86th Tour de Suisse (2.UWT) // June 11th - 18th 2023

[Devil's Elbow]

did you really expected alternative route with all the necessary closures and approvals and safety measures in course of few hours? there was no other realistic way to do this in such short notice other than just use the rest of the stage prepared/finalized long time ago a ready to go.

The area they can't go through had been on alert for five weeks so there was no short notice, this plan B (just like the one for yesterday, which wasn't actually needed) was concocted well before the road was actually closed this night.

 

[Bolder]

Any updates on Mäder? (or Sheffield). I just hate when a rider is badly hurt; I know the danger is "part of the sport" but it's such a downer when crashes lead to serious injuries.

On the larger question of dangerous descents etc ... it's maybe a bit facile to say it, but no descent is too dangerous to ride. To race flat out? Of course. But riders have to balance the risk and reward. Sometimes the balance tips too far toward the risk side of the equation. I wouldn't want to see descending minimized as a skill. Salvodelli was the first legendary descender I was aware of and it was just incredible to see riders like Pidcock, Alaf, even little Bardet who can just flow down a mountain. Whereas I pucker up when I see a bunch of hairpins ahead of me...

 

[Jagartrott]

Remco crying about downhill finishes in general has big Schleck energy, it has to be said.

Is this necessary? One guy is fighting for his life in hospital as we speak after a crash on this descent, and Evenepoel himself was a couple of mm away from being paralysed for life after a crash in a notoriously dangerous descent. I think that what is says is not 'crying', it is relatively understandable. Also if you do not agree (I actually do not, at least not fully), you could stay classy.

 

[Rackham]

Evenepoel's problem is he's not very good at descending, at least not yet anyway. There are better riders than him on descents & even yesterday he lost time going downhill which he hadn't lost going uphill.

So of course when he comes out publicly & criticizes a descent, some people really could interpret that as lobbying for changes which suit him.

I'm not passing judgement either way, I'm just saying it as it is.

 

[Bolder]

Is this necessary? One guy is fighting for his life in hospital as we speak after a crash on this descent, and Evenepoel himself was a couple of mm away from being paralysed for life after a crash in a notoriously dangerous descent. I think that what is says is not 'crying', it is relatively understandable. Also if you do not agree (I actually do not, at least not fully), you could stay classy.

I agree. I hate when the Remco haters say he's "crying" or "whining." He's just super competitive, says stuff in the heat of the moment that maybe he'd say a little more carefully if you sat him down by the side of a pool with a beer. But I love that he cares, that he's engaged. Much better than riders who say nothing or spout platitudes. He thinks -- probably given his history -- that more safety measures should be taken (I don't happen to agree). So be it. But I would not characterize it as whining -- that's for Cav!

 

[hrotha]

Personally I think it's super gross to campaign against "technical descents" while a colleague is fighting for his life after crashing in a non-technical descent, but it's what I've come to expect from Hansen

 

[Mayomaniac]

I agree. I hate when the Remco haters say he's "crying" or "whining." He's just super competitive, says stuff in the heat of the moment that maybe he'd say a little more carefully if you sat him down by the side of a pool with a beer. But I love that he cares, that he's engaged. Much better than riders who say nothing or spout platitudes. He thinks -- probably given his history -- that more safety measures should be taken (I don't happen to agree). So be it. But I would not characterize it as whining -- that's for Cav!

I mean, there's a difference between making a statement on social media afterwards and giving an interview in the heat of the moment (and your statement usually getting taken out of context, as it often happens with Remco interviews). I think nobody has anything against having more signaling before dangerous/blind corners (signs or race marshalls) to minimize risks.

 

[Boes]

I'm not passing judgement either way, I'm just saying it as it is.

Lol
offcourse you are passing judgement.

Haters using the near death of Mäder to bash on riders, it disgusts me.

 

[Berniece]

Evenepoel's problem is he's not very good at descending, at least not yet anyway. There are better riders than him on descents & even yesterday he lost time going downhill which he hadn't lost going uphill.

So of course when he comes out publicly & criticizes a descent, some people really could interpret that as lobbying for changes which suit him.

I'm not passing judgement either way, I'm just saying it as it is.

I think it's purely that he's a bit afraid. The way he can handle a TT bike when he is prepared says enough about his bike handling skills. He's probably just more cautious due to his Lombardia crash.

 

[Red Rick]

Lets all hijack this tragic incident to win an argument

 

[Rackham]

Lol
offcourse you are passing judgement.

Haters using the near death of Mäder to bash on riders, it disgusts me.

It cuts both ways, i.e. it's also easy to say people are using this incident for political gain against descents in general. That's the point.

I think everyone in the peloton should probably refrain from passing judgement on the incident considering we don't even actually know how it happened. We know where he crashed, but not why.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Would probably be a good idea to start a thread for Gino..

 

[SafeBet]

The lack of any update is really starting to worry me.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The area they can't go through had been on alert for five weeks so there was no short notice, this plan B (just like the one for yesterday, which wasn't actually needed) was concocted well before the road was actually closed this night.

The traffic in that area already has to use alternative roads because of the rockslide, so also closing them because of the race would probably not be very popular in the region and I can see why local authorities would be against it.

 

[Samamba]

The lack of any update is really starting to worry me.

I also find it pretty weird that we still haven't heard anything basically.

