2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 25

[MichalJ]

Not everything Sagan says he actually means. And sometimes journalists changes what he says or selects only thing they think is most interesting.

In that interview, when he said show is more important, what was reported as main story, he firstly said "important is to win, how you win, doesn't matter". But that is a lot less interesting than that sentence with show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AGQ7lT8RfA start at 0:55

 

[Salvarani]

Re:

Not everything Sagan says he actually means. And sometimes journalists changes what he says or selects only thing they think is most interesting.

In that interview, when he said show is more important, what was reported as main story, he firstly said "important is to win, how you win, doesn't matter". But that is a lot less interesting than that sentence with show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AGQ7lT8RfA start at 0:55

Facts, love it.

And just like the journalists... many posters on here seem to take one line and run with it to create their narrative about someone.

 

[Netserk]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

I often disagree with Pisti, especially when it comes to his Valverde hate, but I think everything he wrote on the last few pages was 100% true. No problem if Sagan wins Gent Wevelgem like today, just like there is no problem if Kwiat wins MSR like he did last year. But if you ride only caring about the win and without being a showman (which is perfectly fine) don't claim you are a big showman. Facts are, the last race Sagan won solo was the ronde two years ago. The last race he won in a sprint out of a small group was Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne 2017 which is also well over a year ago. Since then he has only won in bunch or reduced bunch sprints. For a rider who claims to ride for the fans, to make a big show and who wouldn't want to win after passive riding that is a very very long time.
I like Sagan and if he gets his tactics right, I'm happy about that. I would have preferred a solo winner but in the sprint I was rooting for him, so don't call me a Sagan hater. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy about everything he says.

Do you think they were equivalent in this regard?

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

I often disagree with Pisti, especially when it comes to his Valverde hate, but I think everything he wrote on the last few pages was 100% true. No problem if Sagan wins Gent Wevelgem like today, just like there is no problem if Kwiat wins MSR like he did last year. But if you ride only caring about the win and without being a showman (which is perfectly fine) don't claim you are a big showman. Facts are, the last race Sagan won solo was the ronde two years ago. The last race he won in a sprint out of a small group was Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne 2017 which is also well over a year ago. Since then he has only won in bunch or reduced bunch sprints. For a rider who claims to ride for the fans, to make a big show and who wouldn't want to win after passive riding that is a very very long time.
I like Sagan and if he gets his tactics right, I'm happy about that. I would have preferred a solo winner but in the sprint I was rooting for him, so don't call me a Sagan hater. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy about everything he says.

Do you think they were equivalent in this regard?

No, definitely not. But the whole discussion afterwards wasn't really about that specific MSR anymore but rather about whether he is as aggressive as he claims (and I'm pretty sure he said he is a showman who rides for the fans more than once)

 

[tomorrow]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

I often disagree with Pisti, especially when it comes to his Valverde hate, but I think everything he wrote on the last few pages was 100% true. No problem if Sagan wins Gent Wevelgem like today, just like there is no problem if Kwiat wins MSR like he did last year. But if you ride only caring about the win and without being a showman (which is perfectly fine) don't claim you are a big showman. Facts are, the last race Sagan won solo was the ronde two years ago. The last race he won in a sprint out of a small group was Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne 2017 which is also well over a year ago. Since then he has only won in bunch or reduced bunch sprints. For a rider who claims to ride for the fans, to make a big show and who wouldn't want to win after passive riding that is a very very long time.
I like Sagan and if he gets his tactics right, I'm happy about that. I would have preferred a solo winner but in the sprint I was rooting for him, so don't call me a Sagan hater. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy about everything he says.

Maybe you should be more fair and count the aggresivness in races hi didn't won. Last years tour de pologne and eneco, hell even Roubaix he was aggressive, and especially the long range attack with bodnar, oss an one other rider could get interesting weren't it for the flat tyre.

