.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way Valverde won.

If the winner of Liège-Bastogne-Liège put his nose in the wind for only 200m, there's probably something wrong, or at least problematic. Whoever won.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

Wouldn't have been any different if Matthews, Felline or GVA would have won. People would have been outraged at the lack of attacks from the GC riders.

Come on, if Contador had won how Valverde did, this would go down as one of the all time legendary wins for many on the forum. Same as if Sagan would have won somehow. Of course, not everyone is a fanboy, but I think a lot of people have their perception of a race shaped by who wins, as much of how it is won.

Just look at people claiming that the WC last year was a good race, just because their favourite won.

Imagined truths are often the best arguments

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

But Sagan is not wheelsucker and Contador can not stay on his bike so those scenarios are really just your fantasy.Maybe replace Sagan with one guy from BMC and Contador with very skinny guy from SKY and then your scenario is more realistic.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Lots of Valverde haters complaining about the parcours but, is there any kind of parcours for Liege where Valverde wouldnt be the favourite?

Nobody is blaming Valverde. People are blaming the race organizers for the terrible course.

We should put some blame on the riders and directeur sportifs as well. That said, several riders tried to get away. The headwind didn't help things.

Most blame, imo. Just like at Fleche, it seemed like many were just riding for decent position, and a few good WT points so their team car can get a nice view of races during the season. If the strongest teams in the race like Sky and Quickstep aren't go to do something with the threat of Valverde on Ans looming, I find it difficult to see them doing something about the threat of a reduced bunch sprint on a flat run in.

I mostly agree with your posts on this thread, but I can't really agree with the implication that Quickstep were riding for a good position here or in Flèche. In Flèche they made the only strong attack of the race while knowing that they had the second strongest puncheur in the field waiting for Huy. That was exactly the right strategy. In LBL, they had Martin do his thing at the bottom of the climb to Ans, a move which has led to a win once, a probable win derailed by a fall once and a second place once. If Valverde has a slightly off day or leaves Martin too big a gap or tries to sucker someone else into chasing, all of which are reasonable possibilities, Martin wins. Given that they were missing two riders who are probably the fourth and fifth biggest favourites behind Valverde, Martin and Kwiatkowski, so it was all in for Martin, they are one of only two teams in this race who should be trying to make the race boring.

Every team other than Quickstep and Movistar really should take a long look at themselves. The race was over for them before the climb to Ans started. Martin is the only rider entitled to think he has a shot from there not named Valverde. Everyone else is dead meat and they have no excuse for not knowing it.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way Valverde won.

If the winner of Liège-Bastogne-Liège put his nose in the wind for only 200m, there's probably something wrong, or at least problematic. Whoever won.

To be fair though, he had not just his nose in the wind for the last 200m, but his chest, stomach and arms as well with that prolonged victory celebration.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Not so, these are 260 kms of hard race and you expect people attacking everywhere... There is a limit.

"Attacking everywhere".
Dude, they attacked with like 1 km to go. Whatever your "limit" is, that's patently not it.

 

[Ramon Koran]

Don't think the course is responsable, we've seen great races in liege, notably up untill 2012, it's more a case of Valverde being so dominant and no one being strong enough to attack and stay away, henao tried and failed so did wellens, Kreuziger... give it a couple of years and Valverde will not be as strong and hopefully some riders will step up and then will get exciting racing again. Let's not forget only a couple of years ago the cobbled races were being won by sprinters and the action wasn't great ( remember Paris Roubaix 2014?). It happens in grand tours as well the tour was awful during us postal years then got pretty good until sky came along, no doubt in a few years it will become interesting again. Changing the route is not the solution msr is regularly awful the route hasn't changed,

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Well, Cannondale and Cofidis tried to get the action going, but to no avail. Valverde took advantage. Congrats to the Spaniard.
The show was dull.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There would be way less complaining if their favourites had won it.

Vmt. Could you imagine if Sagan had raced; if he'd have wheelsucked and won a sprint up Ans. Or if Contador would have done what Valverde did on the final climb? This would suddenly be the best course ever for a lot of the forum.

But Sagan is not wheelsucker and Contador can not stay on his bike so those scenarios are really just your fantasy.Maybe replace Sagan with one guy from BMC and Contador with very skinny guy from SKY and then your scenario is more realistic.

I think the point may have gone over your head. Obviously I'm not suggesting either of those could ever win a race like Liege. Simply that perceptions of a race and evaluation of the course are shaped by their like or dislike for the winner. If Contador or Sagan win a race - even if they were at the front for only the last 500m, many would regard that as a great victory and a good race (see, for example, Sagan's two WC wins) - even it was objectively dull.

This race was clearly dull and not a good edition. But it's crazy to blame Valverde for that, and also I don't think it's the fault of the course. There are more than enough places to put in a peloton splitting attack in the last 40km for anyone who doesn't just want to ride for a top 10.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Not so, these are 260 kms of hard race and you expect people attacking everywhere... There is a limit.

"Attacking everywhere".
Dude, they attacked with like 1 km to go. Whatever your "limit" is, that's patently not it.

You looks like you lost the point