2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Mayomaniac]

Loze from the 2020 side, descent until Courcevel Le Praz and then a MTF at Méribel-Mottaret would be an awesome Col de la Loze stage if Meribel was paying for the MTF.
This climb from 8kms until 500m to go as a MTF after Loze:

 

[OlavEH]

Grand Colombier has been used more and more the last decade and have almost become a standard climb on par with the 3-4 most used climbs in the Alps and 4-5 most used in the Pyrenees. And GC is potentially one of the toughest climbs/MTFs or best combos of climbs in France. The toughest ascent is probably from south, from Taliessue, which is about 14 km at 9 %. But the combo Biche - Colombier is even better. 9 km at 9 %, about 15 km descend and flat to Virieu-le-Petit and then 8 km at 10 % to the top of GC. This could also be followed by a descent to Culoz and preceeded (before Biche) by 8 km at 7,5 % to Lacets de Colombier.

So I used PCS database and profiles to check how the climb has been used in the last decade:

2012 CD: Used as a pass from Culoz just of halfway on the stage. Followed by Richemond and 45 km of descent/flat after that.
2012 Tour: Used as a pass from Culoz just of halfway on the stage. Followed by Richemond and 21 km of descent/flat after that.
2016 Tour: Used as a pass from northwest, descend to Anglefort, climb to Lacets du Grand Colombier from Culoz, descend back to Anglefort and a last 6 km flat to Culoz.
2017 Tour: Used early before halfway on the stage with the Biche - Grand Colombier combo.
2019: Tour d'Ain: MTF from Culoz
2020: Tour d'Ain: MTF from Culoz
2020: Tour: Climbing two thirds of the climb to GC from Artemare, descend to climb Biche, descend and 15 km of flat before MTF from Culoz.
2021: Tour de l'Avenir: MTF from Anglefort.
2023: Tour: MTF from Culoz.

For the first versions it was mostly used at a pass and at a distance from the stage finish. Never the last climb before 2019. From that point it has been used as a MTF and almost exclusively from Culoz. Neither the toughest ascent or the best combo has been used (other than far from the stage finish). Really too bad. Should also be a very ideal last mountain stage since it is in a moderate distance from Paris and could be used for stage 20.

 

[ice&fire]

With GC from Culoz ASO is just looking for pictures of the lacets. We've moved from Youtube cycling to Instagram cycling.

 

[ashhutch1997]

If it's the Ain region who are paying, the best option for a Grand Colombier finish would be - Lacets du Grand Colombier (cat 1), Col de la Biche (HC) and then MTF up the Col de Grand Colombier (HC) from the hardest side.

 

[Red Rick]

Grand Colombier has been used more and more the last decade and have almost become a standard climb on par with the 3-4 most used climbs in the Alps and 4-5 most used in the Pyrenees. And GC is potentially one of the toughest climbs/MTFs or best combos of climbs in France. The toughest ascent is probably from south, from Taliessue, which is about 14 km at 9 %. But the combo Biche - Colombier is even better. 9 km at 9 %, about 15 km descend and flat to Virieu-le-Petit and then 8 km at 10 % to the top of GC. This could also be followed by a descent to Culoz and preceeded (before Biche) by 8 km at 7,5 % to Lacets de Colombier.

So I used PCS database and profiles to check how the climb has been used in the last decade:

2012 CD: Used as a pass from Culoz just of halfway on the stage. Followed by Richemond and 45 km of descent/flat after that.
2012 Tour: Used as a pass from Culoz just of halfway on the stage. Followed by Richemond and 21 km of descent/flat after that.
2016 Tour: Used as a pass from northwest, descend to Anglefort, climb to Lacets du Grand Colombier from Culoz, descend back to Anglefort and a last 6 km flat to Culoz.
2017 Tour: Used early before halfway on the stage with the Biche - Grand Colombier combo.
2019: Tour d'Ain: MTF from Culoz
2020: Tour d'Ain: MTF from Culoz
2020: Tour: Climbing two thirds of the climb to GC from Artemare, descend to climb Biche, descend and 15 km of flat before MTF from Culoz.
2021: Tour de l'Avenir: MTF from Anglefort.
2023: Tour: MTF from Culoz.

