56kh ITT

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May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Metabolol said:
You tell me, you are the one claiming the limit has been reached? Like I said doping is going to skew the picture and probably has *** but I don't claim to know exactly what is what.

The fact that many hide their doping behind bs and pseudo-science doesn't mean that natural progress isn't happening.

When riders are doping in training and recovery, never mind racing, how does one judge natural progression? Where does one start to then find the progression? How can you monitor it? When riders are doping as juniors, U23s where does one find the natural progression? There probably has been some progression but it would virtually impossible to find.

Pre EPO, GT riders showed at an early age, from 19 to 23 they could be easily seen performing in races from Tour L'avenir to their first GTs. Now we have 30+ winning their first GTs after spending years in the gruppetto if they were lucky to finish.

Looking for natural progression in a sport as dirty as cycling really is stretching it.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Metabolol said:
The_Cheech said:
Metabolol said:
Natural progression is a part of sports. Doping can *** it and skew the picture but it's still there.

There's nothing "natural" in what we saw today.

Everyone on NBC Universal was taken aback by what Dennis did. Everyone.

And these are folks who have a lot of experience in actual racing.

My take on it is that we just witnessed a new era of sports doping. And, as we all know, as long as the top dude isn't an American, a Brit or an Australian, it's all good.

I never meant to claim that he is natural but to say that the natural progression of cycling is at an end is nonsense.

to insinuate that natural progression can be faster than EPO era times, when they road carbon, aero frames and the technology of now has not advanced that much where bikes weigh less than air etc is really not understanding the sport and how much doping plays a part in the sport.

Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Benotti69 said:
Metabolol said:
The_Cheech said:
Metabolol said:
Natural progression is a part of sports. Doping can *** it and skew the picture but it's still there.

There's nothing "natural" in what we saw today.

Everyone on NBC Universal was taken aback by what Dennis did. Everyone.

And these are folks who have a lot of experience in actual racing.

My take on it is that we just witnessed a new era of sports doping. And, as we all know, as long as the top dude isn't an American, a Brit or an Australian, it's all good.

I never meant to claim that he is natural but to say that the natural progression of cycling is at an end is nonsense.

to insinuate that natural progression can be faster than EPO era times, when they road carbon, aero frames and the technology of now has not advanced that much where bikes weigh less than air etc is really not understanding the sport and how much doping plays a part in the sport.

Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.
 
May 26, 2015
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Walkman said:
Is it really that unbelievable?

Lemond did what, 54 km/h (?) some 20+ years ago and the consensus seems to be that he was clean. Would a 56 km/h performance on a shorter course really be a case of Edgar?

Can it no be about aerodynamics?

Any way you slice it, Dennis was aero as **** today!

And this is my problem to all of those that shout "cheater" to some particular riders/teams.

As long as some "hardcore" fans, that genuinely love the sport, keep calling out guys like Lance while praising cyclists like Eddy (some even dare to call him the best ever), Lemond (same speed at the end of the tour, 25 years ago) and company, all the "dope-free"/controlled (an environment where if you dope, you are actually cheating instead of playing catch up) dreams will be ignored, and rightfully so.

You/us (not you particularly, but the "fan") should:
a) Either inform yourself and act accordingly;
b) stfu and enjoy.

All of these guys train as much as their body allows them too. What makes someone a champion (nowadays) is pure genetic luck + superior doping + specialization + team strength + tactical acumen + season planning. What made a champion in the 60's (for example) was nothing more than superior doping. It was a stamina context, all day, all year.

If a guy like Lance was a cyclists in the 60's and 70's, with the same conditions as Merckx (compared to guys like Agostinho, that were far from true pros and could still podium the tour) + the psychopath attitude, he would wipe the floor with them on every single terrain, no matter what.

But instead, here we are: Saying that Cavendish is a joke, Merckx/Roger/Hinault/Coppi/Lemond are champions and Lance is a cheat. Meanwhile, the average cyclist today would win every single race against those "legends".

No wonder guys like Ricco must be destroyed from the inside-out. A few decades earlier, a different nationality, more convincing lies and we would be talking about him for decades as a great champion. Instead, it is what it is. Same for Pantani, VDB and others.

