2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Red Rick]

Yes, or better: a final with AdH, then descent of Sarenne, and finishing atop the (paved) Jandri way above Les 2 Alpes, The MTB "Mountain of Hell" would get a whole lot hellish.

You can go to 3000m just above AdH too no?

In reality I think those climbs are way too hard for GTs anyway as they would just make other stages irrelevant. The way i want to see them is in one day races like Mont Ventoux challenge. Right now there's only Taiwan KoM challenge but it's basically a sportive. It would also add some nice variety and some alternatives for the Vuelta maybe. Also these races don't need to be super complicated. Can just be mostly flat before the monster climb and have small teams.

An MTF to Col de Pailhères would be a first? From Usson Les Bains its a monster. Just my suggestion? If you can have a MTF on Galibier then there is plenty of room for crowds on the top of the Pailhères. Great views from the top as well which makes for television.

I don't like a Pailheres MTF. There's plenty of HC climbs for MTF already, and especially the Pyrenees don't have that many great passes.

That's why I suggested stopping at the Col de Laquets, about 200m below the Midi summit itself

Ah makes sense. Still don't think it adds that much, there is already Col de Portet, which is probably a better climb anyway cause it's steeper in the first half. At least it wouldn't have insane gradients after passing the original Col du Tourmalet.

Possibly a future combo in the Tour when the work on both sides are finished. First Tougnete, descent to Meribel and a climb to Loze?

If Loze are confirmed for next year, which seems fairly plausible, I hope that it is the penultimate mountain stage and are followed by something like a Joux-Plan stage or a descent finish after the Biche-Grand Colombier combo.

Yeah the long term prospects are the main reason I find this exciting. If it's just for a MTF it's not graet, especially with Tougnete having super steep ramp in the final km. But with the investments made, it seems they're not just gonna wanna use this once as a MTF. I've wanted to the Tour to use it's big passes in the south more, but these climbs could give great alternatives.

Maybe I could even go through life without seeing Croix-de-Fer every year.

 

[OlavEH]

Yeah the long term prospects are the main reason I find this exciting. If it's just for a MTF it's not graet, especially with Tougnete having super steep ramp in the final km. But with the investments made, it seems they're not just gonna wanna use this once as a MTF. I've wanted to the Tour to use it's big passes in the south more, but these climbs could give great alternatives.

Maybe I could even go through life without seeing Croix-de-Fer every year.

I guess it's the Three Valleys ski resort that is paying for this? And then they could possibly want a pass of Tougnete and a finish of Loze in the future instead of just using one of them as a MTF. With Tougnete you could easily do a rather short mountain stage with Madeleine-Tougnete-Loze. That would potentially be a real killer. First the steep ramp to Tougnete, a descent to Meribel and then a equally steep ramp to Loze.

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

I guess it's the Three Valleys ski resort that is paying for this? And then they could possibly want a pass of Tougnete and a finish of Loze in the future instead of just using one of them as a MTF. With Tougnete you could easily do a rather short mountain stage with Madeleine-Tougnete-Loze. That would potenially be a real killer. First the steep ramp to Tougnete, a descent to Meribel and then a equally steep ramp to Loze.

I created possible profile for that. Maybe the Cucheron was not necessary. 5500 vertical meters in here.



@ Red Rick, Thanks for helping!

 

[Red Rick]

I created a profile for this (looks epic), but I dont get how to upload an image. It might come soon.

If you have the image in an image hosting site like imgur or whatever you can insert that link through the image button in the forum interface

 

[houtdffan]

I created possible profile for that. Maybe the Cucheron was not necessary. 5500 vertical meters in here.



@ Red Rick, Thanks for helping!

the Notre-Dame de Graces should, IMO be part of the Tougnete and not a separate climb

Nothing wrong with the stage, however. A proper Alpine stage like in the good old days.

Just need a couple of proper length TTs to properly balance it

 

[ashhutch1997]

The best option IMO would be to do the Col de la Tougnète and finish at the airstrip in Meribel. Don't get me wrong the Col de la Tougnète and then the Col de la Loze would be great, but there's a change that the race will be neutralised until the last few km of the Loze like in 2020...