For the first versions it was mostly used at a pass and at a distance from the stage finish. Never the last climb before 2019. From that point it has been used as a MTF and almost exclusively from Culoz. Neither the toughest ascent or the best combo has been used (other than far from the stage finish). Really too bad. Should also be a very ideal last mountain stage since it is in a moderate distance from Paris and could be used for stage 20.

The 2020 stage would be good without the MTF, you can even start the climb in Taliessue until the Fromentel junction, add a reasonable warmup climb or two and you have a great mountain stage that doesn't need to be too hard even in terms of total altitude gain

 

[houtdffan]

NOthing wrong with the GC from Culoz. It's very similar to the Tourmalet!

 

[Red Rick]

NOthing wrong with the GC from Culoz. It's very similar to the Tourmalet!

Except every time GC was raced from Culoz it was a dud.

It's nothing like the Tourmalet at all.

 

[houtdffan]

Except every time GC was raced from Culoz it was a dud.

It's nothing like the Tourmalet at all.

I've seen plenty of duds on Tourmalet from St Marie de Campan

 

[Netserk]

Speaking of tough climbs that connect well, I wonder when we'll see Bisanne and Pré featuring together where they'll have greater impact than on the road to La Rosière in 2018.

Since the Tour favours noodle soups, let me illustrate with a design to Col des Saisies:

Annecy -> Col des Saisies

220.0 km, +7322 m. Bike ride in Veyrier-du-Lac, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes

ridewithgps.com

[EDIT] And a more traditional format that would be ready to be used by the Tour as it is:

 

[Mayomaniac]

Speaking of tough climbs that connect well, I wonder when we'll see Bisanne and Pré featuring together where they'll have greater impact than on the road to La Rosière in 2018.

Since the Tour favours noodle soups, let me illustrate with a design to Col des Saisies:

Annecy -> Col des Saisies

220.0 km, +7322 m. Bike ride in Veyrier-du-Lac, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes

ridewithgps.com

[EDIT] And a more traditional format that would be ready to be used by the Tour as it is:

Yeah, that one would be great.

Bisanne and Pre before Iseran (via Montvalezan) with a Mont Cenis MTF the day after a big MTF (let's say La Plagne or Plateau des Saix, just so that It's not always just de Col de la Loze) could also work.

I also would't mind a start in Courmayeur the day after a Le Bettex MTF. San Carlo-Petit Bernard-Roselend-Bisanne-Saisies before an uphill finish in Crest-Voland would be a really good shorter stage.

Something that I want to see in the future as a 2 climb combination is Cayolle-Pra Loup. One pretty much has to put 1 or even 2 good climbs before Cayolle, that one is hard to mess up.

 

[Bolder]

Speaking of tough climbs that connect well, I wonder when we'll see Bisanne and Pré featuring together where they'll have greater impact than on the road to La Rosière in 2018.

Since the Tour favours noodle soups, let me illustrate with a design to Col des Saisies:

Annecy -> Col des Saisies

220.0 km, +7322 m. Bike ride in Veyrier-du-Lac, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes

ridewithgps.com

[EDIT] And a more traditional format that would be ready to be used by the Tour as it is:

That would be a brutal stage -- Montée de Bisanne is a beast on its own -- but worth it to have the Col des Cyclotouristes in there. Last time I rode that years ago the surface was pretty bad, however.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Yeah, that one would be great.

Bisanne and Pre before Iseran (via Montvalezan) with a Mont Cenis MTF the day after a big MTF (let's say La Plagne or Plateau des Saix, just so that It's not always just de Col de la Loze) could also work.

I also would't mind a start in Courmayeur the day after a Le Bettex MTF. San Carlo-Petit Bernard-Roselend-Bisanne-Saisies before an uphill finish in Crest-Voland would be a really good shorter stage.

Something that I want to see in the future as a 2 climb combination is Cayolle-Pra Loup. One pretty much has to put 1 or even 2 good climbs before Cayolle, that one is hard to mess up.

That stage to Mont Cenis sounds awesome, especially using the full north side of the I'lseran which is a criminally underused beast.
But who would pay for the finish?

 

[Red Rick]

Iseran north isn't that hard? It's basically Galibier South hard, which never does anything early in a stage.