It's curious that the same twisted, sick and uninformed mentality can be applied to almost all sports: F1 drivers were all "better" decades ago (real men, after all. Who was the sick bastard that said: In my time there were 15 Michael Shumachers? Compare that crap with Roger De V. "demanding" the 1000X superior Boonen and Cancellara to go for the tour's GC); Eusebio, Di Stefano and so on are the best; etc. You get the point.

Always-on information to everybody made us analyze current events differently. What is "easy" to see, is easily discussed. There's more data/info/we saw the 00's. slightly less so for the 90's. Even less for the 80's and so on.

What we can't factually determine, we dream about.

It's a stupidity and/or ignorant-based problem, and can be applied to every area:

- Samsung sells an 8-core phone at 2GHz, Apple a 2 core phone at 1.4GHz. 8=4*2 and 2>1.4, so Apple rips off costumers and their phones are crap. Let's just ignore how all of these ARM-based processors have roots on the Apple-funded ARM, and how the 2 SoC are totally different, and evenly matched. Different cores.
- !6 MP cameras are better than 8 MP cameras. Yes, let's just ignore the fact that we can buy a 5000$ 12MP camera and there are 200$ phones with a 13 MP camera. Why? Because MP are only a small (irrelevant after a certain size) of what makes a good camera. Color? Software for processing? Zoom? Sensor-size? Pixel size? Speed? etc.
- A 700hp American muscle car is "better" than a 400Hp Porsche...
- Eddy has 525 victories..
- And so on.

How can we change this regarding cycling? It isn't easy. For starters, we should share knowledge. All rider data must be shared. Blood and urine stored so it can be analyzed 10 years from now on. Clean the record books, because they mean nothing as it stands and taint races instead of adding prestige. Open the game: Share to people why cycling is actually cleaner than most sports, and apply the same rules accordingly.

Meanwhile, every single good performance will be tainted. Might as well enjoy it. Nibali Vs Contador Vs Quintana Vs Tejay Vs Froome Vs Company: Why does it matter who wins as long as it is a good spectacle?

Is somebody seriously suggesting that Froome might be a less-worthy winner than, say, Nibali or Alberto? Are you guys for real? What if Sagan did a Candido Barbosa-impression and dropped them all on the Alps? Less worthy than Eddy, because only he is allowed to do it?

Thank god Manolo Saiz is coming up with a generation of clean champions, to compete against the Andy " do it" Rihs and Oleg "I don't care" Tinkoff.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.
 
May 13, 2015
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

Maybe or he just wants to stay involved in cycling and he learned that it's not worth it to call out dopers left and right.

As for the effects of pre 90s doping I have always been curious about a) how common blood bags where and b) how high does cycling dosages of AAS jack hematocrit? (bodybuilders can have 50/55+).
 
Re: Re:

Walkman said:
Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.

Yes wind is usually the biggest factor in times, even the local club TT would tell you that and I have said that here in the past, but then some of the self styled experts claimed that wind affects amateurs and pros differently somehow so it was incorrect to make such comparisons. IMO the shorter the TT the less the role of EPO/blood doping will have an effect. Just look at where the so called big dopers Froome/Contador/Valverde placed today, if it were a 60km TT, I bet the results would be a lot different with those guys closer to the top.
 
May 12, 2015
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
Feel free :)

Ironman, do I get the go-ahead to have at this guy without being banned?

You deleted the PM, was it anything important?

Aside from the expletives? No. I saw some of your posts and you seem like a pretty cool dude. I didn't know you barely spoke English.

I like cycling too much to let a Maasland tulip get the best of me.

THIS time I refuse to get banned. Doesn't matter how many weak individuals try to irritate the **** out of me.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
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Re: Re:

pmcg76 said:
Walkman said:
Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.

Yes wind is usually the biggest factor in times, even the local club TT would tell you that and I have said that here in the past, but then some of the self styled experts claimed that wind affects amateurs and pros differently somehow so it was incorrect to make such comparisons. IMO the shorter the TT the less the role of EPO/blood doping will have an effect. Just look at where the so called big dopers Froome/Contador/Valverde placed today, if it were a 60km TT, I bet the results would be a lot different with those guys closer to the top.

