2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Netserk]

A climb parallell to Aspin? How would that be used in a good way?

Beyrède-Aspin-Lançon-Ancizan-Lac de Payolle.

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

Bonascre is perfectly suited to paving random and steep goat track on top of climb.

Unless I'm mistaken and the road is already paved way up there. It goes all the way to 2200m or so

On Google Maps it looks like it's unpaved. Gravel is nice, but I don't like it at an MTF. Also, there is no space for equipment up there. The pavement seems to ende at the Ax 3 Domaines ski station.

Regarding Col de la Loze:

There was/is a plan to connect the 3 valleys of the villages Chourchevel (Loze east side), Meribel (Loze west side) and Les Meuniers/Val Thorens (one valley west of Meribel) via high alpine road bike roads. The Col de la Loze (which by definition isn't even a mountain pass) is built, as well as the western ramp between Les Meuniers and Meribel (article link below). The eastern ramp might be in construction and is possibly ready for 2023.

Everything about the new Col de la Tougnète (with video) | cycloworld.cc

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Is the Col de Beyrède driveable?

This is from memory, but IIRC Beyrède has been ruled out by ASO because the descent(s) they were interested in using was/were deemed unsafe or unusable for the Tour.

I'm assuming they were only interested in using this descent:

https://climbfinder.com/en/climbs/col-de-beyrede-payolle#c

"The road is well damaged by the logging machines, even transformed into a track in some places (tarmacking is not very likely due to these activities)
Long slopes without respite before leaving the forest and being able to breathe a little.
Road to be avoided on the way down: prefer the track that leads to the Aspin pass, not in good condition either (for the same reason as the climb from Payolle) but with limited slopes that allow you to go down gently without heating up the brakes.
(route taken at the end of April 2021)"

 

[Fyr3]

I am not sure where I heard the rumour (I think it was on Le Grupetto) but it seems that ASO are planning something unique / different in the Hautes Pyrenees next year. I was thinking they might do a double Tourmalet? Ascent via Luz St Sauveur, aspin then Ancizan before a finish at La Mongie. Other possibilities might be a finish on Beyrede / Lac de cap de Long. I also have thought of the possibility of doing Col du Soulor > Col de Couraduque?

I will leave a route I hope for but might be somewhat unlikely

Stages 1-3: Basque depart, stage 3 almost certainly ending in Bayonne
Stage 4 : flat stage up towards Bordeaux
Stage 5: hilly stage ending at Lac de Vassiviere (would be a long one.)
Stage 6: Puy Mary MTF
stage 7: flat stage south designed for crosswinds like stage 10 in 2019.
stages 8-9 Pyrenees, mystery hautes pyrenees stage followed by Ariege (plateau de beille seems likely after it was sort of announced for 2022)

rest day

Stage 10: attempted crosswind stage around Montpellier, possibly a passage of Mont St Clair in Sete
Stage 11: return of Mont Aigoual via Col de la Lusette
Stage 12: finish in Lyon
Stage 13: flat stage in rhone valley or this as #12 with #13 a stage trying to replicate the success of 2019 Macon St Etienne stage.
Stage 14: mid race time trial in the vineyards around Dijon
Stage 15-16: Jura days, return of Grand colombier and quite possibly a finish in Lelex

rest day 2

Stage 17: gentle entrance into the Alps of the style of 2020 vercors stage
Stage 18: return of the Col de la Loze
Stage 19: Mandatory finish in gap, but from the north
Stage 20: Izoard Summit Finish to repent for the sin of not including it on its 100th anniversary in 2022
Stage 21: Paris

Alternatively I can see Pyrenees early stages 4-5, massif central to end first week, restart in Normandy with the extra long second week, a time trial to split up the transition stages as they come south and potentially they visit the gravel the TDFF went over. Then resume the route above from the Jura.

Incase it wasn't clear most of this isn't based on any rumours I've heard, I just hope for something like this

 

[pman]

I would pay good money to see a time trial around Dijon. I always thought Dijon would be a lovely city to visit. Turn it into a time trial, I am there.

I also love the idea of a mid-race time trial. I get that during the Froome years, he was the only decent GC guy who could also TT, therefore the mid race time trial destroyed any suspense in the race. However we're not there right now. Almost all the main GC guys can TT. Move the TT back to the middle of the race. Imagine Bernal losing a minute or two on Pog and Vinny. He and Ineos would have to attack like crazy in the final week. I'd love to see it.

