55th Tour de l'Avenir, 17/8 - 26/8 (2.Ncup)

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Odd really, with the great cycling culture in Belgium, that they so rarely produce GT contenders.

Meanwhile, Holland, right next door (and much flatter), seem to be pumping them out with great regularity.

 

[DNP-Old]

1 Gino MÄDER (Suisse)
2 Ivan Ramiro SOSA (Colombie)
3 Robert STANNARD (Australie)
4 Aleksandr VLASOV (Russie)

Mader attacked in the descent and held on. Seems like Sosa has taken some time back on the yellow jersey too.

 

[Alexandre B.]

1 Gino MÄDER (Suisse)
2 Ivan Ramiro SOSA (Colombie)
3 Robert STANNARD (Australie)
4 Aleksandr VLASOV (Russie)
5 Tadej POGAČAR (Slovénie)
6 Clément CHAMPOUSSIN (France)
7 Brandon MCNULTY (Etats-Unis)
8 Alejandro OSORIO CARVAJAL (Colombie)
9 Jonas GREGAARD WILSLY (Danemark)
10 Edward DUNBAR (Irlande)
11 Tobias S. FOSS (Norvège)
12 Fernando BARCELO ARAGON (Espagne)
13 Félix GALL (Autriche)
14 Thymen ARENSMAN (Pays-Bas)
15 Andrea BAGIOLI (Italie)
16 Samuele BATTISTELLA (Italie)
17 Georg ZIMMERMANN (Allemagne)
18 João ALMEIDA (Portugal)
19 Torjus SLEEN (Norvège)
20 Mark DONOVAN (Grande-Bretagne)
21 Franklin ARCHIBOLD (Centre Mondial du Cyclisme)
22 Harm VANHOUCKE (Belgique)
23 Hafetab WELDU (Centre Mondial du Cyclisme)
24 Javier Ignacio MONTOYA MONTOYA (Colombie)
25 Gordian BANZER (Suisse)

 

[barmaher]

Any ideas on the gaps?

 

[slosada]

Re:

Any ideas on the gaps?

Nothing! 45 minutes after the stage finished

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

Any ideas on the gaps?

Sosa finished 15 seconds behind Mader. That's all I know. Unconfirmed information is that Sosa put about 20 seconds into Pogacar and co.

 

[DNP-Old]

Well, he didn't.

1 MÄDER Gino SUISSE SUI les 81,1 km en 2h11'24'' (moy. 37,032 km/h)
2 SOSA CUERVO Ivan Ramiro COLOMBIE COL 15''
3 STANNARD Robert AUSTRALIE AUS '
4 VLASOV Aleksandr RUSSIE RUS '
5 POGACAR Tadej SLOVENIE SLO '
6 CHAMPOUSSIN Clement FRANCE FRA '
7 MCNULTY Brandon USA USA '
8 OSORIO CARVAJAL Alejandro COLOMBIE COL '
9 GREGAARD WILSLY Jonas DANEMARK DEN '
10 DUNBAR Edward IRLANDE IRL '
11 FOSS Tobias S. NORVEGE NOR '
12 GALL Felix AUTRICHE AUT '
13 BARCELO ARAGON Fernando ESPAGNE ESP '
14 ARENSMAN Thymen PAYS-BAS NED '
15 RIES Michel LUXEMBOURG LUX '
16 BAGIOLI Andrea ITALIE ITA 20''
17 BATTISTELLA Samuele ITALIE ITA '
18 ZIMMERMANN Georg ALLEMAGNE GER '
19 ALMEIDA João PORTUGAL POR '
20 SLEEN Torjus NORVEGE NOR 25''

 

[Escarabajo]

Shut!

With those profiles Sosa is going to have a hard time discounting the time he lost in the TTT. Lol.

We need harder stages.

 

[slosada]

Well, this official profile is wrong:

Check the height of Ste Foy vs La Thuile.
What is true is that it finishes with 8Km flat where a climber like Sosa can be caught by a group.

