Yes. He went left on the roundabout close to the finish. Then got hesitated and rode straight into a pillar, respectively tangled himself up in an iron string connecting pillars and turned a somersault onto his head.
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Ok, DK has been on an extended visit and I haven't been around much or posted in a long time but the narrative that Remco had a subpar TT, is in bad form, and would have beaten Kung by more got me to look up the actual results and post.
Here are the head to head TT results between Kung and Remco before Suisse:
- '22 Algarve, 32.2km - Remco 1st, Kung 2nd, Remco gains :58 total and 1.8 secs/km
- '21 Chrono des Nations , 44.5km - Kung 1st, Remco 5th, Kung gains 1:22 total and 1.84 secs/km
- '21 World Championships, 43.3 km - Remco 3rd, Kung 5th, Remco gains :23 total and .53 secs/km
- '21 European Championships, 22.4km - Kung 1st, Remco 3rd, Kung gains :15 total and .67 sec/km
- '21 Benelux Tour, 11.1km - Kung 3rd, Remco 18th Kung gains :19 total and 1.71 secs/km
- '21 Olympics, 44.2km - Kung 4th, Remco 9th, Kung gains 1:13 and 1.65 secs/km
- '20 Algarve, 20.3km - Remco 1st, Kung 3rd, Remco gains :19 and .94 secs/km
- '19 World Championships, 54km - Remco 2nd, Kung 10th, Remco gains 1:38 and 1.81 secs/km
- '19 European Championships, 22.4km - Remco 1st, Kung 4th, Remco gains :21 total and .94 secs/km
- '19 Romandie, 16.9km - Kung 6th, Remco 15th, Kung gains :31 total and 1.83 secs/km
- '19 Romandie prologue, 3.9 km - Kung 7th, Remco 57th, Kung gains :09 total and 2.31 secs/km
Remco had won 5 and averaged 1.27 secs/km gained over Kung in those wins
And today:
- '22 Suisse, 25.6km, Remco 1st, Kung 3rd, Remco gains :11 total and .43 secs/km
Sure, you can go through and invalidate or make excuses for individual performances based on the point you want to prove but the narrative that Remco generally wins by more just doesn't seem to be based in reality. Certainly the idea that Remco wins by minutes and Kung wins by a few seconds thing isn't true since Remco has only won by more than a minute once and Kung actually puts more time per km into Remco in his wins on average.
Of course neither would have been super fresh after going 100% in the mountains so it doesn't surprise me that Thomas was right there with them given his pedigree. I think the most likely situation is just what Remco said - he just had an off day on stage 5 but his form is fine.
Yes yes, his form is so fine that he can't climb at 5w/kg anymore. Great form.
Remco did Chrono des Nations because it was a lucrative deal for him, it was only decided less than a week before the start after his season had already ended. His entire 2021 season has been riddled by erratic form. In Benelux he was sick and DNS the next day. In Romandie he crashed. But hey, excuses, right.
Thank you for doing the research. I am a fan of data/fact-based discussion, and it is clear that, in this case, perception among some does not match reality. Of course no one is arguing that Remco climbed at his best in TdS, but I was pretty shocked to see he won and then read the narrative that he was way off his normal TT form. GT and Kung are proven top level ITTers in excellent form.
What about Küng? Was he at the absolute peak of his shape every time Remco beat him?
That being said, I don't necessarily think this was Remco's very best TT performance, either. But there is more than just one side to the story.
I think that it’s interesting that all 3 TTs where Kung/Evenepoel were the clear stage favourites have been won by Remco (20 and 22 Algarve, 22 Suisse).
I've just warmed up to Remco this year, I always knew he's an extraordinarily exciting rider, but the hype used to turn me away from him. This year I thought I would just absorb it because he's way too exciting, but...before long.....now I think I'll stop reading anything about him from his fans in this forum. It gives me the impression that cycling world revolves around him and he is the only rider with problems and dimensions, and every fact that question it will incite some biting responses. I know there are also trollings and blatant attacks, but I think there are also lots of legit and honest doubts or criticisms that didn't really warrant the defensive responses.
He's really in old Contador and Sky level when it comes to this kind of stuffs in this forum. He's a wonderful addition to the sport, and he won't stop making me more excited about a race, I also want to know more about him, but this knightly loyalty is too much for me.
He's really in old Contador and Sky level when it comes to this kind of stuffs in this forum. He's a wonderful addition to the sport, and he won't stop making me more excited about a race, I also want to know more about him, but this knightly loyalty is too much for me.