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

I am not sure where I heard the rumour (I think it was on Le Grupetto) but it seems that ASO are planning something unique / different in the Hautes Pyrenees next year. I was thinking they might do a double Tourmalet? Ascent via Luz St Sauveur, aspin then Ancizan before a finish at La Mongie. Other possibilities might be a finish on Beyrede / Lac de cap de Long. I also have thought of the possibility of doing Col du Soulor > Col de Couraduque?

What makes this plausible is, that they ski village of La Mongie might pay good money for a MTF and ASO has to decide whether to make that or to take the full Tourmalet. Combining both in one stage could solve the problem.

Stage 11: return of Mont Aigoual via Col de la Lusette

Please not (at least not the way it was ridden in 2020)

 

[Fyr3]

basic idea of La Mongie

 

[Fyr3]

I think I forgot to mention it but for the novelty in the hautes alpes we could potentially consider Gavarnie-Gedre, though I haven't seen anything about it. It was used in Occitanie a few years back iirc.

It's not a finish all the way to the top of the Col des Tentes, I think I did the calculations and it would be 13km at 6% to this finish, with a long false flat beforehand. I don't know if this is really more feasible than a finish on Col des Tentes for ASO or not, but I think it might fall outside the national park which could make things plausible.

 

[Big Doopie]

...Other possibilities might be a finish on Beyrede / Lac de cap de Long.

Lac de cap de Long is an amazing climb. stunning.

but it's in a protected national park and that is why it has not (and can never be?) in the TDF...

 

[Fyr3]

Lac de cap de Long is an amazing climb. stunning.

but it's in a protected national park and that is why it has not (and can never be?) in the TDF...

It remains to be seen but yes it seems unlikely. That being said Prudhomme clearly wants to push the boundaries of where its possible for the Tour to go and given he seems to want the Tour to return to Puy de Dome in the coming years, getting a stage finish in one of these protected zones might make a future visit more likely (still difficult for puy de dome I guess even if you tick off the protected region stuff because there is the logistical problems with space at the top, crowds and the width of the road.)

I will have to go back and find the original source of this "original stage in hautes pyrenees" to find out if its more likely to be a new climb or just something atypical in recent memory.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

but it's in a protected national park and that is why it has not (and can never be?) in the TDF...

It's close, but the road up there is not in the national park

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_national_des_Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es#/map/0

 

[OlavEH]

stages 8-9 Pyrenees, mystery hautes pyrenees stage followed by Ariege (plateau de beille seems likely after it was sort of announced for 2022)

rest day

Stage 10: attempted crosswind stage around Montpellier, possibly a passage of Mont St Clair in Sete
Stage 11: return of Mont Aigoual via Col de la Lusette
Stage 12: finish in Lyon
Stage 13: flat stage in rhone valley or this as #12 with #13 a stage trying to replicate the success of 2019 Macon St Etienne stage.
Stage 14: mid race time trial in the vineyards around Dijon
Stage 15-16: Jura days, return of Grand colombier and quite possibly a finish in Lelex

rest day 2

Stage 17: gentle entrance into the Alps of the style of 2020 vercors stage
Stage 18: return of the Col de la Loze
Stage 19: Mandatory finish in gap, but from the north
Stage 20: Izoard Summit Finish to repent for the sin of not including it on its 100th anniversary in 2022
Stage 21: Paris

Except for that La Mongie stage you outlined, I hope this doesn't become reality. It would be a pretty mediocre route where all was centered around MTFs (Beille, Colombier, Loze, Izoard) to an even bigger degree than normal. In addition, would it be fairly long from Izoard to Paris for transfer to the last stage? It would make more sense if they did it the other way. Izoard MTF first in the Alps and the Grand Colombier on the pentultimate stage.

 

[Netserk]

Beyrède-Aspin-Lançon-Ancizan-Lac de Payolle.

While it is quite uneven and steep at places, I don't think it has great value as an Aspin/Ancizan substitute before Tourmalet, as it will always have more flat before it.

EDIT: And even in this case, if you come from Pau or Tarbes, why not use Tourmalet instead?

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Bonascre is a good call, it's been quite a while since last time used, maybe 2013?
Although it's maybe selective memory but I never remember it being a great final, more like a reduced bunch arriving together. Even in the era of early attacks I don't remember big gaps.

Tourmalet again is alright I guess as long as it's not the first climb on a /\/ stage.

 

[vladimir]

Bonascre is a good call, it's been quite a while since last time used, maybe 2013?
Although it's maybe selective memory but I never remember it being a great final, more like a reduced bunch arriving together. Even in the era of early attacks I don't remember big gaps.

