86th Tour de Suisse (2.UWT) // June 11th - 18th 2023

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understandably, today's stage has now been cancelled. To honor Gino Mäder, the peloton will later in the afternoon ride the final 30 km neutralised.

 

[MartinGT]

 

[Volderke]

The descent wasn't dangerous, it was a accident, unfortunately it happens.
RIP Mader.

As there was already a tailwind in the climb, I reckon the descent was likely faster than average as well.
Remco went into that curve with 90K/hr and slowed down to 70K/hr. There is no room for error once you are in a curve at those speeds.
Here is the curve: https://goo.gl/maps/zwgQqXBzoAgymJyH9
And here is Remco's strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/9270635454/analysis

I don't know for sure if this descent was more tricky than most other descents, but I have a hard time with those people being firm in their statements that it's not dangerous, just because it has been used before.
A descent is always different, as there are variables that change from race to race: the weather, the wind, the surface (e.g. some loose gravel on the road), the way the race was going, (*)...


In the end it's a tragic accident, yes.

The question, whether this kind of accidents can be avoided or at least the chance of accidents can be reduced, is, for me, a valuable one, and if only out of respect, something that has to be investigated in order to prevent this happening again (or reduce the chances of happening), whether it would be a change in the parcours, someone with a flag before that curve, a more detailed briefing of dangerous parts of the course etc. We simply shouldn't take these kind of incidents for granted.

ps: that's all I got to say for the rest of the day.

(*) edit: we don't know for sure if the assistance towards Sheffield (cars, motorbikes stopping in that curve?) played a role in Mader's crash, so maybe this has nothing to do with the descent in particular, but with specific circumstances. We don't know much at this moment... I hope we'll find out and for now all there is to do is mourn.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Terrible news.
Feels in the same state of mind as during or just post stages of the passings of Fabio Casartelli in 1995 Cautarets Tour Stage, Andreï Kivilevs crash in P-N 2003, Wouter Weyland's downhill crash and aftermath during Giro 2011, Björg Lambrecht's very unfortunate crash and news of Xavier Tondo's passing in a home freak garage accident.

Too many good riders have left the world too soon.

Supported by the rider's comments that they pre-stage were satisfied with shortened stage not to do tricky downhill of the Albulapass in the rain, stage cancelling is the only right thing to do now.

My thoughts goes to the talented Gino Mäder's relatives.

Requiescat In Pace.

 

[Andy schleck]

Descents are a part of cycling, and should remain. But that doesn't mean the organizers and UCI can't make an effort on making such descents more safe. That if you are willing to take a risk in a corner, you are still alive. So the focus is mostly on skill, and not on who dares the most.

Let's not forget some "hypocrisy"from the riders. They usually attack in the descents and put his life and also the life of others riders on the line. Ciccone almost crashed in the descent of col de porte on sunday, he was taking risks. Ayuso was taking risks yesterday. Pogacar was attacking vingegaard in the really dangerous descent of spandelles when there was also loose gravel. The organizers sometimes should make the descents more safe, but the riders should also tale less risks, because when they attack in descents, they also put the live of the others rivals in the line.

 

[Berniece]

Let's not forget some "hypocrisy"from the riders. They usually attack in the descents and put his life and also the life of others riders on the line. Ciccone almost crashed in the descent of col de porte on sunday, he was taking risks. Ayuso was taking risks yesterday. Pogacar was attacking vingegaard in the really dangerous descent of spandelles when there was also loose gravel. The organizers sometimes should make the descents more safe, but the riders should also tale less risks, because when they attack in descents, they also put the live of the others rivals in the line.

Indeed, to prevent that you could also start by not finishing downhill

 

[Red Rick]

The natural reaction is to absolve riders of responsibility for their own safety

 

[yaco]

I have always been of the opinion that in a multi-mountain stage then you should never have a descent finish - Some argue that descending is a vital skill which is true, however in a multi-mountain stage you have already descended two or three times.

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

Let's not forget some "hypocrisy"from the riders. They usually attack in the descents and put his life and also the life of others riders on the line. Ciccone almost crashed in the descent of col de porte on sunday, he was taking risks. Ayuso was taking risks yesterday. Pogacar was attacking vingegaard in the really dangerous descent of spandelles when there was also loose gravel. The organizers sometimes should make the descents more safe, but the riders should also tale less risks, because when they attack in descents, they also put the live of the others rivals in the line.