Top GC guys did what they need to do for a prologue. Since there is no 60km tt in this tour we wont know. They are all big dopers imo.

EPO and Blood doping is not where things are at right now as PEDs of choice. Micro doping for sure with epo, but other PEDs have come on stream that make weight loss with power gains the current game changer.

BMC have different tailwinds to others........ :)
 
Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
Feel free :)

Ironman, do I get the go-ahead to have at this guy without being banned?

You deleted the PM, was it anything important?

Aside from the expletives? No. I saw some of your posts and you seem like a pretty cool dude. I didn't know you barely spoke English.

I like cycling too much to let a Maasland tulip get the best of me.

THIS time I refuse to get banned. Doesn't matter how many weak individuals try to irritate the f*ck out of me.

No worries.

I'm not sure what this means? Poor English is an affliction for many English people.
 
May 12, 2015
345
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
pmcg76 said:
Walkman said:
Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.

Yes wind is usually the biggest factor in times, even the local club TT would tell you that and I have said that here in the past, but then some of the self styled experts claimed that wind affects amateurs and pros differently somehow so it was incorrect to make such comparisons. IMO the shorter the TT the less the role of EPO/blood doping will have an effect. Just look at where the so called big dopers Froome/Contador/Valverde placed today, if it were a 60km TT, I bet the results would be a lot different with those guys closer to the top.

Top GC guys did what they need to do for a prologue. Since there is no 60km tt in this tour we wont know. They are all big dopers imo.

EPO and Blood doping is not where things are at right now as PEDs of choice. Micro doping for sure with epo, but other PEDs have come on stream that make weight loss with power gains the current game changer.

BMC have different tailwinds to others........ :)

EPO has a half life of 4 hours. Meaning you can literally take EPO right before the stage, pee on the way to the finish, get tested and come out looking like a sobered up alcoholic.

I wonder how these guys structure its intake during the TdF.
 
May 12, 2015
345
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0
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
Feel free :)

Ironman, do I get the go-ahead to have at this guy without being banned?

You deleted the PM, was it anything important?

Aside from the expletives? No. I saw some of your posts and you seem like a pretty cool dude. I didn't know you barely spoke English.

I like cycling too much to let a Maasland tulip get the best of me.

THIS time I refuse to get banned. Doesn't matter how many weak individuals try to irritate the f*ck out of me.

No worries.

I'm not sure what this means? Poor English is an affliction for many English people.

You mean "for many English people too".
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
Benotti69 said:
pmcg76 said:
Walkman said:
Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.

Yes wind is usually the biggest factor in times, even the local club TT would tell you that and I have said that here in the past, but then some of the self styled experts claimed that wind affects amateurs and pros differently somehow so it was incorrect to make such comparisons. IMO the shorter the TT the less the role of EPO/blood doping will have an effect. Just look at where the so called big dopers Froome/Contador/Valverde placed today, if it were a 60km TT, I bet the results would be a lot different with those guys closer to the top.

Top GC guys did what they need to do for a prologue. Since there is no 60km tt in this tour we wont know. They are all big dopers imo.

EPO and Blood doping is not where things are at right now as PEDs of choice. Micro doping for sure with epo, but other PEDs have come on stream that make weight loss with power gains the current game changer.

BMC have different tailwinds to others........ :)

EPO has a half life of 4 hours. Meaning you can literally take EPO right before the stage, pee on the way to the finish, get tested and come out looking like a sobered up alcoholic.

I wonder how these guys structure its intake during the TdF.

pmcg76 will have you think they dont do such things........... :rolleyes:
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Metabolol said:
You tell me, you are the one claiming the limit has been reached? Like I said doping is going to skew the picture and probably has *** but I don't claim to know exactly what is what.

The fact that many hide their doping behind bs and pseudo-science doesn't mean that natural progress isn't happening.

When riders are doping in training and recovery, never mind racing, how does one judge natural progression? Where does one start to then find the progression? How can you monitor it? When riders are doping as juniors, U23s where does one find the natural progression? There probably has been some progression but it would virtually impossible to find.

Pre EPO, GT riders showed at an early age, from 19 to 23 they could be easily seen performing in races from Tour L'avenir to their first GTs. Now we have 30+ winning their first GTs after spending years in the gruppetto if they were lucky to finish.

