34 arrested in Spain

[mulletCobra]

There is a reason to let Alberto keep the tour title. Taking the title will make the whole 2010 tour meaningless.

Just like the 2006 tour.. meaningless. So if someone wins any race, then test positive for a banned substance, They shouldn't nullify the rider's results? They should just sweep it under the table. Because then the 5 hours they spent on a sunday would have all been in vain.

 

[minessa]

Several problems with that viewpoint.

One, there was one cyclist caught up in this clenbuterol ring, and Clentador is a cyclist who frequents Tenerife. That, to me, is the more likely implication of this ring to Contador's case in addition to the blood transfusion one I articulated before.

Two, Clentador will not be able to show that the source of the "cut of meat" he ate was in fact contaminated with clenbuterol. Merely throwing out a case on an island 1,000 miles away from where his alleged contaminated meat was allegedly purchased is hardly a compelling argument.

Three, Clentador has locked himself into a story that will likely prove to be his undoing. The person who purchased the meat will have to testify in a hearing where he got it and then the burden of proof will be on Clentador to buy some meat there, have it tested, and then, what? We all know what those test results are going to reveal. In fact, Contador's camp doesn't seem to be too eager to mention the place where the meat was purchased, and I think we all know why.

Four, if Clentador's "contaminated meat" excuse is accepted, I don't see how any sport or WADA ever enforces a future clenbuterol positive again since all an athlete would have to do is point to the Clentador precedent (not to mention the ping pong player one in China). Since WADA and CAS know this, they will never allow such a precedent to happen.

You say:"Clentador is a cyclist who frequents Tenerife. " Links please?

 

[Chuffy]

2.) In order for Clentador to use this as a defense he would in fact have to trace his "cut of meat" to this exact cattle rancher who was arrested. We both know that's not going to happen. As of right now, Clentador doesn't seem to want to even divulge where he got the meat because he knows journalists would go back there, buy some meat, and have it tested. And we all know what those test results would show.

Wow, that's amazing, I'd never have thought of it like that. After all, it's impossible to believe that a butcher could have meat from more than one animal in their shop and only a complete fool would believe that there could be more than one rancher doping their cattle. Truly I bow down before your logical reasoning.

My main concern is this forums credibility.

Don't worry, you have little to concern yourself about.

 

[jae2460]

There is a reason to let Alberto keep the tour title. Taking the title will make the whole 2010 tour meaningless.

I don't know about that. While it's hard to feel great about Oscar Pereiro's "WIN" of 2006, Andy Schleck was obviously very close to Alberto's level. It was a competitive tour, not as weird as 2006.

Barring evidence that Schleck doped, 2010 would be Andy's victory. While not ideal, comparing 2010 to 2006 for me is apples and oranges. And Andy will be the favorite in 2011, perhaps regardless of Contador's presence given the route was seemingly tailor made for him.

I don't share other posters' panache for conspiracy theories, but if I did I might wonder if there was a reason ASO tailored next year towards Andy (i.e. less time trials) and if there was a reason last year was seemingly tailored towards Alberto rather than Lance (i.e. no TTT).

 

[TERMINATOR]

There is a reason to let Alberto keep the tour title. Taking the title will make the whole 2010 tour meaningless.

Damn, are you dumb.

 

[Polish]

Now we know why Astana's November 2008 training camp (with Contador and *********) was in Tenerife on the Canary Islands...

This obviously hurts Contador. I think that's obvious to anyone with an impartial, unbiased interest of the case.

The rules were what the rules were--Clenbuterol is a banned substance and any trace is considered doping. Period.

Anything short of stripping his title and keeping him out of at least one more Tour will be a joke and quite possibly could irreparably hurt cycling.

Stripping Contador of his title may hurt cycling as well, but changing the rules after the fact would be a farce.

+1.

Also, Alberto trained there in 2009. The year of "NeedleGate".
Maybe it is time for Alberto to offer up his DNA for testing.
You know, to clear his name.

Did Alberto train or vacation there in this year?

Also, anyone know who the Busted Cyclist was?

 

[flicker]

I just think it is really sad that in a tour where there was authentic rivalry between Alberto and Andy that the victory is decided by Albertos DQ.

I would have enjoyed seeing the 2 of them duke it out in 2011.

I am dissappointed but I am being selfish. I do not think they should cut the dopers slack. Unless of course it is a "Witch Hunt".

 

[TERMINATOR]

Wow, that's amazing, I'd never have thought of it like that. After all, it's impossible to believe that a butcher could have meat from more than one animal in their shop and only a complete fool would believe that there could be more than one rancher doping their cattle. Truly I bow down before your logical reasoning.

Yes, it is impossible to believe that since Contador failed to explain to the media how come he and his camp have had almost 2 months to investigate the source of clenbuterol, and to date, have failed to identify the butcher, let alone show they sell contaminated beef.

The burden is on Contador to prove his meet was tainted. Otherwise, it goes down as an intentional ingestion. I think we all know how come Contador's people haven't identified the place where he got the beef...it's because the media/WADA will be able to trace the source of the meat supplier and prove that they do not use clenbuterol at that cattle ranch.