Tourmalet again is alright I guess as long as it's not the first climb on a /\/ stage.

I have fond memories from Bonascre in 2003. I remember taking the lift up from the small town in the morning, and hanging in a bar at the top with some Basque fans and watching the stage. Ullrich gained 7 seconds on Lance and 17 on Vino that day. But Luttenberger in 20th place was almost 5 minutes down on Ulle so gaps can certainly happen!

 

[ice&fire]

It's close, but the road up there is not in the national park

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parc_national_des_Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es#/map/0

Interesting. Lac d'Orédon and Lac d'Aubert have larger parking areas, but they're inside the perimeter of the national park.

 

[OlavEH]

Bonascre is a good call, it's been quite a while since last time used, maybe 2013?
Although it's maybe selective memory but I never remember it being a great final, more like a reduced bunch arriving together. Even in the era of early attacks I don't remember big gaps.

Bonascre is mainly logical when coupled with Pailheres, and when the latter is ridden hard. Usually it would best to have a stage like this in the last week, since it's usually then it's most likely to have high pace from early on in mountain stages. But both last year and this year, we had much action already on the first big mountain stages, so a Pailheres - Bosacre combo just before the first rest day next year, might well work.

 

[ChiefMasterPro]

We seem all to agree, that Bonascre is better due to the preciding Pailheres. Despite that, how could the Plateau de Beille be fitted well? I don't see a very good option here, because the long valley in front of the climb destroys early attacks. I hope they will create Pyrenees stages like this year, and I don't see any way how Beille can be fitted into that scheme properly.

 

[OlavEH]

We seem all to agree, that Bonascre is better due to the preciding Pailheres. Despite that, how could the Plateau de Beille be fitted well? I don't see a very good option here, because the long valley in front of the climb destroys early attacks. I hope they will create Pyrenees stages like this year, and I don't see any way how Beille can be fitted into that scheme properly.

I don't think Beille can be coupled to other climbs in a good way. So it would be more of a standalone MTF. If that was the only MTF of that type in the Tour next year, it would be okay........

 

[Valv.Piti]

Bonascre is a good call, it's been quite a while since last time used, maybe 2013?
Although it's maybe selective memory but I never remember it being a great final, more like a reduced bunch arriving together. Even in the era of early attacks I don't remember big gaps.

Tourmalet again is alright I guess as long as it's not the first climb on a /\/ stage.

That is indeed selective memory. You can go watch the stage from 2013, there were absurd time gaps considering how short the Bonascre is. Peak-Sky performance coupled with Alberto being absolute garbage and Quintana going long on Pailheres.

Regarding Plateau de Beille, not every stage needs to be a perfectly designed route. It works well as a first MTF if youre coming from the Alps, and you can still make it a hard stage beforehand, look at the stage from 2004 for example. Its a great MTF if you go hard from the bottom and again, not every mountain stage needs to invite for some long range shenanigans.

 

[Netserk]

We seem all to agree, that Bonascre is better due to the preciding Pailheres. Despite that, how could the Plateau de Beille be fitted well? I don't see a very good option here, because the long valley in front of the climb destroys early attacks. I hope they will create Pyrenees stages like this year, and I don't see any way how Beille can be fitted into that scheme properly.

Not all mountain stages have to be the same. It's fine with one that is all about the final ascent. You can have Pailhères before it, Lers or other warm-up climbs, or you can have a mono-climb stage.

EDIT: Souloumbrie or Chioula would offer less flat before the climb, but I don't think it adds much. A novel approach would be to come from the south.

 

[Red Rick]

Plateau de Beille is basically the French Alpe d'Huez.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Plateau de Beille is basically the French Alpe d'Huez.

nah, PdB is way worse as a climb. It has hardly any climbing at 10-11 percent, plus there's always a headwind at the top.

 

[ice&fire]

Plateau de Beille is basically the French Alpe d'Huez.

What is Alpe d'Huez then? A Dutch colony?

 

[gavia88]

nah, PdB is way worse as a climb. It has hardly any climbing at 10-11 percent, plus there's always a headwind at the top.

are you not underestimating the difficulty of PdB? It's no Mortirolo, but it's clearly in the top 5 of hardest climbs the tours has used in the Pyrenees in their history. I'm not a particular fan of the climb, mainly because of the discusses issues with the connection to other climbs, but the first years it gaves quite some big differences as well. Pantani, Armstrong, Contador. Only Andy Schleck gave the excuse it wasn't steep enough after he was asked why nobody attacked.