The reasoning there is that they were clean(er) so they struggled against top fuel EPO riders. Once the top fuel dropped to 104 fuel those guys came back to the fore. Who knows, but that certainly makes sense.

You seems to be playing two sides a little bit by saying that you can't judge natural progression, but then you judge natural progression.
 
Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
King Boonen said:
The_Cheech said:
You mean "for many English people too".

No, that would imply I'm not English. I am.

Are you a Gaelic speaker?

Err... Nope. English, poor French and cafe Croatian.

Native English or an immigrant (or descendant of)?

Well, we're all descended from immigrants but about as far back as I know it's native.
 
Sep 5, 2011
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Re: Re:

The_Cheech said:
Benotti69 said:
pmcg76 said:
Walkman said:
Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMonds record speed lasted right throughout the worst years of the EPO era(90s) and has only been bettered by shorter TT performances, then its fair to say there is a lot of factors in play other than drugs. Were would the natural progression be from 1989 in relation to times from say 1963.

Benotti69 said:
Well considering LeMond had no problems with Indurain, Hinault, Fignon and modern dopers, I really don't think he was as white as was once thought. As for the pre EPO PEDs not having much effect, I think plenty will disagree with that.

Lots of factors can come into play, but doping is much bigger than others.

I'd say that the wind is by far the biggest factor when it comes to average speed in a TT. That Sastre has recorded the third fastest time trial ever speaks for itself.

Yes wind is usually the biggest factor in times, even the local club TT would tell you that and I have said that here in the past, but then some of the self styled experts claimed that wind affects amateurs and pros differently somehow so it was incorrect to make such comparisons. IMO the shorter the TT the less the role of EPO/blood doping will have an effect. Just look at where the so called big dopers Froome/Contador/Valverde placed today, if it were a 60km TT, I bet the results would be a lot different with those guys closer to the top.

Top GC guys did what they need to do for a prologue. Since there is no 60km tt in this tour we wont know. They are all big dopers imo.

EPO and Blood doping is not where things are at right now as PEDs of choice. Micro doping for sure with epo, but other PEDs have come on stream that make weight loss with power gains the current game changer.

BMC have different tailwinds to others........ :)

EPO has a half life of 4 hours. Meaning you can literally take EPO right before the stage, pee on the way to the finish, get tested and come out looking like a sobered up alcoholic.

I wonder how these guys structure its intake during the TdF.

Look at a chart of plasma concentration of a drug that follows the typical half life model of elimination. Even if only a fraction of a half life has passed since taking a drug, it could still mean much more has been eliminated than what gets eliminated between the 4th and 5th half lives for example, because there is proportionally much more of the drug to eliminate at first.
 
Re:

Merckx index said:
Anyone able to estimate RD's frontal area?
Yes, but perhaps discuss elsewhere where fewer logical fallacies abound?

I estimate his track CdA from the hour record was ~0.20 - 0.21m^2. Typically add a little for road TT bike.

2250-2350W/m^2 would attain 55.4km/h on flat roads on a warm day with still air, nice smooth roads and good tyres.

At CdA of 0.20, that's ~460W
0.21m^2 =~ 480W
0.22m^2 =~ 500W
0.23m^2 =~ 520W

But for power estimates from outdoor TTs, even the slightest wind = large error bars which I've not included here.

e.g.:
i. winds affect CdA, often cross wind drops CdA somewhat
ii. for straight head/tailwind, even an imperceptible +/-0.3m/s wind* would result in a power estimate error of ~ +/- 20W

* that's not noticeable by feel, smoke still rises vertically, yet still has a major impact on power demand.
 
Jun 28, 2014
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He's playing second fiddle to TjVG, which would implicate both of them in the event that either is on something. This is the most *** attempt at calling out a rider for being on the "stuff" since it's an incredibly short ITT that was bested by the recently former hour record holder in one of the windoest areas in the world for a grand tour to reasonably start.
 
BTW the power differential for the same rider and conditions between riding at 55.446km/h and 56.0km/h is ~14-15W. It's a substantial difference.

To go 60km/h would require a further 112W over the 56km/h power demand.