2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Mayomaniac]

If the (almost) full Iseran from Bourg-Saint-Maurice is to be the focal point of a stage, I'd prefer pure grind-fest with the finish at Bessans. You can take Montée d'Hauteville out or swap it with Côte de Montvalezan, and you can add Colombière before Aravis if you start from Cluses. A stage start like that of the 2021 Tignes stage is also an option, depending on how hard you want the stage to be.

I didn't think about it, but a finish in or near the biathlon stadium in Bessans would be a great option for a stage that features Iseran from North.

 

[Netserk]

Only the part of Iséran after Val d'Isère, otoh, is nothing special - 14k at 6% is pretty meh even at that altitude. Basically Allos from the easy side but with the start and summit 500 metres higher.

A bit harder.

Name	Iseran	Allos
Average gradient of last 5 km	7.10 %	7.20 %
Average gradient of last 10 km	6.49 %	6.39 %
Average gradient of last 13 km	6.13 %	6.02 %
Average gradient of last 15 km	6.10 %	5.52 %
Average gradient of last 17 km	5.68 %	5.21 %

 

[Netserk]

I didn't think about it, but a finish in or near the biathlon stadium in Bessans would be a great option for a stage that features Iseran from North.

Never forget LS's Nordic Series!

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[ashhutch1997]

I think what makes the L'iseran from the north difficult just how much you climb and the altitude makes a huge difference of course. Look at the 2019 stage, the south side isn't the most brutal of gradients - 12.9km @7%. But the race completely exploded and it was a great stage.... until it got stopped lol.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Never forget LS's Nordic Series!

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I do remember the Nordic Series, but not every single possible venue that got used in it...

 

[OlavEH]

I think what makes the L'iseran from the north difficult just how much you climb and the altitude makes a huge difference of course. Look at the 2019 stage, the south side isn't the most brutal of gradients - 12.9km @7%. But the race completely exploded and it was a great stage.... until it got stopped lol.

It contributes that those 13 km are from 1800 to over 2700m.....

 

[Mayomaniac]

I think what makes the L'iseran from the north difficult just how much you climb and the altitude makes a huge difference of course. Look at the 2019 stage, the south side isn't the most brutal of gradients - 12.9km @7%. But the race completely exploded and it was a great stage.... until it got stopped lol.

Iseran from South is also harder than just those numbers suggest. You have 3 steep sections with 2 short sections of false flat breaking it up. Not to mention the altitude.

 

[gavia88]

so many great climbs and nice combinations of climbs that are barely or just completely not used and we have to watch Les Bettex next year

 

[Red Rick]

2019 Iseran also had tailwind iirc

 

[OlavEH]

so many great climbs and nice combinations of climbs that are barely or just completely not used and we have to watch Les Bettex next yea

Nah, the Giro next year is more underutilized on good climbs than the Tour.

 

[ashhutch1997]

As brilliant as these proposed stages are, surely none of these finishes would be willing to pay?
Then again Jausiers hosted a stage finish in 2008 so who knows....

 

[Mayomaniac]

As brilliant as these proposed stages are, surely none of these finishes would be willing to pay?
Then again Jausiers hosted a stage finish in 2008 so who knows....

Bonneval-sur-Arc has a decent sizeed Ski resort, so they could probably find the money.
A pipe dream of mine would be Susa - Bourg-Saint-Maurice with Mt. Cenis from the Italian side, Iseran from the harder side and Montvalezan before a downhill finish in Bourg-Saint-Maurice.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

A pipe dream of mine would be Susa - Bourg-Saint-Maurice with Mt. Cenis from the Italian side, Iseran from the harder side and Montvalezan before a downhill finish in Bourg-Saint-Maurice.

That would be way better with a finish in Tignes or, alternatively, Val d'Isère.

 

[Red Rick]

all the way from the bottom with a detour via Montvalenzan.
Something like this: https://www.cronoescalada.com/tracks/view/757536
Yeah, Bisanne at the start is probably a bit unrealistic for a modern Tour with it's u23 ranks mountain stages...

I think that's actually really bad.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I think that's actually really bad.