In all cases of contaminated supplements, the athletes have the supplements tested, and most show contamination.

How come Clentador has yet to do this? The guy certainly has the money to do it. I think we all know why Clentador doesn't test the meat.

Take care.

 

[TERMINATOR]

You say:"Clentador is a cyclist who frequents Tenerife. " Links please?

Don't post in here if (1) you need a basic education in the sport of professional cycling and (2) you don't know how to use Google.

Thanks.

 

[bigloco]

video of a couple blokes in Tenerife that look like they both just enjoyed a fabulous steak with all the trimmings

http://www.rtve.es/mediateca/videos/20081211/armstrong-contador-juntos-astana/359670.shtml

 

[Oldman]

Let me help you and the rest of the Clentador fans out there, which apparently includes Andrew Hood over at Velosnooze

(http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...rol-ring-used-in-horses-livestock_147239?news)

1.) The Grand Canary Islands are a 3 hour plane flight from Spain and 3 days by ship. It is very unlikely that beef from cattle on the island chain is exported to mainland Spain where cattle ranches are plentiful on far cheaper land. It would be the equivalent of the Virgin Islands exporting beef to the state of Texas.

2.) In order for Clentador to use this as a defense he would in fact have to trace his "cut of meat" to this exact cattle rancher who was arrested. We both know that's not going to happen. As of right now, Clentador doesn't seem to want to even divulge where he got the meat because he knows journalists would go back there, buy some meat, and have it tested. And we all know what those test results would show.

3.) I couldn't help but notice a cyclist was also busted in this sting, and we both know that Clentador is fond of training in Tenerife Norde in the Canary Islands. I find it hilarious that Andrew Hood doesn't think this is actually evidence that will go against Clentador, since it shows that there is a clenbuterol underground where Clentador is known to frequent for training.

4.) If Clentador's case is about contaminated beef related to this Canary island case, it would seem to me that he ate contaminated meat at the Canary Islands, and then withdrew 1 liter of blood, which when later infused during the Tour de France caused him to test positive. Other than that, I don't see how you link a contaminated herd of cattle in the Canary Islands with a "cut of meat" located 1,000 miles away near the French border.

I don't care how you Pro Tour swallowers cut this side of beef, it doesn't do Jack for Clentador. The guy is a major league doper.

+one serious financial fact: if it's this difficult and likely expensive to get Chlen; do you seriously think a rancher would actually spend the money? Feed the heifer some beer and be done with it.

 

[PotentialPro]

I think the most relevant part is:

However, in this case the product has allegedly been supplied to farmers to fatten up cattle

Which could help Contador in his case.

Among those arrested were 13 pharmacists, eight pharmacy assistants, nine veterinarians, a cattle-breeder, a pharmaceutical salesman, a bodybuilder and a cyclist.

How about we focus on these pharmacists, assistants, and vets? The cyclist is somewhat inconsequential here, yes it points to something. The focus should be on 13 pharmacists, 8 assistants and 9 vets. Think about this, it takes 30 people to setup doping of one or several race horses? This is a doping ring, getting Clen from these sources, for the resale. Yes, some of the resale was to ranchers, however with the tie to several athletes, and with more I am sure to follow, the possible intention here is no equine based, but for performance enhancing based. Why else would there be 30 people involved for this much injection into cattle and horses? It was already pointed out that the industry in the Canaries is extremely small, why 30 people in regards to that? If there is bleed over to the mainland of Spain, then possibly we have something bigger. Remember it didnt take Joe Papp to have 30 people for distro to hundreds of athletes.
If you search clenbuterol on the internet, its the new Hollywood weightloss miracle. Perhaps the Canaries are a portal to this area, where nearly anyone can get pills and injections and lose weight easily? There are several that will prescribe Clen and HGH together, so that you can lose nearly 1 pound per day.

 

[scribe]

Damn. I wonder if Dr Maserati made it out of this one unscathed?

 

[minessa]

Don't post in here if (1) you need a basic education in the sport of professional cycling and (2) you don't know how to use Google.

Thanks.

There is no need to attack me. Yes, he was in Tenerife in december 2008 with Astana Team, but you say, he frequents Tenerife.You either have prove of it or it is a lie.

 

[HoustonHammer]

+one serious financial fact: if it's this difficult and likely expensive to get Chlen; do you seriously think a rancher would actually spend the money? Feed the heifer some beer and be done with it.

This is a great point. The only reason for a rancher to use Clen on his herd is the financial benefit. If high cost of the drug removes that benefit, he won't do it, pure and simple. I haven't seen any information about cost of Clen, but this is an avenue worthy of investigation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Damn. I wonder if Dr Maserati made it out of this one unscathed?

No - I should be fine.

Only thing I can be accused of is trying to inject (non enhancing) humour in to some stale threads.