Of course there is more than one side to each story. Let's take for example Küngs ECC title. He was behind Evenepoel and Ganna at the intermediate. He did a remarkable second part... turns out he took back many seconds because he had Cavagna + car ahead of him in that section. Anyway, the funny thing is i made my first few posts jokingly (though i stand by the core premise of them, that an on-form Evenepoel will beat an on-form Küng more often and more easily than the other way around) but it kind of started living a life of it's own. And look, out of the 12 TT they started, Evenepoel won 4, Küng won 2. But yes, i do think crashes, sickness and motopacing should be taken into account, but hey, that's just me.
Data speaks louder than words. Great job gathering the facts. Props!
No scoop here: the study confirms what we already knew: both Remco and Kung belong to the top-5 of all ITT riders in the World: on a good day, they are lethal.
Remco's ITT wasn't his best, but it wasn't bad at all. King Kung wasn't 100% either: they both had been taken away from their aquarium and brought to the mountains for two days. Geraint was supposed to be fresher and whack them. Nothing to say about the results.
Remco Evenepoel is in my top-10 favorite riders, a generational talent, but what he will turn into is a mystery to me: I don't see a plan, I see Sagan.
What is the plan for Remco? Cancellara with bene-frites? Tour de France legend like Raymond Evenepoulidor? What is the plan?
Reading comments about comparisons and not being there in the 80's or before, check Fons De Wolf. A great champion. He was The New Merckx.
Change the thread name please.
Big Doopie
BANNED
That's like the fact that in the 2019TDF André Greipel was a better GC rider than Thibaut Pinot.
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Evenepoel never overtook a rider in any TT he did?
Anyway, I also think it depends on the course and especially the wind conditions. In a real tailwind power course, Küng should be closer if not better than Remco. In headwind, Evenepoel's much lower CdA would be difficult for Küng to live with. As seen yesterday where the last part included a headwind section.
By the way, Küng started behind Jungels yesterday and was not close to overtaking him, whereas Remco did overtake Andreas Kron. I guess that makes Remco's performance even worse
It really is. We are looking at the facts now, remember. So if you crash out, your GC result is void. Hence Greipel was a better GC rider than Pinot. Evenepoel getting sick doesn't show up in the above ''facts'' either. The above facts also include a prologue, which is a niche subbranch of a TT, and has the timeloss (9s) converted to s/km to make it look relevant, lol.
Can't have it both ways. Either we look at the numbers, or we look at the achievement in light of the context.
Here are some other facts. Of the 12 times both TT specialists faced off, Evenepoel won 4 times, Küng won 2 times.
Of the 19 Men's Elite TT's Evenepoel did (excluding TTT, prologue or NC's), he won 7. That's 37%
Of the 58 Men's Elite TT's Küng did (excluding TTT, prologue or NC's), he won 10. That's 17%
Out of 7 WCC ITT ME, Küng managed 1 bronze medal.
Out of 2 WCC ITT ME, Evenepoel managed 1 silver and 1 bronze medal.
By the way, Küng started behind Jungels yesterday and was not close to overtaking him, whereas Remco did overtake Andreas Kron. I guess that makes Remco's performance even worse
Absolutely. There is a very high probability he would not have won the TT if he didn't get some draft from riders he overtook. The difference was only 3s. Thomas was also not able to benefit from overtaking a slower rider. You can laugh with this, but that's an actual fact. Cavagna handed Küng the win in the ECC last year. Tusveld handed Ganna the win in Tirreno. That stuff simply matters.
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Does it really give you eight seconds, though? I highly doubt that. 3 seconds maybe, not 8 (which was his winning margin in the ECC).
Also, in the TT discipline it absolutely makes sense to include all results and not just count wins. It's not like saying Froome beat a bunch of GC riders on a flat stage because he coincidentally rolled over the line in front of them in the middle of the pack. But of course you know this, so I don't know why you discount all their other head-to-head results.
Finally, Küng was 5th overall in the Tour de Suisse GC. What a mad result. The guy has really taken a step up overall this year, and it's not unlikely that he was a little below his best yesterday after such a hard week. I find it especially impressive considering how he usually thrives in cold weather and rain, and then to do this in the hottest imaginable week in Switzerland. Chapeau (the latter part is not really a part of this discussion but just a general comment).
Thomas has a Tour win, Roglic doesn't. Winning three Vuelta's is great but he hasn't won a Giro or Tour yet and he's in his peak years already. Thomas not the rider he was a few years ago. Nobody will remember Valverde's multiple top 10s in grand Tours when the only GT he won was a Vuelta with one Tour podium. When records are mentioned the real weight is with the wins. Ironically it was Pogacar's first podium behind Roglic at a young age which indicated what a talent he could be. while Roglic didn't even attempt a GT until he was 26. If Pogacar retains his same level or even improves a little, which is possible, Roglic is going to need luck to win a Tour. I'd like to see Roglic do the Giro next season and he could still do the Vuelta as well. Depending on how the Tour pans out maybe he will. Jumbo have enough depth now to cover both races and be competitive and Hindley will possibly ride the Tour next season. Like to see Pinot go back to the Giro next season as well. With Bernal's career up in the air, Carapaz will probably do the Tour next season.