I don't like his whining in the media too, but as I am aware how medias work, and with Sagan's bad English, I'm not judgemental.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Good win for Sagan. For most riders winning one of the biggest non monument classics would make their whole season, but obviously expectations are higher for him. I agree with those who have been arguing that we can’t really tell a lot about anyone’s Ronde or Roubaix prospects from a race that was relatively easy today.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

Where did I say Gilbert's WC win was an example of aggressive riding?

i don't care if a cyclist rides passive by the way, but don't make the kind of statements Sagan has lately made then ("I wouldn't want to win like Kwiatko or "I don't care about victories, the show is more important").

You're all completely misunderstanding me. I'm NOT upset with how Sagan won the race, but the comments he makes after he loses a race.

Arguing for the sake of arguing...
You were a history major, weren't you?

Great argument.

So none of you care when Sagan says "I don't care about victories, the show is more important" when he continues to win races by hiding until the final KMs?

He does whine a bit too much at times, especially the Kwiatkowski San Remo comments didn't really make sense. He was in a group with two guys who were barely keeping his wheel and had sprinters behind them.

But it must be annoying for Sagan having the whole of the peloton looking at him. Especially Greg has made a career of stucking to the wheel of Sagan. A shame really, since with his qualities he shouldn't ride so cowardly.

 

[yaco]

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Not everything Sagan says he actually means. And sometimes journalists changes what he says or selects only thing they think is most interesting.

In that interview, when he said show is more important, what was reported as main story, he firstly said "important is to win, how you win, doesn't matter". But that is a lot less interesting than that sentence with show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AGQ7lT8RfA start at 0:55

Facts, love it.

And just like the journalists... many posters on here seem to take one line and run with it to create their narrative about someone.

This needs to be seen more.

The discussion is about Sagan's whining/hypocrisy? Not sure that a year later, one comment (that contradicts another) a year after a big loss reveals his entire worldview.

He has complained about riders sitting on him after other tough losses in the past, but from my memory they were low-key complaints and possibly valid opinons. Not any kind of gun slinging, trash talk or whining.

I'd say (again, from memory) that he shows just as many concessions to better riders/riding, like his compliments to Nibali this year.

 

[DonEsteban]

What yaco was saying is that Sagan has excellent racing instinct _for sprint finishes_, and this is certainly true - he had no business winning in Doha (that was for pure sprinters), but he still did it.

His longer-distance from finish tactics leave a lot to be desired, however, very often he is put into impossible situation where he loses if chases and drags others, loses if he does not chase... he clearly does not enjoy such tactical games and pays for it dearly ... and it is made visible even more by the fact that he is almost always in the game ... unlike others (say GVA, KWIA, Gilbert, ...) who are nowhere to be seen half of the time.

And your last sentence is totally out of whack - Sagan's niche is one of the widest ones, but he has made disproportionately little out of it

 

[d-s3]

Re: Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

How many pro victories he has? Over 100.
That's damn impressive for a rider from quite a narrow niche

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

How many pro victories he has? Over 100.
That's damn impressive for a rider from quite a narrow niche

Exactly, he's certainly mastered that niche. Obviously we're talking mostly about big races here - classics, WC & GT stages here. He can win any kind of Tour of California or Tour Down Under stage with his eyes closed. But, against the best competition, these kind of races which are somewhere between a bunch sprint and a tough classic are absolutely perfect for him.

 

[The Barb]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

Sagan does indeed have a "narrow niche". It's called cycling.

He hasn't even won a single Ballon D'or yet. Weak.

 

[DFA123]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

Sagan does indeed have a "narrow niche". It's called cycling.

He hasn't even won a single Ballon D'or yet. Weak.

Very poor post. Not sure why some Sagan fanboys take a fairly obvious observation as some kind of perceived slight and try to derail the conversation. Sad.

 

[trucido]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

Sagan does indeed have a "narrow niche". It's called cycling.

He hasn't even won a single Ballon D'or yet. Weak.

Or Wimbledon. What a failure he is.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

The things isn't about having a wide or narrow niche, it's about having a unique combination. Sagan is basically the only current rider who's both a durable sprinter and a puncher if it isn't too much climbing, and he's one of the fastest durable sprinters out there. That gives him a chance in an insane amount of races.