Yet, some people in Colombia keep saying it was a good TTT because they only lost 1:39 despite having 33% of the riders dedicated to that particular stage

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Odd really, with the great cycling culture in Belgium, that they so rarely produce GT contenders.

Meanwhile, Holland, right next door (and much flatter), seem to be pumping them out with great regularity.

Since the 70's & 80's, the focus has (unfortunately) been on classics almost exclusively. Belgium has been spitting out classics winners left and right (Museeuw, Boonen, Gilbert, Van Avermaet...) but not so much on the GT side. However which GT contenders has Holland been "pumping out with great regularity", other than their current generation? We've also had guys like Axel Merckx, Kurt Van de Wouwer inside the top 10 of the TDF (in a "difficult" era) in the past, if you feel like those results qualify as "GT contender". Criquelion finished top 10 in the TDF a couple of times (incl top 5) and a podium in the Vuelta between 79 and 90. Both Vandenbrouck and De Gendt finished top 3 in a GT not too long ago. If you take Dumoulin out of the equation, the difference is not quite as big as you make it out to be, imo. They have strength in numbers at the moment, this can't be denied, and as a Belgian, all we can do is hope for the future and cheer a bit for the Dutch in the meanwhile. But i don't agree that they've been pumping them out regularly. If you go back in time 10 years, who did they have in the GT's top 10? In 2008, there was not one Dutch rider in a top 10 in any GT. Jurgen Vandenbrouck finished 6th in the Giro that year. If you go back 10 more years, you'll find Boogerd 5th for Holland and A. Merckx 10th for Belgium in the TDF. No top 10 in Giro or Vuelta.

The focus has only recently starting shifting a bit towards GC/GT, with guys like De Plus, Lambrecht (2nd behind Bernal last year in l'Avenir), and hopefully Evenepoel. We'll see how that goes though. Wellens was also supposed to become a GT contender, and Vervaeke seems to have hit a bump the past two years and needs to get some results that can help him get back on track. That's why they should try to keep Evenepoel out of the spotlights, because there is too much attention focused on him at the moment, carrying the weight of hopes and dreams of a small nation.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

Shut!

With those profiles Sosa is going to have a hard time discounting the time he lost in the TTT. Lol.

We need harder stages.

The hardest (and longest) mountain stage is yet to come. The past two stages have been not all that hard and extremely short, which benefits Pogacar and McNulty (and other U23s). The ultimate day finishes with Col du Chaussy, which is really tough and long, followed by the climb to Saint Colomban des Villards. If the team makes it tough on Chaussy like they did yesterday, Sosito should still be good to win.

 

[Escarabajo]

That was a horrible TTT. Probably the worst outcome (without a crash). I am not sure who is saying it was a good result.

 

[slosada]

Re:

That was a horrible TTT. Probably the worst outcome (without a crash). I am not sure who is saying it was a good result.

It starts here:
http://www.federacioncolombianadeci...a-presentacion-en-la-cre-del-tour-de-lavenir/
And then you can scan all media with analysis and interviews with the DS and the riders
http://revistamundociclistico.com/r...colombia-a-138-hakon-aalrust-nuevo-lider.html

At the very end, the regular Joe keeps thinking the same old concepts:
1. oh, that's not bad, we really suck in TTs...
2. when the mountain comes... noone can follow the Colombians

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Shut!

With those profiles Sosa is going to have a hard time discounting the time he lost in the TTT. Lol.

We need harder stages.

The hardest (and longest) mountain stage is yet to come. The past two stages have been not all that hard and extremely short, which benefits Pogacar and McNulty (and other U23s). The ultimate day finishes with Col du Chaussy, which is really tough and long, followed by the climb to Saint Colomban des Villards. If the team makes it tough on Chaussy like they did yesterday, Sosito should still be good to win.

