86th Tour de Suisse (2.UWT) // June 11th - 18th 2023

[Nick2413]

They took down footage of yesterday’s stage from GCN and only show a few seconds of the descent in highlights now.

 

[Red Rick]

To me it seems like rider error simply seems the most likely explanation, that doesnt make it any less tragic

 

[OlavEH]

I also remember a near-unanimous consensus on downhill sprint finishes. Maybe someone can explain to me what the difference is exactly. Speeds exceeding 80kmh, long straight and wide road. Riders take the risks themeselves. Why blame organizers? Why change anything or why forbid such finishes? You can't advocate against downhill sprint finishes, and argue nothing should be done about descends towards a finishline, with a straight face.

A downhill sprint finish will usually mean a group of at least a moderate size sprinting in high speed within a small space. On a descent fisnish the riders will usually be much more scattered and there would be much more room between each rider. So I can't really see that it is the same thing.

 

[Nick2413]

There is a picture on the police website, I assume the one on the right is Gino's line - https://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/verwaltung/djsg/kapo/aktuelles/medien/2023/Seiten/202306161.aspx

View: https://youtu.be/BkBNTrDN0tw


The corner in question is at 3:20 of this video fwiw, they’re only going 65kph in the video though.

 

[OlavEH]

To me it seems like rider error simply seems the most likely explanation, that doesnt make it any less tragic

This is just before the bend where Mäder went off the road.

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The weather as good, the tarmac was dry and the road is wide. The only risky aspect I can see is that there is no visibilty around the bend and that it could be dangerous if the rider doesn't know the route, miscalculates and enter the bend with too high speed. But I don't think the organizers is too much to blame in this case.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

To me it seems like rider error simply seems the most likely explanation, that doesnt make it any less tragic

This goes for nearly all accidents. And yet two riders less than 10 minutes apart, crashed in the exact same corner.

A downhill sprint finish will usually mean a group of at least a moderate size sprinting in high speed within a small space. On a descent fisnish the riders will usually be much more scattered and there would be much more room between each rider. So I can't really see that it is the same thing.

So you think you can use the entire width of the road going into a corner at 100kmh going downhill? Send me a video of you doing that after you tried.
The freedom and margin you have going into a corner at that speed, might even be narrower than the space you get going towards a straight finish in a sprint. There is only one ideal line, and not being on that line means you need to hit the brakes. If the rider in front of you makes a strange move, you also go flying.

 

[OlavEH]

So you think you can use the entire width of the road at 100kmh going downhill? Send me a video of you doing that after you tried.
The freedom and margin you have going into a corner at that speed, might even be narrower than the space you get going towards a straight finish in a sprint. There is only one ideal line, and not being on that line means you need to hit the brakes.

The freedom is still bigger than in a mass sprint where you have riders on all sides. It is probably more dangerous with a normal mass sprint going in 60 km/h than a descent finish like yesterday.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The freedom is still bigger than in a mass sprint where you have riders on all sides.

No it isn't. If you go into a corner downhill at that speed you don't get to decide to be 50cm more to your left or right, without adjusting your speed. Good luck doing that at 100kmh. It's not because there is no rider there, that you can move there or use that space.

 

[spalco]

View: https://youtu.be/BkBNTrDN0tw


The corner in question is at 3:20 of this video fwiw, they’re only going 65kph in the video though.

That doesn't look that awfully dangerous, but accidents often happen at non-obvious places, and any crash can be dangerous on a bicycle.

 

[Boehmand]

Price-Pejtersen getting consoled today by Skjelmose and Kron:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669685970831015936

View: https://twitter.com/JakobsenSanne/status/1669685970831015936?s=20

 

[Ilmaestro99]

The corner is dangerous when you are going 100kph and taking a racing line. Especially yesterday with a tailwind. Huge difference to riding with traffic at slow 60kph like all amateurs should do.

You come from 3km of relatively straight descending from the summit, very fast into a blind corner with an early apex and long exit. At the end of the corner there is a straight drop to a ravine. On a corner like that if you make a mistake in your line selection its almost impossible to correct if you haven't slowed sufficiently. People racing won't have slowed. Racing on open road I always took the maximum speed I was comfortable with, even when I was not competing for win. Someone like gino mader was very comfortable descending fast.

You can't expect every riders to know the course and you can't expect riders who are racing in a group, who have riders before and behind them, who are trying to make a timecut, who have 170bpm heartrate in 2100m altitude, to slow to 60kph to take the corner because they can see through the mountain that there is a ravine on the other side.

 

[titan31]

That doesn't look that awfully dangerous, but accidents often happen at non-obvious places, and any crash can be dangerous on a bicycle.

Tbf we don't actually know if it was a clear road ahead of him. We know Sheffield went off before him ah the same place so could easily have been cars parked at the side of the road attending to him which would have been dangerous there, and would give Mader less time to adjust

 

[Red Rick]

I think riders just arent that used to thesr speeds either. Which is why they should be more cautious when they cant see the road

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Tbf we don't actually know if it was a clear road ahead of him. We know Sheffield went off before him ah the same place so could easily have been cars parked at the side of the road attending to him which would have been dangerous there, and would give Mader less time to adjust

I don’t know what to think about cars parked in the corner. I think if there were cars parked because the Sheffield crash in the corner itself he would see them and slowed down before the corner?