I kinda disagree.
BTW, what's your opinion on Bonette as a climb?

 

[Red Rick]

I'm just not a big believer in stages where the really good climbs are so disjointed from tempo grinders later. Iseran is huge, has a bunch of flat afterwards.

Maybe you get a crazy epic in a small minority of cases, but it's much more likely the hardest climbs get neutralzied because there's over 100km to go and then you maybe get some attacks late on Iseran etc, but it's a big waste for what's objectively a hard stage.

 

[Red Rick]

I kinda disagree.
BTW, what's your opinion on Bonette as a climb?

Bonette is good but not a top tier monster imo. I think Col de la Moutiere is better despite being lower. Bonette is hard enough to make carnage happen but I think it underwhelms when you use it as a warmup climb cause often the peloton just does Luke Rowe pace on a long climb like that. Still Bonette is one of the best high ones in the French Alps. Honestly nearly all of the best French climbs are right on the border.

I'm generally somewhat sceptical about altitude being a huge difference maker, and especially for the 5-6% grinder type climbs I don't think they become especially selective if they hit 2500m+. Also, if it's only a single climb going high i think it's a much lesser effect. A simple fact that makes many of the highest climbs the hardest is simply their profile.

 

[gavia88]

I'm just not a big believer in stages where the really good climbs are so disjointed from tempo grinders later. Iseran is huge, has a bunch of flat afterwards.

Maybe you get a crazy epic in a small minority of cases, but it's much more likely the hardest climbs get neutralzied because there's over 100km to go and then you maybe get some attacks late on Iseran etc, but it's a big waste for what's objectively a hard stage.

if the better riders attack on Iseran, differences will be big at the finish. I think the stage has everything to make big attacks possible. Early hard climbs to send up team mates up the rode. First part of the Iseran for reduzing the peloton. Second part for big attacks. Of course if you have a 2012-2017 situation, no stage will be watchable, whatever how great a design can be.

No it's not a Mortirolo - Aprica combi from which you know it will 100% deliver. But a Mortirolo - Aprica combo is quite predictable as well. If this stage deliver is more interesting to watch.

I would like to see a (full) Iseran, Mont Cenis, Finestre, Sestriere and Montgenevre and Briancon finish with the steep ramps in the old town. Only second half of the Iseran would be ok as well.

 

[Red Rick]

if the better riders attack on Iseran, differences will be big at the finish. I think the stage has everything to make big attacks possible. Early hard climbs to send up team mates up the rode. First part of the Iseran for reduzing the peloton. Second part for big attacks. Of course if you have a 2012-2017 situation, no stage will be watchable, whatever how great a design can be.

No it's not a Mortirolo - Aprica combi from which you know it will 100% deliver. But a Mortirolo - Aprica combo is quite predictable as well. If this stage deliver is more interesting to watch.

I would like to see a (full) Iseran, Mont Cenis, Finestre, Sestriere and Montgenevre and Briancon finish with the steep ramps in the old town. Only second half of the Iseran would be ok as well.

Iseran north doesn't really have any reason to attack from more than 3km out which on a 7% gradient isn't gonna do that much damage. Any similar high altitude climbs as MTF typically get a negative pacing strategy with action in the final 1500m.

 

[OlavEH]

As brilliant as these proposed stages are, surely none of these finishes would be willing to pay?
Then again Jausiers hosted a stage finish in 2008 so who knows....

If ASO made more out of the start and finish locations the are already using, there woudn't be much need of alternative stages like these. Next year both the Grand Colombier stage, the Loze-Courchevel stage and the Le Markstein stage could easily be made harder and possibly better, especially the stage to Grand Colombier. And in the later years, there have been several options that could be easily redesigned to be made much harder with the same locations for start and finish. First the 2017 stage to Foix.

Actual stage.

Possible stage. Moving the stage start a bit could also add at least Col de Menté and possibly Portillon.

So the 2019 stage to Tignes. Actual stage (before cancellation).

Possible stage (here I've switched the start location of the stage with the following day).

So the 2021 stage to Andorra. Actual stage:

Possible stage:

 

[Ulle97]

Really enjoy reading all these posts about possible stages and combinations of climbs.