Not only hypocrisy from riders, but also from us fans. How often has this forum not applauded risky descent action 'animating the race'?
Not arguing for any changes, though. Risky descening is a part of racing. Has always been. As others have said, it was an extremely unfortunate accident.

 

[KOM]

Why would it? Portet d'Aspet didn't disappear after Casartelli passed away and neither did Passo del Bocco when Weylandt met his end there. I don't think we'll never see a descent finish into La Punt again, much less that descent finishes are going to suddenly disappear after today.

Completely different time. Nowadays we get multiple essays and/or strikes and altered routes anytime it rains during a race (forgive the hyperbole) so I think its quite likely this horrible incident will change the races in some shape or form.

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Here we go. Expect alot more of this

 

[Rackham]

I can't really say anything that hasn't already been said already but cycling is an outdoor activity & a road activity in particular. Anything at high speed is automatically dangerous wherever it is. Cyclists are killed all the time. Pro cyclists are killed or seriously hurt even in training.

This isn't to say risks cannot be mitigated by the organizers, i.e. they absolutely can & should do everything to make sure road furniture is padded & riders are warned about risky parts of the route.

But there's never going to be a completely safe descent in cycling, ever. It's not even just about descent finishes, i.e. Tao Geoghegan Hart fractured his hip in the Giro on an innocuous descent in the middle of nowhere just because the peloton accelerated after a sprinter was dropped on the climb & his rival sprinters wanted to distance him. So they started to drill the descent & a crash happened.

150 riders made it to the finish yesterday. Two went off on the descent. One resulted in tragedy. It's awful & I feel sick right now, but some things cannot ever be fixed to the point of zero danger - or else we might as well just cancel the sport.

 

[Aimar16]

In general, this descent was not dangerous. But there should have been a warning sign or light on that corner to alert riders to the danger if the team's sports director was very lazy and didn't point this out at the briefing before the stage. I wonder if the Swiss police have the power to investigate such an omission.

 

[MartinGT]

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Here we go. Expect alot more of this

That Benji talks tripe most of the time.

 

[Lequack]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669677465558548482

View: https://twitter.com/sidywhite_/status/1669677465558548482?s=20

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I smell victim blaming here. Quite inappropriate.

Bear in mind that crashes do happen often, without conscious guilt or stupid risks taken, as well as many cases where the rider has had no opportunities to react, e.g. descent in larger groups, insidious road surface, etc.

Myself, I've followed pro cycling and motorsports for +40 years and both sports implies risks of unfortunate outcomes.

I'm probably quite alone with my POV, but I don't like the ideas of awkward safety measures, ranking of descents or the like at all. One could also add safety barriers or neutralize descents in general, but that would take away some of the soul of the sport.

The risk is part of the game, and yes part of the responsibility lies on the rider's shoulders.

However, I am sickened by mocking hindsight and criticism of a rider on the same day he/she has left us.

Sorry for my harsh tone, but let's respect Gino Mäder and his relatives this day and we can discuss safety measures and the "who's to blame" another day.

Thanks in advance.

 

[OlavEH]

Was it at this point that Mäder went off the road?

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[Tim Cahill]

People seem to be rushing to get their takes out on descents on social media in the immediate aftermath, with little known about the full circumstances other than that someone has died. I felt a bit for Evenepoel, he is young and quite an emotional lad, saw something bad happening and got put on the spot in the interview, but Hansen really should know better. When something like this happens, like with Colbrelli and Jakobsen, it's always the wiser choice to first extend sympathies then wait until the full facts and nature of the accident are known. I can appreciate that some people's natural response is to try and help, and wouldn't have a go at them for doing so, but right after the incident and without proper context can strike the wrong tone and come off as distasteful.

 

[KOM]

That Benji talks tripe most of the time.