 

[Andy schleck]

Speaking of tough climbs that connect well, I wonder when we'll see Bisanne and Pré featuring together where they'll have greater impact than on the road to La Rosière in 2018.

Since the Tour favours noodle soups, let me illustrate with a design to Col des Saisies:

Annecy -> Col des Saisies

220.0 km, +7322 m. Bike ride in Veyrier-du-Lac, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes

ridewithgps.com

[EDIT] And a more traditional format that would be ready to be used by the Tour as it is:

Nice stage. Good work.

 

[houtdffan]

Iseran north isn't that hard? It's basically Galibier South hard, which never does anything early in a stage.

Only 30 riders made it over the Iseran in the lead group in 2007, and they only did the part after Val D'Isere

 

[OlavEH]

We should really have a stage including both (full) Iseran and Galibier once. Preferably with Granon or LDA as a MTF.

Also other high altitude combos like Cayolle-Bonette or Bonette-Lombarde.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Only 30 riders made it over the Iseran in the lead group in 2007, and they only did the part after Val D'Isere

Only 14 riders made it over Petralba in the 2016 Vuelta Formigal stage in the lead group. By your logic, that means that that's a brutal climb, and yet...

 

[gavia88]

Iseran north isn't that hard? It's basically Galibier South hard, which never does anything early in a stage.

VS

I would say Iseran North is quite a bit harder than Galibier North, although the final part of the Galibier is steeper.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Iseran north isn't that hard? It's basically Galibier South hard, which never does anything early in a stage.

I'd say it's more like Galibier from Southwest, so a bit harder than the classic run in from Briancon. It would also come after 2 legit HC climbs, at the right point of the race that could blow the race apart.

 

[Red Rick]

I'd say it's more like Galibier from Southwest, so a bit harder than the classic run in from Briancon. It would also come after 2 legit HC climbs, at the right point of the race that could blow the race apart.

What part of Iseran do you get though?

 

[Devil's Elbow]

What part of Iseran do you get though?

All of it, in this case. Bisanne > descend into Beaufort > Pré > Roselend > descend into Bourg-Saint-Maurice > head towards Iséran for a climb with 2000 metres of altitude gain - same route as the 2021 stage O'Connor won from Pré onwards, only heading towards Val d'Isère and then Iséran rather than Tignes where the roads split. Even with lowish gradients that's not an easy climb.

Only the part of Iséran after Val d'Isère, otoh, is nothing special - 14k at 6% is pretty meh even at that altitude. Basically Allos from the easy side but with the start and summit 500 metres higher.

 

[gavia88]

All of it, in this case. Bisanne > descend into Beaufort > Pré > Roselend > descend into Bourg-Saint-Maurice > head towards Iséran for a climb with 2000 metres of altitude gain - same route as the 2021 stage O'Connor won from Pré onwards, only heading towards Val d'Isère and then Iséran rather than Tignes where the roads split. Even with lowish gradients that's not an easy climb.

would indeed be a great design. Bisanne and Pré are decently steep. Iseran is long and you can already use the first half of that climb if you have the team to reduce the peloton to a small group. Attacks from the GC favorites can than happen in the last 10k of that climb.

 

[Mayomaniac]

What part of Iseran do you get though?

all the way from the bottom with a detour via Montvalenzan.
Something like this: https://www.cronoescalada.com/tracks/view/757536
Yeah, Bisanne at the start is probably a bit unrealistic for a modern Tour with it's u23 ranks mountain stages...

 

[Mayomaniac]

Otherwise a downhill finish in Bonneval-sur-Arc after bisannee and Col du Pre could also work. With a start in Albertville or Ugine that would be sub 160kms. Put that after a hard MTF and before an easy stage or the final rest day and you have a fun stage.

 

[Netserk]

If the (almost) full Iseran from Bourg-Saint-Maurice is to be the focal point of a stage, I'd prefer pure grind-fest with the finish at Bessans. You can take Montée d'Hauteville out or swap it with Côte de Montvalezan, and you can add Colombière before Aravis if you start from Cluses. A stage start like that of the 2021 Tignes stage is also an option, depending on how hard you want the stage to be.