 

[bigloco]

This is a great point. The only reason for a rancher to use Clen on his herd is the financial benefit. If high cost of the drug removes that benefit, he won't do it, pure and simple. I haven't seen any information about cost of Clen, but this is an avenue worthy of investigation.

I grew up on a cattle ranch, so you may call me for your expert witness!

other reasons,

1. Show Cattle.
2. Bull Fighting Bulls
3. Rodeo bulls.

2 I suppose could be a possibility in this case...but its really a stretch!

 

[lean mean &green]

This is a great point. The only reason for a rancher to use Clen on his herd is the financial benefit. If high cost of the drug removes that benefit, he won't do it, pure and simple. I haven't seen any information about cost of Clen, but this is an avenue worthy of investigation.

i had this thought back when the clenbuterol news first broke. what's the risk/reward look like for a cattle ranch owner? not only the actual cost of "medicating" livestock versus the added value when going to market but add to that the potentially catastrophic damages (fines, loss of reputation/sales, etc). at some point it's just not worth it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Several problems with that viewpoint.

One, there was one cyclist caught up in this clenbuterol ring, and Clentador is a cyclist who frequents Tenerife. That, to me, is the more likely implication of this ring to Contador's case in addition to the blood transfusion one I articulated before.

Two, Clentador will not be able to show that the source of the "cut of meat" he ate was in fact contaminated with clenbuterol. Merely throwing out a case on an island 1,000 miles away from where his alleged contaminated meat was allegedly purchased is hardly a compelling argument.

Three, Clentador has locked himself into a story that will likely prove to be his undoing. The person who purchased the meat will have to testify in a hearing where he got it and then the burden of proof will be on Clentador to buy some meat there, have it tested, and then, what? We all know what those test results are going to reveal. In fact, Contador's camp doesn't seem to be too eager to mention the place where the meat was purchased, and I think we all know why.

Four, if Clentador's "contaminated meat" excuse is accepted, I don't see how any sport or WADA ever enforces a future clenbuterol positive again since all an athlete would have to do is point to the Clentador precedent (not to mention the ping pong player one in China). Since WADA and CAS know this, they will never allow such a precedent to happen.

I agree with you.

I was just trying to make sense of where the UCI might be going with this. But you are absolutely right. I have said many times in my posts, Contador is guilty of the positive because of your reasons and many more.

 

[Polyarmour]

+one serious financial fact: if it's this difficult and likely expensive to get Chlen; do you seriously think a rancher would actually spend the money? Feed the heifer some beer and be done with it.

Somehow it must make financial sense as we know it happens in Mexico and China.

Furthermore, with stud bulls fetching up to $50,000/head I don't think it would be beyond a European farmer to be using it as well.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Somehow it must make financial sense as we know it happens in Mexico and China.

Furthermore, with stud bulls fetching up to $50,000/head I don't think it would be beyond a European farmer to be using it as well.

The drug itself is probably not costly since its an old formula that is probably produced as a generic. So, if it's legal it's probably cheap.

Where that changes is in a place where it's illegal and there is rule of law. Like Spain (don't laugh). Breaking the law means taking risks and people expect to be compensated for risk.

So, it might make really good sense in Mexico and China, but not in Spain. Maybe. But I really don't know anything about the economics, so it's just idle speculation anyway.

EDIT: You're probably right about the stud bull, but chopping up your stud bulls for steaks is the definition of nonsense.

 

[scribe]

I grew up on a cattle ranch, so you may call me for your expert witness!

other reasons,

1. Show Cattle.
2. Bull Fighting Bulls
3. Rodeo bulls.

2 I suppose could be a possibility in this case...but its really a stretch!

Show cattle are often sent to slaughter for consumption at a premium, right?

 

[icefire]

I grew up on a cattle ranch, so you may call me for your expert witness!

other reasons,

1. Show Cattle.
2. Bull Fighting Bulls
3. Rodeo bulls.

2 I suppose could be a possibility in this case...but its really a stretch!

Quite a stretch. The Canary Islands never had any tradition of bull fighting. In fact, bull fighting was banned there by their regional government some 20 years ago and nobody complained because there had not been any bullfight in more than 5 years before the ban.

 

[bigloco]

Quite a stretch. The Canary Islands never had any tradition of bull fighting. In fact, bull fighting was banned there by their regional government some 20 years ago and nobody complained because there had not been any bullfight in more than 5 years before the ban.

but Irun, where he "they bought the beef" does, hell I saw my first bullfight just down the road a peice in a little town called Pamplona.

I think the whole beef conspiracy is ridiculous, but I'm willing to play devils advocate.

As far as other points...show cattle get eaten...but usually when they're older as they're used to breed as much as possible. You would have stopped giving them clen at the point you stopped showing them, which would be long before they were eaten.

I've eaten bull before a few times (including creadillas in Spain!) and its not something you'd pick up as a "choice" meat and not something you'd "eat again the next day because it was so good"

 

[scribe]

Good information.

Also. What are the precise benefits of Clen while given to Beef Cattle, and/or other types as illustrated in your previous posts?