3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeTour

[perico]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Yea, it's almost like 32 is peak age for mens aerobic fitness. This isn't 100m sprinting; a 22 year old performing on this level would be far more atypical.

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

I could name a few, but I don’t want to wade into clinic territory in this forum lol.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

Your like a broken record

Get used to it. It’s a discussion that will follow him around for the rest of his career.

Yet you are the only one who has brought it up .... again.

Personally I'm both astonished and disappointed by Bardet's performance. I don't blame him... it's just not there this year. Not surprised or astonished by Thomas at all ... it has been on the cards for years. I'm not that chuffed though ... I don't like SKY.

Alaphilippe is a star ... loving it, but not astonished, as I could see that coming too (ditto Roga). Disappointed in Movistar. Though Valverde has injected some entertainment.

Alaphilippe is definitely a star. He may never be a GC rider, but he's fun to watch.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Wonders:
1. Tom D: being competitive after the Giro
2. LottoNL: Roglic proving he can endure 3 weeks AND I'm also surprised to see Kruijswijk so good after a few weak seasons.
3. Alaphilippe winning KOM: He's not the best climber, but he's often managed to take points on climbs where I didn't expect it.

Disappointments:
1. Big GC riders underperforming: Landa, Quintana, Yates, Fuglsang and to a lesser extent Majka and Zakarin have also been below their best.
2. The 'old' super sprinters fading
3. Eventless mountain stages: AdH stage was good because Kruijswijk's attack added some suspense and urgency, but otherwise it's been dull

Other disappointments: circus development

 

[rlntlssly]

Re: Re:

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

By my reckoning this is the first time Thomas has tried to win the Tour. There was one other time he entered a GT as a co-leader. One. When he got taken out by a motorbike on the first mountain stage. In every other GT he has deliberately lost time.

Now, you may not be interested in this. You have a particular agenda to push, and you do it with elan, certainly, so full credit to you for that.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Wonders:
1. Bernal - We all knew he was going to be special but to look the strongest climber in the race today as youngest man was incredible.
2. Sagan - Cruising the Green Jersey is just what he does but to win bunch sprints and climb so well as he was today where he looked easy even when it was down to about 30 riders was otherworldly.
3. Roglic - I felt he was capable of a podium but to be within touching distance of it now is still an exceptional effort and it's great that he is still reaching out and attacking rather than trying to cling on to his position.

Disappointments:
1. Bardet/Landa - Much hyped and fading hard in the Pyrenees.
2. Nibali/Porte - Not really their fault but sad for the race that they did not get to feature in the big mountains fully due to crashes.
3. Demare/ Biased application of the rules - A grotesque distortion of fair play. Are we seriously expected to swallow as kosher that a man dropped after 400 metres of today's stage can ride solo and drop only 9 minutes on a HC 16km climb to Quintana and stay in the time limit. With Sagan banged up he could win tomorrow and that would devalue the race.

Honourable dispatches mention to Lawson Craddock for making it through after his day 1 crash and Phil Gil for a 60km ride with a fractured kneecap yet still finishing inside the time limit.

Good points on giving them honorable mentions. They deserve it.

One note on Landa, the crash on stage 9 injured his back. Disappointing yes, but with an asterisk.

Yes, noted, probably a little bit harsh of me to bracket him equally with Bardet.

Circumstantially disappointing because he lost time in the first 9 days on the flat with mechanicals and caught up with crashes but with the climbing legs he has displayed it would have been fascinating to see how Alaphillippe would have fared in the GC battle.

Although Alaphilippe reminds me a lot of a young Valverde, he's not close to as good of a climber as Valverde is. That's why he doesn't go after GC. He may be able to develop better climbing skills, but he doesn't seem interested in GC either.

 

[rick james]

Wonders -
1 - young Bernal
2 - Froome and Tom D being at the business end after such a tough Giro, Froomes 4 in a row was a good dream, Tom is still super strong
3 -That final climb today, beautiful

Disappointments
1 - Road side fans, behave yourself, the tour should not go back to the ADH for a long time.
2 - Movistar, what they tried doesn't work
3 -Demare, should be out the race

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

By my reckoning this is the first time Thomas has tried to win the Tour. There was one other time he entered a GT as a co-leader. One. When he got taken out by a motorbike on the first mountain stage. In every other GT he has deliberately lost time.

Now, you may not be interested in this. You have a particular agenda to push, and you do it with elan, certainly, so full credit to you for that.

For this to make any sense as an argument, you would have to imagine that no other GT winner had ever spent time as a domestique. In fact, most of them started out that way. What makes Thomas unusual - and when I say “unusual”, I actually mean “unique in over a century of pro cycling” - is that in all those GTs, over all that time, in various roles, he never got a halfway good result himself. When future Tour winners ride multiple GTs, in any role, they have always at some point posted excellent, good or at least decent GC results themselves. Not one domestique with that kind of talent has ever managed to avoid showing it in his own results for that long. There is nothing like Thomas record in the history of cycling.