I mean the parked cars should probably be parked after where Sheffield and Mader left the road?

 

[staubsauger]

If the second red line was Mäders there're 2 options only.

Either Mäder hit that corner with way to much speed and straightly shoot out of it like a Carrera car.

Or there was a parked Ineos team car and the only way to avoid it with the power coming into that section was to steer past it on the right.

Frankly, why would Mäder a guy from Switzerland who certainly has descended Albulapass before do the first?

Hate to say it, but option 2 sounds more logical to me currently.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I don’t know what to think about cars parked in the corner. I think if there were cars parked because the Sheffield crash in the corner itself he would see them and slowed down before the corner?

I mean the parked cars should probably be parked after where Sheffield and Mader left the road?

We'll probably learn more about this once the police investigation has concluded, but there was a roadside parking area less than 50 metres after where Sheffield and Mäder went off the road, I would guess that is where they would have parked. Cannot imagine a DS leaving their car parked on the road in the middle of a curve on a descent unless they had no choice.

 

[Aimar16]

I'm sorry but I cannot believe anyone who watched the race yesterday didn't think that descent looked dangerous. I really don't want to argue about the pros and cons of downhill finishes right now, that's not a discussion to be held today, but whenever riders are able to reach 100kph on a descent with blind corners, the risk goes up dramatically.

There was only one blind corner, but unfortunately it was the worst place to leave the road. In motorsport, tragedies are followed by the biggest safety improvements, we'll see how much the UCI has learned from this. I think a warning signal would have been enough to avoid yesterday's tragedy.

But if the UCI wants to improve safety and make the finish on the descent on some stages. It could also be easily solved if they put a speed checker radar before a dangerous corner. Tell the riders at the start of the stage that you have to slow down to 60km/h before that corner, if you exceed that you will get a time penalty. The racing is maintained because everyone has to slow down, but it also makes the race safer.

 

[proffate]

If the second red line was Mäders there're 2 options only.

Either Mäder hit that corner with way to much speed and straightly shoot out of it like a Carrera car.

Or there was a parked Ineos team car and the only way to avoid it with the power coming into that section was to steer past it on the right.

Frankly, why would Mäder a guy from Switzerland who certainly has descended Albulapass before do the first?

Hate to say it, but option 2 sounds more logical to me currently.

I thought the same. He could have a flat front tire or his sweaty hand slipped off the bar. But the obstacle explanation is also a decent theory.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

But if anything, at the very least Mäder is spared being called bambi, in case he might have taken a bit less risks next time had he ever been granted that luxury. I guess that's something.

It takes a special kind of sick to use Mäder's death to whine a bit more about "Remco-hating"

 

[spalco]

I think riders just arent that used to thesr speeds either. Which is why they should be more cautious when they cant see the road

Bicycles imo just aren't safe at 90 km/h, with the tiny tires, flimsy (compared to motorcycles) materials, narrow forks etc. Going that speed even on a high tech road bike is madness to me.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

We'll probably learn more about this once the police investigation has concluded, but there was a roadside parking area less than 50 metres after where Sheffield and Mäder went off the road, I would guess that is where they would have parked. Cannot imagine a DS leaving their car parked on the road in the middle of a curve on a descent unless they had no choice.

Yes I think the picture of the two break tracks in the bottom of the Police article shows that it wasn’t any space to park in the side of the road in a position that would make “go right off a parked car” an option?

(But seems to be space at the right of the road before the point where they both went out, but not sure if that would affect the line of the rider)

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I also recall another rider mentioning seeing 'two bikes' at the side of the road as he came past just after they crashed, if there was a car forcing people to take evasive action at that point I'm pretty sure it would have come in for a lot of scrutiny already.

Anyway, hesitant to draw too many conclusions about such an emotive issue with limited information, such a difficult day.

 

[hrotha]

You can't really ask people that participate in racing to go slower, cause the all point of it is to go as fast as possible.

They routinely do exactly that when they put a guy waving a flag at danger spots. That's what the conversation should be focusing on if you ask me - ways to better mark potentially dangerous turns in descents, and realistic safety measures for particularly dangerous ravines and cliffs. Banning downhill finishes out of some misguided safety concerns would be bad and hypocritical.

 

[proffate]

But if the UCI wants to improve safety and make the finish on the descent on some stages. It could also be easily solved if they put a speed checker radar before a dangerous corner. Tell the riders at the start of the stage that you have to slow down to 60km/h before that corner, if you exceed that you will get a time penalty. The racing is maintained because everyone has to slow down, but it also makes the race safer.

What is the point of a descent finish then? Might as well finish on top.

The reality is that this could happen just as easily in the middle of a stage. Some rider who gets dropped on a climb in the middle of a stage will be racing to catch on again.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Bicycles imo just aren't safe at 90 km/h, with the tiny tires, flimsy (compared to motorcycles) materials, narrow forks etc. Going that speed even on a high tech road bike is madness to me.

I'll never know how these guys do it. 65 km/h is my limit where my self-preservation kicks in and forces me to go no faster.