 

[Netserk]

This is half the reason I just don't like the Pyrenees. There's far less choice than the Alps, there's actually fairly few HC passes, and there's basically not one true monster. Add a tendency to use the same climbs and same towns again and again and again and it just gets lethargic. Hell they even manage to make an in theory great climb like the Tourmalet boring as *** 95% of the time.

Pyrenees are underrated in this thread. There's plenty of good options, even when only using common hosts.

I don't mind seeing Tourmalet in the Tour every year, it's a good climb with a critical location. Novelty is overrated, it is merely a mean to discover better designs, not an end in itself.

 

[houtdffan]

The best option IMO would be to do the Col de la Tougnète and finish at the airstrip in Meribel. Don't get me wrong the Col de la Tougnète and then the Col de la Loze would be great, but there's a change that the race will be neutralised until the last few km of the Loze like in 2020...

Not with today's cycling.

At a minimum, there'd be no more than a group of 5 reaching the bottom of the Loze

 

[ashhutch1997]

Not with today's cycling.

At a minimum, there'd be no more than a group of 5 reaching the bottom of the Loze

Well it depends on the race situation, I mean I'm only talking about 2 years ago...

 

[houtdffan]

Well it depends on the race situation, I mean I'm only talking about 2 years ago...

There was only 1 climb before the Loze in 2020. The proposed stage has 4 climbs before it

 

[rghysens]

What's everyone's best bet for a good urban hill in 2023?

Not stating it will happen, but Rouen has a lot of possibilities. Some roads of 1km @ 10% or thereabouts in the outskirts of that town (even a 600m @ 15%).

 

[pman]

Rouen would be a great venue for a fun uphill city stage. I have a suspicion we'll have two Tours in a row which are more or less in the southern half of the country. But if not, Rouen and Normandy would be phenomenal.

As much as people liked to criticize the 2022 Tour route, one thing it got right is that it eliminated the endless parade of flat sprint stages. Look, I understand sprints are rightfully part of the Tour but a little bit of spice in a stage makes a big difference. We saw this year that stages with uphill finishes lead to a battle between guys like Van Aert and Pog.

Hopefully the trend continues!

 

[Valv.Piti]

The completely flat stage is outdated. It doesnt add anything to the race. Literally every stage in France had some sort of obstacle, and we saw the results. Stages like 13 and 15 are perfect examples of how a sprinter stage should look like - lots of riders should be able to contest to win be it from an early break, late attack, durable sprinters trying to shred pure sprinters, pure sprinters trying to survive and keep it all together etc. Thats racing. Whats not racing on the other hand are 200 km stages where its a given whats going to happen, and you don't have to tune in before 15 to go unless the wind is playing ball.

Perfect balance this year. Make the guys with the fat ass earn his victory, and if he decides its not worth it to go to France, well, thats not really our loss, because such a rider barely contributes anything to the race anyways.

 

[pman]

The pure sprint stage is indeed outdated. We have too many everything riders. Too many Van Aert's, too many Pogs. I remember the endless parade of sprint stages to start the Tour. They just killed much of the initial excitement from the Grand Depart. One or two pure sprint stages a Tour, I am fine with that. Beyond that, spice it up, play to the talent in the peloton.

 

[OlavEH]

Pyrenees are underrated in this thread. There's plenty of good options, even when only using common hosts.

I don't mind seeing Tourmalet in the Tour every year, it's a good climb with a critical location. Novelty is overrated, it is merely a mean to discover better designs, not an end in itself.

Kind of agree, I also like the Pyrenees, actually better than the Alps since ASO are far from utilizing the potential of the climbs in the Alps, and far too much are centered around Croix de Fer, Huez and Galibier. And added by these fairly boring 20 km, 6 % climbs. The Pyrenees are on average a bit shorter and steeper, on narrower roads and worse surface and feels a bit more "wild" than the climbs around the big ski resorts in the Alps. That being said, both ranges would benifit from using more of the less known climbs on smaller and worse roads like Ariege and French Basque country in the Pyrenees and Mercantour and the steeper Northern climb in the Alps.

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

Pyrenees are underrated in this thread. There's plenty of good options, even when only using common hosts.