I can be described as a casual cycling fan and have never climbed a col.
I have a fairly good knowledge of all the stages and climbs that have been used in the Tour.

However, I noticed people mentioning climbs such as the Col du Tra, Col de la Moutiere, Lac de Cap de Long and Pralognan de Vanoise. I have never ever heard of these before and have they ever been used in a Grand Tour???

PS.... I'm amazed at the knowledge you guys have of all these cols!!!

 

[Mayomaniac]

Bonette is good but not a top tier monster imo. I think Col de la Moutiere is better despite being lower. Bonette is hard enough to make carnage happen but I think it underwhelms when you use it as a warmup climb cause often the peloton just does Luke Rowe pace on a long climb like that. Still Bonette is one of the best high ones in the French Alps. Honestly nearly all of the best French climbs are right on the border.

I'm generally somewhat sceptical about altitude being a huge difference maker, and especially for the 5-6% grinder type climbs I don't think they become especially selective if they hit 2500m+. Also, if it's only a single climb going high i think it's a much lesser effect. A simple fact that makes many of the highest climbs the hardest is simply their profile.

Yeah, but Moutiere would need a bit of work and safety measures to actually be used in a race, other than that I agree with you.
I think Cayolle from South has to be the most underrated (and probably underused climb) in that area. The Tour hasn't used that climb in 50 years and the southern part of it is perfect before a Pra Loup or Super Sauze (yes, Super Sauze after Moutiere would be clearly better) finish and you pretty much have to put 1 or 2 climbs before it.
Allos-Champs-Cayolle-Pra Loup offers a good amount of climbing and a decent amount of moderate altitude linked together.

 

[OlavEH]

However, I noticed people mentioning climbs such as the Col du Tra, Col de la Moutiere, Lac de Cap de Long and Pralognan de Vanoise. I have never ever heard of these before and have they ever been used in a Grand Tour???

PS.... I'm amazed at the knowledge you guys have of all these cols!!!

No, not used. Moutiere is a parallell road to Col de la Bonette from the south. Very narrow road, and just after crossing the top a gravel road continues and joins the nothern ascent to Bonette. Lac de Cap de Long is lake nearby more famous climbs like Col de Portet and Pla d'Adet.

Moutiere on Google street view

Pralognan de Vanoise is a small village and resort nearby Courchevel. You can climb Col de la Loze, descend through Courcevel and to a crossroad and then climb to Pralognan. It is also just by the Vanoise National Park and the common entry point for hiking in that area. Maybe also the proximity to the national park is a reason for it not being used in the Tour?

 

[OlavEH]

Yeah, but Moutiere would need a bit of work and safety measures to actually be used in a race, other than that I agree with you.
I think Cayolle from South has to be the most underrated (and probably underused climb) in that area. The Tour hasn't used that climb in 50 years and the southern part of it is perfect before a Pra Loup or Super Sauze (yes, Super Sauze after Moutiere would be clearly better) finish and you pretty much have to put 1 or 2 climbs before it.
Allos-Champs-Cayolle-Pra Loup offers a good amount of climbing and a decent amount of moderate altitude linked together.

If the rumours about a Nice finish in 2024 is correct, the southern Alps/Mercantour should really be used the last weekend. On the last Friday or (Saturday) a stage like you have proposed there or something ending with Cayolle-Bonette-Auron. Then followed by a stage from Isola to Nice via Saint-Martin, Turini, Braus, La Turbie and Eze. That could actutally also be the final stage of the Tour if they are willing to do something else than a sprint stage or a ITT.

Last weekend I made a list of 10 climbs or combos of climbs that should be used in the Tour and/or are good possibilites for Tour mountain stages that creates big gaps. All of the 10 are more or less likely and have been used in some kind of way the later years (although not always the best version of the climb/combos), except the big Mercantour climbs. A Nice 2024 finish would be the perfect opportunity to use them.

 

[Sciatic]

This seems to have turned int the route design adjunct thread? Maybe there’s nothing more to say about the 2023 Tour until more specific route details come out for the non-mountain stages?