He is overrated as a rouleur and endurance rider though.

 

[Netserk]

Rouleur, probably; endurance, just the exact opposite.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Rouleur, probably; endurance, just the exact opposite.

How do you mean?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

The things isn't about having a wide or narrow niche, it's about having a unique combination. Sagan is basically the only current rider who's both a durable sprinter and a puncher if it isn't too much climbing, and he's one of the fastest durable sprinters out there. That gives him a chance in an insane amount of races.

He is overrated as a rouleur and endurance rider though.

Exactly. He's got this great overlap of skills which gives him chances in a huge number of races. But, the vast majority of his big wins have come in races which are generally too easy for pure classics guys like Gilbert or GVA. But also very hard for the faster sprinters - like Viviani and Demare today.

It's not a criticism of Sagan saying that he has this niche where he almost unbeatable. Of course he can win and compete in other scenarios as well. But this niche of races like GW and like the last few WC is absolutely perfect for him, and he utterly dominates it. No-one comes close in a 20-30 man bunch sprint after a long or moderately hard race. Kristoff used to be up there, but he's poor nowadays, so Sagan stands alone.

All of which makes it even more strange why he hasn't won MSR yet. Perhaps he feels it is just not hard enough to sit tight and wait for the sprint.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

All today showed is Sagan's is the best wheel to follow in a sprint finish - He has excellent racing instincts and rarely gets it wrong.

No it didn't. This proved nothing about his racing instinct - which still caries huge question marks.

All it showed was that he is perfectly suited to races which are very hard for pure sprinters, but not hard enough for proper classics riders.

Quite a narrow niche, but one which has netted him three World Championships already, so at least he's making the most of it.

The things isn't about having a wide or narrow niche, it's about having a unique combination. Sagan is basically the only current rider who's both a durable sprinter and a puncher if it isn't too much climbing, and he's one of the fastest durable sprinters out there. That gives him a chance in an insane amount of races.

He is overrated as a rouleur and endurance rider though.

Exactly. He's got this great overlap of skills which gives him chances in a huge number of races. But, the vast majority of his big wins have come in races which are generally too easy for pure classics guys like Gilbert or GVA. But also very hard for the faster sprinters - like Viviani and Demare today.

It's not a criticism of Sagan saying that he has this niche where he almost unbeatable. Of course he can win and compete in other scenarios as well. But this niche of races like GW and like the last few WC is absolutely perfect for him, and he utterly dominates it. No-one comes close in a 20-30 man bunch sprint after a long or moderately hard race. Kristoff used to be up there, but he's poor nowadays, so Sagan stands alone.

All of which makes it even more strange why he hasn't won MSR yet. Perhaps he feels it is just not hard enough to sit tight and wait for the sprint.

I don't see GvA or Gilbert as pure classics guys. I think endurance is more like a quality that preserves the rest of your qualities during a hard race and how quickly you recover from over threshold efforts during a race.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I don't see GvA or Gilbert as pure classics guys. I think endurance is more like a quality that preserves the rest of your qualities during a hard race and how quickly you recover from over threshold efforts during a race.

I have to disagree with that. To me, Gilbert and GVA are the very definition of classics specialists. Neither are close to challenging to the win at most stage races, bunch sprint or TTs. Yet put them in a classic - any type of classic - and they are dominant absolute beasts.

Of course, endurance is a huge part of that, and particularly ability to do repeated anaeorobic efforts. But if they are not pure classics guys, then who is?

 

[Laplaz]

Really impressed by the two Rompoot guys today.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Really impressed by the two Rompoot guys today.

This! When one of them (Van Goethem?) went away in the finale a really wanted him to take it. That would've been the surprise of the century.

 

[Tonton]

Re: 2018 Gent-Wevelgem, Deinze › Wevelgem (251.1k) - March 2

Finally back from work and I just watched the YouTube vid. Like in MSR, Demare got the wrong side of the road, but hats off to Sagan. He was smart. And fast. 3X GW is big. Very big.