By the way, your suggestion that maybe Thomas isn’t a converted classic rider but a foolish GC man who spent his best years overweight and bouncing around Belgian cobblestones is I think the cleverest “nothing to see here” argument I’ve seen so far.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

And please just kick that god awful individual that is Arnaud Démare out of the race.

What is the thing with Démare? I haven't really been paying attention.

Most likely held on to cars on more than one occasion the avoid the time cut

 

[Jspear]

1. Bernal has been awesome!
2. Sagan has been a beast.

The Bad
1. Bardet has been disappointing
2. Quintana (except for today) has been disappointing
3. The Sky train has been a pain to watch.
4. The fans have been awful
5. Adam Yates

 

[Cookster15]

Wonders:
1.Bernal.
2.Dumoulin
3.Roglic
Special mention to Dan Martin riding mega strong after his huge crash.

Disappointments:
1. Bardet (especially after today).
2. Quintana: Too little too late.
3. Yes the Tour. Worst since 2012. Same culprits. Strangled to death. Biggest budget to have domestiques capable of leading other teams.

 

[rlntlssly]

Re: Re:

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

By my reckoning this is the first time Thomas has tried to win the Tour. There was one other time he entered a GT as a co-leader. One. When he got taken out by a motorbike on the first mountain stage. In every other GT he has deliberately lost time.

Now, you may not be interested in this. You have a particular agenda to push, and you do it with elan, certainly, so full credit to you for that.

For this to make any sense as an argument, you would have to imagine that no other GT winner had ever spent time as a domestique. In fact, most of them started out that way. What makes Thomas unusual - and when I say “unusual”, I actually mean “unique in over a century of pro cycling” - is that in all those GTs, over all that time, in various roles, he never got a halfway good result himself. When future Tour winners ride multiple GTs, in any role, they have always at some point posted excellent, good or at least decent GC results themselves. Not one domestique with that kind of talent has ever managed to avoid showing it in his own results for that long. There is nothing like Thomas record in the history of cycling.

Yeah, but here's the key difference: Thomas has sometimes been the third domestique on the team. Surely you would admit that Thomas's lack of impressive results is at least to some extent a function of the nature and tactics of Team Sky? E.g. deliberately sitting up and losing time in 2015, for instance, once he knew he couldn't make the podium?

 

[Laplaz]

THE GOOD (Rogla, Dumo, Ala, G)
THE BAD (Demare, Yates, Kittel)
THE UGLY (ASO, french "fans")

 

[rlntlssly]

Astonishments:
The distance cyclists are able to ride with serious injuries
Roglic actually being the new Landa
Egan Bernal

Disappointments:
Movistar
How the secondary classifications haven't been remotely close. The yellow jersey battle has been the closest
The way the stage designs have discouraged long-range attacking

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

By my reckoning this is the first time Thomas has tried to win the Tour. There was one other time he entered a GT as a co-leader. One. When he got taken out by a motorbike on the first mountain stage. In every other GT he has deliberately lost time.

Now, you may not be interested in this. You have a particular agenda to push, and you do it with elan, certainly, so full credit to you for that.

For this to make any sense as an argument, you would have to imagine that no other GT winner had ever spent time as a domestique. In fact, most of them started out that way. What makes Thomas unusual - and when I say “unusual”, I actually mean “unique in over a century of pro cycling” - is that in all those GTs, over all that time, in various roles, he never got a halfway good result himself. When future Tour winners ride multiple GTs, in any role, they have always at some point posted excellent, good or at least decent GC results themselves. Not one domestique with that kind of talent has ever managed to avoid showing it in his own results for that long. There is nothing like Thomas record in the history of cycling.

Yeah, but here's the key difference: Thomas has sometimes been the third domestique on the team. Surely you would admit that Thomas's lack of impressive results is at least to some extent a function of the nature and tactics of Team Sky? E.g. deliberately sitting up and losing time in 2015, for instance, once he knew he couldn't make the podium?

I wouldn’t just “admit” that, I think it’s very clear that riding as a domestique and in particular doing so on a very regimented team limited his results. I am however aware that those kind of (real) limitations have applied to a lot of riders but have never previously produced a thirty something (presumptive) Tour winner with such a long and uniform record of GC mediocrity before.

I’m not, by the way, insisting that Thomas unique record can only be explained by nefarious antics even though his fans here seem to be convinced that I am. I’m just insisting that it is factually a unique record and needs explaining as a weird outlier. And I find myself getting tetchy at people waving it away as no big deal or nothing unusual or claiming that his Tour winning potential was somehow “obvious”. If his Tour winning potential was obvious, then there are dozens of riders whose better results would appear to make them nailed on GT champions.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

By my reckoning this is the first time Thomas has tried to win the Tour. There was one other time he entered a GT as a co-leader. One. When he got taken out by a motorbike on the first mountain stage. In every other GT he has deliberately lost time.

Now, you may not be interested in this. You have a particular agenda to push, and you do it with elan, certainly, so full credit to you for that.

