Well, there always was a TTT as well, but nice try.
And it adds so much to the race...........never.
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Thanks!
Well, there always was a TTT as well, but nice try.
Not 1 on 1, but in a larger context I think you can make a comparison.
There's less options in the Pyrenees than the Alps, and it's been getting worse in the last few years.[/SPOILER]
Pyrenees are a much smaller and they're a bit lower. I guess you could say they're more underutilised, seeing as they almost always use the same selection of climbs. Basically the most you can hope for from the Pyrenees is a HC finish, perhaps a well set up cat 1 finish, and the rest of Pyrenean action would probably be short stageDo you think the Pyrenees are less utilized than the Alps? More potential for improvement when looking at the latest years?
Pyrenees are a much smaller and they're a bit lower. I guess you could say they're more underutilised, seeing as they almost always use the same selection of climbs. Basically the most you can hope for from the Pyrenees is a HC finish, perhaps a well set up cat 1 finish, and the rest of Pyrenean action would probably be short stage
The Pyrenees don't really have as many monster climbs of the Alps, and they also connect less well, so the usual Pyrenean monster stage designs will have 6/7 Cat 1s which I'm not sure I love.
I'm sure there's some Pyrenean beasts I don't know about or are simply not possible due to road surface. But generally I just want Pyrenees stages to be executed well without needing to be monster stages.
And it really depends on climb specifics to know if a stage is good. Some cat 1 climbs are great, some are terrible. Etc etc.
Prat d'Albis was simple and great this year. Tourmalet was awful.
It's a little annoying the best Pyrenean climbs don't connect well or are simply MTFs. There's a few very simple things you can do in the Pyrenees that will get good racing most of the time. I think it's a little annoying that most of the cat 1s in the Pyrenees aren't great for a descent finish without making it the hardeset Pyrenees stage. I also wouldnt mind to see Tourmalet or Port de Pailheres used as a final climb before a descent finish, cause that idea works very well with Port de Bales which is an easier climb.Yep, the Pyrenees covers a much smaller area, and that also limts the options. It's almost impossible to exclude all of the climbs like Peyresourde, Aspin, Tourmalet and Aubisque in the Tour, at least more than once every few years or so. The options both west and east of these climbs are fairly limited, so it's almost unavoidable that these 4 climbs are so frequently used.
I think the Alps have a much bigger potential, and it's disappointing that the stages are so centered around Huez, Galibier, Glandon/Croix de Fer and Izoard. And if they do something else, they do a halfway inspiring stage like Allos - Pra Loup or Iseran-Tignes.
It's a little annoying the best Pyrenean climbs don't connect well or are simply MTFs. There's a few very simple things you can do in the Pyrenees that will get good racing most of the time. I think it's a little annoying that most of the cat 1s in the Pyrenees aren't great for a descent finish without making it the hardeset Pyrenees stage. I also wouldnt mind to see Tourmalet or Port de Pailheres used as a final climb before a descent finish, cause that idea works very well with Port de Bales which is an easier climb.
Lastly, every time the Tour goes to Andorra they do worse than the Vuelta.
I just never know which climbs are usable from what side, etc. Seems Roque Blanche has one usable side for example. And if they wanna have their crazy stuff they can always pave a random goat track, which is how the legend of the Angliru was born.Pailheres could be used in combination with Plateau de Bonascre. Usually, that is a very good combo.
West of Aubisque, the selection is limited to border climbs like Larrau and Pierre Saint Martin, and the Basque climbs (Bagargui, Arnosteguy, etc) on the narrow roads close to the Spanish border. East of Peyresourde, there are some more options. Using Mente closer to the end of the stage and making it more relevant, could be an option. Using the series of climbs of Col de la Core, Latrape, Agnes, Port de Lers could also be an option. And Pailheres-Bonsacre or Beille as a stage finish.
Except for these climbs, the options are limited. They manage to find Prates de Albi this year, but I don't think there are many similar unused climbs out there.
In general, I'm therefore pretty sure that the mountain stages in the Alps are further away from their "full potential" than in the Pyrenees.
I just never know which climbs are usable from what side, etc. Seems Roque Blanche has one usable side for example. And if they wanna have their crazy stuff they can always pave a random goat track, which is how the legend of the Angliru was born.
I don't think more climbs is always better. Lately I've been thinking flat sections have their uses in mountain stages.Pave a random goat track seems more like a gimmick, kind of like the PdBF finish this year.
I'm a bigger fan of actually using the existing options. Especially a really tough climb as the second last climb followed by an easier last climb. Secondly good descent finishes. Thirdly using combos/series of climbs with no flat between them. Would like to a new Portillon-Peyresourde-Azet-Plad d'Adet combo. Things like that.
And actually using climbs on the route (between the stage start and finish) instead of skipping them, like using Mont Cenis before Iseran and Tignes this year instead of only Iseran-Tignes.
I don't think more climbs is always better. Lately I've been thinking flat sections have their uses in mountain stages.
MTFs with the most action have actually almost all been mountain stages with a very significant amount of flat at the start. PSM 2015. Just about every Ventoux stage. Pratonevoso 2018 and La Rabassa 2018. Oropa and Blockhaus 2017. Port de Bales 2014 had good action. Ax 3 domaines had nothing before Pailheres. Verbier 2009 was really easy before Verbier. For contrast, AdH 2018 was terrible.How? Can't see that flat sections are very useful in mountain stages.