Chaussy is not that hard imo. But there is a very steep stretch 9km's into the climb, where the best climbers in the race should try to attack. I don't know the piece of road (D99) from the top of Chaussy that connects to the descent of Madeleine (the descent they will take), but I think it might be fairly technical based on maps. Ideal for attacks

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Odd really, with the great cycling culture in Belgium, that they so rarely produce GT contenders.

Meanwhile, Holland, right next door (and much flatter), seem to be pumping them out with great regularity.

Since the 70's & 80's, the focus has (unfortunately) been on classics almost exclusively. Belgium has been spitting out classics winners left and right (Museeuw, Boonen, Gilbert, Van Avermaet...) but not so much on the GT side. However which GT contenders has Holland been "pumping out with great regularity", other than their current generation? We've also had guys like Axel Merckx, Kurt Van de Wouwer inside the top 10 of the TDF (in a "difficult" era) in the past, if you feel like those results qualify as "GT contender". Criquelion finished top 10 in the TDF a couple of times (incl top 5) and a podium in the Vuelta between 79 and 90. Both Vandenbrouck and De Gendt finished top 3 in a GT not too long ago. If you take Dumoulin out of the equation, the difference is not quite as big as you make it out to be, imo. They have strength in numbers at the moment, this can't be denied, and as a Belgian, all we can do is hope for the future and cheer a bit for the Dutch in the meanwhile. But i don't agree that they've been pumping them out regularly. If you go back in time 10 years, who did they have in the GT's top 10? In 2008, there was not one Dutch rider in a top 10 in any GT. Jurgen Vandenbrouck finished 6th in the Giro that year. If you go back 10 more years, you'll find Boogerd 5th for Holland and A. Merckx 10th for Belgium in the TDF. No top 10 in Giro or Vuelta.

The focus has only recently starting shifting a bit towards GC/GT, with guys like De Plus, Lambrecht (2nd behind Bernal last year in l'Avenir), and hopefully Evenepoel. We'll see how that goes though. Wellens was also supposed to become a GT contender, and Vervaeke seems to have hit a bump the past two years and needs to get some results that can help him get back on track. That's why they should try to keep Evenepoel out of the spotlights, because there is too much attention focused on him at the moment, carrying the weight of hopes and dreams of a small nation.

We have different definitions of a contender

In my book, it's riders that aim for the top 10, and ride GC from start to finish.

I cannot remember many grand tours, the last 30 years, that has been without some dutch guy in the mix, where as we rarely see belgian riders in the same situation.

It's not a dig against belgians or for the dutch - I'm danish, so I don't care either way - I was just curious about why it was that way, when Belgium is arguably the "home of cycling".

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Vereecken and especially Mertens did very well in Isard. Now in Avenir they're just bad, though they have been pretty disappointing ever since Isard.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

i was mainly thinking of Vereecken and Mertens. I knew about Vanhoucke's problems

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

We have different definitions of a contender

In my book, it's riders that aim for the top 10, and ride GC from start to finish.

I cannot remember many grand tours, the last 30 years, that has been without some dutch guy in the mix, where as we rarely see belgian riders in the same situation.

It's not a dig against belgians or for the dutch - I'm danish, so I don't care either way - I was just curious about why it was that way, when Belgium is arguably the "home of cycling".

Well, in that case i understood your meaning of "contender", and i still don't agree. Which Dutch riders are you talking/thinking of then, before this generation? You claim they have a constant stream of GC riders. Who was there between Boogerd and Gesink? Like i said, randomly looking at 10 years ago, there was no Dutch rider in any top 10 of any GT. Maybe my memory is failing me though, i won't rule that out. And if top 10 GC is what you are talking about, well, like i said, we've also had some guys there the past two decades. The thing is, the Dutch are much less succesful in the classics, so their results in the GT's get more attention or stand out more. For us, it's exactly the other way around.

i was mainly thinking of Vereecken and Mertens. I knew about Vanhoucke's problems

Mertens is very inconsistent as well. I wasn't surprised in the least to see him drop all the way back. So for me, it wasn't a disappointment.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

We have different definitions of a contender

In my book, it's riders that aim for the top 10, and ride GC from start to finish.