For this to make any sense as an argument, you would have to imagine that no other GT winner had ever spent time as a domestique. In fact, most of them started out that way. What makes Thomas unusual - and when I say “unusual”, I actually mean “unique in over a century of pro cycling” - is that in all those GTs, over all that time, in various roles, he never got a halfway good result himself. When future Tour winners ride multiple GTs, in any role, they have always at some point posted excellent, good or at least decent GC results themselves. Not one domestique with that kind of talent has ever managed to avoid showing it in his own results for that long. There is nothing like Thomas record in the history of cycling.

Yeah, but here's the key difference: Thomas has sometimes been the third domestique on the team. Surely you would admit that Thomas's lack of impressive results is at least to some extent a function of the nature and tactics of Team Sky? E.g. deliberately sitting up and losing time in 2015, for instance, once he knew he couldn't make the podium?

I wouldn’t just “admit” that, I think it’s very clear that riding as a domestique and in particular doing so on a very regimented team limited his results. I am however aware that those kind of (real) limitations have applied to a lot of riders but have never previously produced a thirty something (presumptive) Tour winner with such a long and uniform record of GC mediocrity before.

I’m not, by the way, insisting that Thomas unique record can only be explained by nefarious antics even though his fans here seem to be convinced that I am. I’m just insisting that it is factually a unique record and needs explaining as a weird outlier. And I find myself getting tetchy at people waving it away as no big deal or nothing unusual or claiming that his Tour winning potential was somehow “obvious”. If his Tour winning potential was obvious, then there are dozens of riders whose better results would appear to make them nailed on GT champions.

Who?

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Oh my god, you're just never shutting up about that, are you?

As I have stated many times; This is NOT that big of a surprise if you have followed his career trajectory the last few years instead of just browsing through his PCS page!

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Yea, it's almost like 32 is peak age for mens aerobic fitness. This isn't 100m sprinting; a 22 year old performing on this level would be far more atypical.

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

Maurice Garin.

 

[jmdirt]

Bad-
1-TTT
2-Crashes
3-Road side idiots

Good-
1-Sagan, Alaphilippe, Thomas
2-Lawson Craddock
3-Direct Energy

 

[rlntlssly]

Re: Re:

I’m just insisting that it is factually a unique record and needs explaining as a weird outlier. And I find myself getting tetchy at people waving it away as no big deal or nothing unusual or claiming that his Tour winning potential was somehow “obvious”.

FWIW I think it's unusual and perhaps an outlier, but less inexplicable and weird than you think.

 

[movingtarget]

Porte and Nibali crashing out.
The Tour route mainly the mountain stages.
Yates form.

Highlights : Thomas and his race so far.
Roglic the same.
Bernal's ride so far.

 

[120mmStem]

Re:

Wonders:
1.Bernal.
2.Dumoulin
3.Roglic
Special mention to Dan Martin riding mega strong after his huge crash.

Disappointments:
1. Bardet (especially after today).
2. Quintana: Too little too late.
3. Yes the Tour. Worst since 2012. Same culprits. Strangled to death. Biggest budget to have domestiques capable of leading other teams.

This is the biggest problem with the last few editions of the tour. Thomas is now the proof.

Wonders:
1. Roglic (saw this coming a mile away)
2. Alaphillipe (what a class act)
3. Dumoulin after thee giro

Disappointments:
1. Movistar
2. Bardet
3. Froome (not a fan but I was looking forward to watching something monumental)

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Astonishments:
1. Dumoulin by miles
2. Bernal
3. Roglic

4. Froome, proving he is not a bot after all


Disappointments:
1. stage 9
2. Porte crashing again
3. Movistar

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Good. Roglic and Krusher, Alaphlippe, Bernal, Dumo, Dan Martin, Thomas, Froome (he's won the last 3 tours and still been competitive in this one)

The not so good. Minority of fans, Movistar tactics, top end sprinters, the mouth (Brailsford)

The cr@p. The crashes taking out 2 riders who could potentially have totally changed the podium standings.


I think Thomas has deserved where he is at the moment and hope he goes on to win. He can only beat who is put in front of him. To those who say he has been dragged up the hills to attack within the last 3/5 km to make his time up, so has every one else in the race. All the other leaders have just had to sit in the wheels of SKY (because their doms are $h1t) and wait for their moment to attack, but none have, until yesterday. Movistar need to ge back to the drawing board and Quintana needs to leave. It will be interesting to see what happens to that team once he does and Valverde retires.

 

[thrawn]

Quintana has been disappointing again. He always peaks in week 3, by which time he's usually too far behind to win the race. He really needs to alter his training program to aim to peak for the first group of mountains.

 

[SafeBet]

Wonders:

- Bernal: I'm not sure everyone grasps what this kid is doing. He was probably the third strongest rider yesterday, a tough (albeit short) mountain stage in the third week of the Tour.

Disappointments:

- Zakarin: after climbing with the very best in his past two GTs this was a huge step back. His spring was probably a hint of things to come, but I was blind and kept believing. Huge letdown for me.