I don't mind seeing Tourmalet in the Tour every year, it's a good climb with a critical location. Novelty is overrated, it is merely a mean to discover better designs, not an end in itself.

I would disagree with that. I think, the Pyrenees are the mountain range to build stages without a lot of valleys between the mountains in France. Except for the northern alps, the Pyrenees stages have to give us these zig-zag-profiles. 20 km valleys before the final ascent are a wasting of possibilities. (in my opinion) But nevertheless, I think we can agree, that ideally the mountain stages should be all different and unique in their own way.

The pure sprint stage is indeed outdated. We have too many everything riders. Too many Van Aert's, too many Pogs. I remember the endless parade of sprint stages to start the Tour. They just killed much of the initial excitement from the Grand Depart. One or two pure sprint stages a Tour, I am fine with that. Beyond that, spice it up, play to the talent in the peloton.

Totally agree here. Those stages are still easy enough to make it a little recovery ride for GC, and the fight break vs Sprinter teams is exciting in these stages. Also a nice trend in the Giro, especially this year.

 

[Red Rick]

Pyrenees are underrated in this thread. There's plenty of good options, even when only using common hosts.

I don't mind seeing Tourmalet in the Tour every year, it's a good climb with a critical location. Novelty is overrated, it is merely a mean to discover better designs, not an end in itself.

Find it hard to have no issue with a climb when it's badly placed in the stage or overall race 95% of the time.

I value novelty because it may give future deviation from the same old stale designs.

 

[ashhutch1997]

It's such a shame there is no way to use the Port de Larrau, a monster of a climb that's criminally under used

 

[Netserk]

Find it hard to have no issue with a climb when it's badly placed in the stage or overall race 95% of the time.

I value novelty because it may give future deviation from the same old stale designs.

By that measure, you must hate Madeleine too?

 

[Netserk]

It's such a shame there is no way to use the Port de Larrau, a monster of a climb that's criminally under used

Combine its two usages and finish at La Pierre Saint-Martin. There's not much else to do.

 

[Red Rick]

By that measure, you must hate Madeleine too?

It's a much less frequent offender.

And it's not vastly outshined by it's much more recidivist neighbour

 

[OlavEH]

Combine its two usages and finish at La Pierre Saint-Martin. There's not much else to do.

A MTF to Pierre St.Martin via Issarbe would actually be really interesting. That is one proper climb!

 

[Mosul]

One thing I hope they once again include is a stage like the one that finished in Lausanne. I attended the stage and it was the perfect kind of stage to attend. It was split up into echelons, it had a fun non-mass sprint finish and it was still in a major, beautiful city a short train ride from Paris.

Those urban hill stages are perfect for fans. I shouldn't have to choose between renting a camper and hiking up a mountain or watching a 3 second sprint. The urban hill stages like the one in Lausanne are perfect. They're also fun on TV and spice up otherwise more boring sprint stages.

What's everyone's best bet for a good urban hill in 2023?

Already in this thread, somebody suggested a stage crossing the Izoard with an uphill finish in Briancon. The most recent visits to Briancon have not used the uphill finish so it would be nice to see it again. In 1989 Fignon lost 13 seconds to Lemond on the short climb to the finish which eventually cost him the overall win in GC. Taking the overnight trains between Paris and Briancon would make it a 36-hour round trip so it would be a bit more gruelling than a Lausanne day trip.

 

[pman]

Briancon would be a great, over due finish. It would be a great way to see an Alpine stage relatively easily. Personally, I'd take the train to Lyon, enjoy the city and then take the regional train to Briancon. Or fly into Lyon then take the train. Either way, that'd be a fun place to see a stage.

 

[houtdffan]

Already in this thread, somebody suggested a stage crossing the Izoard with an uphill finish in Briancon. The most recent visits to Briancon have not used the uphill finish so it would be nice to see it again. In 1989 Fignon lost 13 seconds to Lemond on the short climb to the finish which eventually cost him the overall win in GC. Taking the overnight trains between Paris and Briancon would make it a 36-hour round trip so it would be a bit more gruelling than a Lausanne day trip.

I think they used a parallel road, but the finish has been uphill