I cannot remember many grand tours, the last 30 years, that has been without some dutch guy in the mix, where as we rarely see belgian riders in the same situation.

It's not a dig against belgians or for the dutch - I'm danish, so I don't care either way - I was just curious about why it was that way, when Belgium is arguably the "home of cycling".

Well, in that case i understood your meaning of "contender", and i still don't agree. Which Dutch riders are you talking/thinking of then, before this generation? You claim they have a constant stream of GC riders. Who was there between Boogerd and Gesink? Like i said, randomly looking at 10 years ago, there was no Dutch rider in any top 10 of any GT. Maybe my memory is failing me though, i won't rule that out. And if top 10 GC is what you are talking about, well, like i said, we've also had some guys there the past two decades. The thing is, the Dutch are much less succesful in the classics, so their results in the GT's get more attention or stand out more. For us, it's exactly the other way around.

Your perspective is too short - I'm talking:

Zoetemelk
Rooks
Breukink
Theunisse
Etc.

 

[JoeD1997]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Vereecken and especially Mertens did very well in Isard. Now in Avenir they're just bad, though they have been pretty disappointing ever since Isard.

Vereecken has had some knee problems and also school work this season, he was hardly racing in the early part of the year. I just think he lacks the legs and racing KMs this year to be at his 2017 level. Mertens I think just looked good in Isard and had top form, I feel he is more of a puncheur than GC rider, I didn't expect much from him. I feel Thijssen should have done better in the sprints and for me has been the biggest Belgian disappointment, especially if he is to step up to the LS WT team after this season.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Your perspective is too short - I'm talking:

Zoetemelk
Rooks
Breukink
Theunisse
Etc.

But... Zoetemelk rode against Merckx... you know. A Belgian. So how far back do you want to go then? This doesn't make sense regarding your statement that they have a constant stream of GT contenders. You have gaps of whole decades without guys like that. But anyway, then i call Merckx, Van Impe, De Vlaeminck, Criquielion, Vandebrouck, De Gendt, Pollentier, De Muynck, Van Springel, Maertens... Belgian GT wins: 32. Dutch GT wins: 5.

It seems that you want to make a case starting from 1980 on. For which i will refer you to my previous post. This is the moment that Belgium started to produce mainly classics riders. I'm sure there's an explanation for it, maybe this was the beginning of the era where you had to pick one or the other, and when it started to be much more difficult to be both a GT contender and a classics rider, and maybe they just loved the classics more.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

The Belgians were kinda disappointing...

Not really. Unless you expected guys that can't climb (well), to start climbing with the best all of a sudden. Vanhoucke is 1 minute down in GC, he also lacks consistency as a GC rider, has been ill, and we'll have to wait and see how representative such an unusual short climbing stage is.

Vereecken and especially Mertens did very well in Isard. Now in Avenir they're just bad, though they have been pretty disappointing ever since Isard.

Vereecken has had some knee problems and also school work this season, he was hardly racing in the early part of the year. I just think he lacks the legs and racing KMs this year to be at his 2017 level. Mertens I think just looked good in Isard and had top form, I feel he is more of a puncheur than GC rider, I didn't expect much from him. I feel Thijssen should have done better in the sprints and for me has been the biggest Belgian disappointment, especially if he is to step up to the LS WT team after this season.

Even though Mertens is more of a puncheur, it's still only u23 and Isard actually had a tough MTF where he showed he can climb. Not that I 'expected' him to do top-10 or top-15 or so, but he's been many minutes down on stages that are far from hard.

Belgium as a whole have been mediocre. I thought Verschaeve for example was co-leader with Vanhoucke. He was also 10 minutes down yesterday.

 

[DNP-Old]

Pogacar isolated after just 8 kilometers. Jaramillo wants to make this very hard.

 

[DNP-Old]

McNulty had a flat tire like 20 minutes ago and still hasn't returned.