 

[peterfin]

I mean, there's a difference between making a statement on social media afterwards and giving an interview in the heat of the moment (and your statement usually getting taken out of context, as it often happens with Remco interviews). I think nobody has anything against having more signaling before dangerous/blind corners (signs or race marshalls) to minimize risks.

I wonder why his statement makes so much drama here? Remco has the right to say this regardless of other opinions. Personally I think he makes a good point here. The roads may be fine but the high speed reduces the margin for error and increase the risks involved, especially in a final when the focus of the tired riders is completely on finishing asap. It's like driving on the high ways. You know you can do 160 km/h safely if you keep distance but do it after a long, tiring day and you have a significant chance ending up in the casualty statistics.

 

[Rackham]

I also find it pretty weird that we still haven't heard anything basically.

I don't even know how we should interpret this silence.

For example the Milan Vader incident last year was frustrating as hell. We barely got any updates at all after it was revealed he was critical, stable & in a coma.

 

[Volderke]

The context of this descent, that is often forgotten, is that the stage race lead / final result was on the line.

A descent is not worth mentioning if there is another climb, or if the leaders in the race go over the top together.

In this case, taking risks in the descent was much more forced: if you're not taking those risks, you're losing seconds you can't win back on the flat or next climb, and the race dynamics forced everyone behind Ayuso to go full gas.

So when people are referring to 'this climb has been used before', well, that's not enough to compare.

Just an observation. I'm not calling for anything, but the circumstances were a (luckily rare) combination of very high-speed descent (so crashing is life-threatening), in combination with most of the top 5 strung out, meaning that everyone was taking risks that are significantly larger than (probably) anything would be willing to do in a whole season.

 

[Red Rick]

The context of this descent, that is often forgotten, is that the stage race lead / final result was on the line.

A descent is not worth mentioning if there is another climb, or if the leaders in the race go over the top together.

In this case, taking risks in the descent was much more forced: if you're not taking those risks, you're losing seconds you can't win back on the flat or next climb, and the race dynamics forced everyone behind Ayuso to go full gas.

So when people are referring to 'this climb has been used before', well, that's not enough to compare.

Just an observation. I'm not calling for anything, but the circumstances were a (luckily rare) combination of very high-speed descent (so crashing is life-threatening), in combination with most of the top 5 strung out, meaning that everyone was taking risks that are significantly larger than (probably) anything would be willing to do in a whole season.

Nothing was on the line for Mader

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Getting close to 24hrs since Mäder‘s crash, and no news yet… Strange. Of course everyone‘s waiting for encouraging news.

Poor Pedro Horillo crashed and fell into a ravine at 2009 Giro, riding for Rabobank… It was steeper than yesterday‘s ravine, and he fell just as far. Trees interrupted his fall. Horillo survived, but never rode a professional race afterwards. He can live quite a normal life, but suffered permanent damage to his body, AFAIK…

I hope Mäder did not fall down this 3m vertical wall just above the water.

I hope he recovers, like for example Jakobsen.

Albula east ramp down to La Punt has even been raced in the wet before, it‘s not extremely dangerous, but at some places, crashing is forbidden, as we saw yesterday.

Ayuso now is the king of Swiss descents: stage win after downhill in Romandie ITT, stage win after downhill in TdS queen stage.

 

[dazaau]

Such terrible news about Gino. I hope he will be relatively ok given how terrible the crash sounds

As for the race, Ayuso looked amazing, but I can't for the life of me understand why he soft pedaled the final push to the line and celebrated early while losing precious GC seconds. Bizarre.

 

[Rob5091]

Having the finish line at the base of, or near to the base of , a descent is always going to be the most dangerous.

 

[Volderke]

Nothing was on the line for Mader

I knew this was coming.
You easily forget that, when in a race, you are mentally committed to either follow the wheel in front or, when you are leading, to not be responsible for slowing down riders behind you by being too cautious. While probably no one close to Mader was having any stake into the GC, e.g. Sheffield rode in a GC group and was thus committed to go for it (and get a result, some UCI points,... at the line).

 

[Riek s]

The context of this descent, that is often forgotten, is that the stage race lead / final result was on the line.

A descent is not worth mentioning if there is another climb, or if the leaders in the race go over the top together.

In this case, taking risks in the descent was much more forced: if you're not taking those risks, you're losing seconds you can't win back on the flat or next climb, and the race dynamics forced everyone behind Ayuso to go full gas.

So when people are referring to 'this climb has been used before', well, that's not enough to compare.

Just an observation. I'm not calling for anything, but the circumstances were a (luckily rare) combination of very high-speed descent (so crashing is life-threatening), in combination with most of the top 5 strung out, meaning that everyone was taking risks that are significantly larger than (probably) anything would be willing to do in a whole season.

True (Remco is also not calling for anything, he just stated is was a bad decision).

and the last part is also what Remco said: "As riders, we should also think about the risks we take going down a mountain"

He is clearly pointing to the riders as well for taking unneeded risks. Its every riders choice of course. (Some don't mind giving in time to be safe). Thats the responsability of the riders themselves.

 

[jonas334455]

Report on blick.ch says that Mäder is on intenisve care and stable. His father is there and the team says they're waiting for the doctors to coummunicate the extent of his injuries.
TdS talked with the family about cancelling the stage but decided against.

This descend was often used in the Tds without any problems.