Yea I know its like farming, but that is how those things always start and then take on a life of their own

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Let's not forget some "hypocrisy"from the riders. They usually attack in the descents and put his life and also the life of others riders on the line. Ciccone almost crashed in the descent of col de porte on sunday, he was taking risks. Ayuso was taking risks yesterday. Pogacar was attacking vingegaard in the really dangerous descent of spandelles when there was also loose gravel. The organizers sometimes should make the descents more safe, but the riders should also tale less risks, because when they attack in descents, they also put the live of the others rivals in the line.

You can't really ask people that participate in racing to go slower, cause the all point of it is to go as fast as possible. When Senna died the FIA didn't go to the driver and told them to go slower, 'cause that would have been asinine. They put in place better safety measures. UCI should do the same. I don't think we should ban descent finishes, but adequate safety measure should be taken if a downhill is in a place where it's probably going to be ridden flat out.

 

[Aimar16]

Was it at this point that Mäder went off the road?

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There is a picture on the police website, I assume the one on the right is Gino's line - https://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/verwaltung/djsg/kapo/aktuelles/medien/2023/Seiten/202306161.aspx

 

[Gigs_98]

I'm sorry but I cannot believe anyone who watched the race yesterday didn't think that descent looked dangerous. I really don't want to argue about the pros and cons of downhill finishes right now, that's not a discussion to be held today, but whenever riders are able to reach 100kph on a descent with blind corners, the risk goes up dramatically.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Was it at this point that Mäder went off the road?

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Yes

 

[dominikk85]

Let's not forget some "hypocrisy"from the riders. They usually attack in the descents and put his life and also the life of others riders on the line. Ciccone almost crashed in the descent of col de porte on sunday, he was taking risks. Ayuso was taking risks yesterday. Pogacar was attacking vingegaard in the really dangerous descent of spandelles when there was also loose gravel. The organizers sometimes should make the descents more safe, but the riders should also tale less risks, because when they attack in descents, they also put the live of the others rivals in the line.

Yes, riders are making it more dangerous but don't forget their job is to win and their livelihood hinges on that.

Of course pros could go each descent half a minute slower but that wouldn't be beneficial for their goal of winning races.

I can't say whether that specific incident was related to the route but maybe routes could be made a bit less dangerous, I don't know.

The UCI did of course already take some measures like banning the super tuck but maybe they can do more, not sure.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't know the solution, or the best possible course of action. And clearly you can't go uphill without eventually going downhill. But as others have stated, also former pros (like Breukink just a few minutes ago) if you put a descent after the final climb, you know riders are going to take risks, both for the stagewin as for GC, while exhausted from the climb. I see a lot of people making a case for not changing anything, because this or that descent has been done before without people crashing. Or because riders don't have to take risks that exceed their skills, that they are responsible for their own actions. But what happens at 100kmh when the sun momentarily blinds you peaking through the trees, or when the rider in front of you swerves for a bad patch on the road that you could not see. An accident will blindside you, and it's easy to say it only happens to those who are unskilled or taking too many risks. I think some of the most revered descenders have also crashed, but some were lucky enough to get on the bike again. Also thousands of people get in their cars every day, without issue. But it are the ones that have died, that have made sure now everyones lifes are safer. Seatbelts, airbags, ABS... Intersections get redesigned to make them safer, even though millions cross them without crashing.

I also remember a near-unanimous consensus on downhill sprint finishes. Maybe someone can explain to me what the difference is exactly. Speeds exceeding 80kmh, long straight and wide road. Riders take the risks themeselves. Why blame organizers? Why change anything or why forbid such finishes? You can't advocate against downhill sprint finishes, and argue nothing should be done about descends towards a finishline, with a straight face.

But if anything, at the very least Mäder is spared being called bambi, in case he might have taken a bit less risks next time had he ever been granted that luxury. I guess that's something.

 

[Gratemans]

The question, whether this kind of accidents can be avoided or at least the chance of accidents can be reduced, is, for me, a valuable one, and if only out of respect, something that has to be investigated in order to prevent this happening again (or reduce the chances of happening), whether it would be a change in the parcours, someone with a flag before that curve, a more detailed briefing of dangerous parts of the course etc. We simply shouldn't take these kind of incidents for granted.

I've always been more on the "risks are a part of cycling and cyclists have their own responsibility" end of the spectrum, but what you suggest here seems like a very level headed and logical approach I can definitely get behind.