To make it look relevant? Oh, c'mon. You know that's not the case. All of the results included secs/km because that's the only way to look at it since 30 secs gained over 10k isn't the same as 30 secs gained over 50k. I actually thought about leaving it out because I agree that it's almost like a different discipline but I decided to leave it in because the short length meant it really had no influence on the totals and I also didn't want to pick and choose which results to use.
Remco crashed in Romandie? I found the forum pages, the cyclingnews article about the TT, and a QS report about Remco's and Knox's TT performances that day and I don't see a crash mentioned in any of them.
Good post. He's certainly rubbed me the wrong way in the past and both his fanboys and haters can be overzealous at times but he certainly provides entertainment which is what we want. The Vuelta thread will likely be both fun and irritating, I'm sure. As another poster mentioned he seems to have matured a bit so hopefully that continues because he really is a special talent whether he turns out to be a top GT guy or not.
Thomas, when all is said and done, will be seen as a very, very good and multitalented rider whose undoing was crashes and bad luck. He seems like a great guy to have a beer with, and maybe lacked that 2% of killer instinct that might have padded his palmares a bit. His Tour win was no fluke, in any event. But at Suisse he was at his best -- climbing with the top group, if not winning, and saving his bullets for a meaningful TT. That is a winning formula for any stage race, provided there are enough TT kms.
Pinot should just chill out in the first week of Grad Tours and come out to play later hunting Queen stages and KOM jerseys. He cant live with the Slovenians and needs every tiny element to go his way to podium which no longer feels worth the stresses and heartache. Free him up to just be an entertaining elite climber.
Well, either take it from me or look harder. He crashed 4 times during the stages, one time was right before the start of the prologue when he hit his front wheel on a big electric cable.
You also didn't find info of him being sick in Benelux and dropping out the next day?
But you are right ofcourse. The "facts" are what they are. And i probably should have made a different joke about how Küng is not in the same league as him as a TTer. In my defense, i did not include races where he crashed, got sick, was in the break the entire day before, just started his pro career... I was indeed thinking more about the races where they both were healthy and motivated.
I'm not discounting their head to heads by giving additional facts. The head to heads i would personally discount have nothing to do with who won or not. But since we are only looking at ''facts'' and circumstances and context are ignored... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see i was not talking about certain TT's considering i personally do not value them as a reference given circumstances and context. So to me they hold no value in a comparison to judge both riders. But that doesn't mean they didn't take place and show up as factual data. Just like Greipel finishing ahead of Pinot in the 2019TDF GC. It's meaningless, but they show up as fact.
I have created an entire topic about how much draft can help. Not only can you go faster, you can also recover while going faster. That means you can still benefit from it even after the drafting process has ended. But whether you can gain 3 or 8 seconds, or more, will greatly depend on the circuit and the speed of the rider ahead of you. Ganna in Tirreno had the benefit to overtake Tusveld on a 4k straight road. On the ECC, Küng overtook Cavagna who himself was riding for a top 10 spot. The faster your minute man, the longer the overtaking process will take, the more you will benefit from riding behind him. Not only is his speed higher, you get to sit in his draft longer. If you have a fast guy in front of you on a straight road you hit the jackpot.
The opposite can also be true, a slow guy on a technical parcours will give you very little benefit, and could even get in the way and cost you a few seconds in some tight corners.
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Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
Do you really not believe that there is a distinction to be drawn between a set of abilities and a result?
You clearly are a smart guy and your takes are generally logically sound, but surely you recognize the inherent bias in only introducing context with select results that fit a narrative. This is why, as I'm sure you know, statisticians look at data in aggregate rather that one piece at a time. Aggregated data generally tells the story more clearly than individual data points, although analysis of data points can identify anomalies to toss out and explanations for the larger trend. For example, one analysis might show that, in general, it is difficult to differentiate between Kung and Remco because they are 6-6 head-to-head. Another might show that Remco is prone to crashes. Another might show that Remco has a higher win rate. Another might show that given a certain set of circumstances (e.g., Given that Remco is healthy, in top form, doesn't crash, and has a rabbit to crash), he is likely to win. But merge the last with the first without applying that analysis to all data points introduces bias and nullifies the result. But we all understand you passion I think.
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