I actually prefer several lower and steeper climb before the long and not so steep. I'm not a very big fan of the frequent use of south sides of Galibier and Glandon/Croix de Fer. Nor Vars or the easy side of Izoard.
the last part of the Cirque du Troumouse climb is inside the main protection area of a national park. Those roads are off-limits, according to Prudhomme. They apparently only make an exception for Iseran, which south side is in Vanoise NP, but it's a main road. All the other roads inside the National Parks core areas are minor.Regarding mountain top finishes in the Pyrenees, I think Cirque de Troumouse has never been used before. That would surely be a solid option after Tourmalet, but who is gonna pay for it?
(Even) more unrealistic would be to pave the descent of Col de Portet and finish at one of the reservoirs high up in the mountains, for example Lac d'Aubert. That would be similar to the Giro strategy of past years, having a huge mountain first followed by an easier MTF.
The south side of Glandon used to be 1st category only back in the day, but it's actually pretty hard. Irregular, for sure, but its hardest sections hit hard.How? Can't see that flat sections are very useful in mountain stages.
I actually prefer several lower and steeper climb before the long and not so steep. I'm not a very big fan of the frequent use of south sides of Galibier and Glandon/Croix de Fer. Nor Vars or the easy side of Izoard.
Hmm, I see. You probably don't want 100,000 spectators and 6 helicopters in such an area. Interesting that there seem to be "exceptions".the last part of the Cirque du Troumouse climb is inside the main protection area of a national park. Those roads are off-limits, according to Prudhomme. They apparently only make an exception for Iseran, which south side is in Vanoise NP, but it's a main road. All the other roads inside the National Parks core areas are minor.
This also means that MTFs like the scenic Col de Tentes and Pré de Madame Carle climbs are off-limits. Also the one(s) to the south of Cautarets (which was featured in TDF in the past, but was skipped for this reason the last time the TDF visited that town)
MTFs with the most action have actually almost all been mountain stages with a very significant amount of flat at the start. PSM 2015. Just about every Ventoux stage. Pratonevoso 2018 and La Rabassa 2018. Oropa and Blockhaus 2017. Port de Bales 2014 had good action. Ax 3 domaines had nothing before Pailheres. Verbier 2009 was really easy before Verbier. For contrast, AdH 2018 was terrible.
Some stages simply benefit from riders being relatively fresh, especially at the start of a mountain block. Domestiques are also relatively fresher enabling them to set a higher tempo.
And I'm not saying this should be used for every stage. But sometimes it has it's uses, and sometimes less is more, and it's usually if it's the first day in a mountain block.
I just never know which climbs are usable from what side, etc. Seems Roque Blanche has one usable side for example. And if they wanna have their crazy stuff they can always pave a random goat track, which is how the legend of the Angliru was born.
And I would advocate both types of stages existing in the same route.Strange. I remember completely different stages as the more action-packed. Le Grand Bonard in 2011, the two Alps stages in 2011, Gardaneccia in 2011, Risoul and St.Anna di Vinadio in Giro 2016 and of course several versions with Finestre or Mortirolo. Some of the stages you mention I remember well, like PSM and Verbier, but these very due to the best climber in exceptional form. That doesn't happen very often.
And I would advocate both types of stages existing in the same route.
How about the finish of the 2014 Dauphiné stage to Courchevel-Le Praz, with the cat.2 Côte de Montagny from Moûtiers and then the cat.2 summit, or even better finishing after Montagny with a cat.3 uphill in Champagny-en-Vanoise?Val Thorens is a big no-no. If they absolutely have to use a MTF from the Tarentaise Valley, it should be Valmorel preceeded by Madeleine and Chaussy/Glandon. Probably the best (and only?) way to make Madeleine relevant in mountain stage.
How about the finish of the 2014 Dauphiné stage to Courchevel-Le Praz, with the cat.2 Côte de Montagny from Moûtiers and then the cat.2 summit, or even better finishing after Montagny with a cat.3 uphill in Champagny-en-Vanoise?
Alternatively, coming over Madeleine from the north, then looping around, with optional ascents of Croix-de-Fer via Glandon and/or Chaussy, to finish at the Saint-François-Longchamp 1650 station that hosted a finish in the Dauphiné a few times (2009 most notably in recent memory I think).
A particular favourite option of mine would be to have a stage from Briançon or Bourg d'Oisans to Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne which goes over Galibier south (HC/1), descends into Saint-Michel-de-Maurienne, climbs to the Col du Mollard (1) via Albiez-le-Jeune, then Croix de Fer (1 due to the start being chopped off, but ASO might give it HC anyway), and descend into La Chambre. From there, climb on the Gellafrey road as far as Saint-François-Longchamp (probably HC - 14km at 8% means it's up there with Plateau de Beille and Alpe d'Huez, but is admittedly a few km shorter than doing the full climb), then descend back down to La Chambre on the D213, climb Lacets de Montvernier and then finish in Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne, placing Saint-François-Longchamp/Madeleine around 32km from the stage finish and with only a smaller (cat.2/3) climb afterward.
Alternatively, if one were to ignore the (better) Madeleine south climb, it's possible over Madeleine North to finish in Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne like in 2010, or to climb up to Saint-Colomban-des-Villards like in the Tour de l'Avenir last year. La Toussuire is the 'boring', safe option, while Valmeinier and Les Karellis are, if not more interesting, then at least less well-trodden options. Alternatively, descending from Madeleine via Montgellafrey would open up a MTF at Longchamp 1650 via the D213, or even via Chaussy. Given Le Tour likes to put all of its mountains within an area you could throw a picnic blanket over, how about following a stage with an MTF somewhere like La Plagne or Tignes with a stage from Moûtiers, Aime or Bourg-Saint-Maurice that goes over Madeleine North, Croix de Fer via Glandon, then Chaussy and backing straight onto Longchamp 1650?