a possible future for usa riders

[Polish]

There are many haters in the Clinic that are wishing and hoping for a Livestrong U23 Bust. Why was this thread even posted in the Clinic lol.

"But we want the future riders to live in a clean cycling world"....bs.
Handbaggers. They know Mr King is a doper. Sure of it they are. They know.

But anyway, maybe Mr King can be the next Jacky Durand?
Seems to be cut from the same cloth.
Everyone likes dudu doper.

 

[flicker]

There are many haters in the Clinic that are wishing and hoping for a Livestrong U23 Bust. Why was this thread even posted in the Clinic lol.

"But we want the future riders to live in a clean cycling world"....bs.
Handbaggers. They know Mr King is a doper. Sure of it they are. They know.

But anyway, maybe Mr King can be the next Jacky Durand?
Seems to be cut from the same cloth.
Everyone likes dudu doper.

Pretty much everyone here hates Armstrong Axel and American cycling. That is pretty much what this thread is about.

 

[Barrus]

My main gripe with the livestrong team and the reason why I remain sceptical of the team is the big involvement of Axel. Even if the team is completely seperate from Radioshack, no crosspollution so to say between the pro team and the u23 team, I still have my doubts due to the involvement of Axel and have had these reservations for as long as I know of his involvement. Now I am not saying Ben King is doping and I am especially not saying there is systematic doping, but Axel being a part of the team does lead me to suspect that if one of them ask for better preparation it will be offered, or that certain riders might be pressured to perform better.

 

[JRTinMA]

If you really think that an uncharged 21 year old can hold off a half dozen Pro Tour (doped) veterans for the second half of a 120 mile race then I think you need to go back into the clinic and do some reading.

Ben King did not hold off a half dozen doped pro tour riders for 120 miles, what he did to win was drop two domestic pros. I can assure you one of those two he rode away from is clean and I don't know anything about the other. The pack never chased until it was to late and it was really kind of feeble from what I saw. Either CN or VN painted this vision of an organized chase but I ain't buying it. The chase seemed to fall apart pretty quick. I don't think much of LA but if he's trying to get a 21yo on a program today in 2010 there're no words to describe him.

 

[Barrus]

I don't think much of LA but if he's trying to get a 21yo on a program today in 2010 there're no words to describe him.

Well there des appear to be some sytematic doping in ceetain u23 squads, so I would not be surprised (for an example see this years giro-bio). I don't think that u23 doping is that unique to be honest.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

If it wasn't so obvious that everybody at the top dopes and that the biggest doper of them all owns the team the kid races for we would have no reason to be cynical.
I believe Lance would heartily recommend it to any young rider, look what it has done for him.
Clearly he won because nobody chased until it was too late, I can not dispute that.
Just saying I find it a little hard to trust anyone associated with LA, JB, and AM.

Fair enough. I can appreciate your distrust of those characters. I completely agree that they've been involved in some pretty dirty antics.

But I'm gonna draw the line suspecting they'd go as low as doping kids in America. I just do not think they'd go there. I have a bunch of reasons why I think this, but I'm not sure its worth bringing up... I think we'll just end up in disagreement, and that is fine.

What's a shame is that Ben King is a really good kid, a talented kid, and he can't even get his career started without it being suspicious to some.

I like to think the sport is really changing. I'm an optimist. But I know we need real cynics to make sure whatever 'change' is taking places continues and takes root. If we all get too cheery and think its done we'll be back in the cesspool before we know it.

I think Ben King is clean right now. Same for Phinney and all the TLS kids. What I'm afraid of for Ben, Phinney, Dowsett, Sergent, Bewley, Salendar, etc are the choices they may have to face in the next 2-3 yrs.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Ben King did not hold off a half dozen doped pro tour riders for 120 miles, what he did to win was drop two domestic pros. I can assure you one of those two he rode away from is clean and I don't know anything about the other. The pack never chased until it was to late and it was really kind of feeble from what I saw. Either CN or VN painted this vision of an organized chase but I ain't buying it. The chase seemed to fall apart pretty quick. I don't think much of LA but if he's trying to get a 21yo on a program today in 2010 there're no words to describe him.

I think Lance would have a hard time understanding why any rider would not dope.
I am not saying Ben King dopes, and I really hope you guys who are convinced that he is clean are right. I am saying that the Livestrong DS is much more in the Bruynell, Riis, Armstrong camp than in the Vaughters camp, and that has to cast some sort of doubt just on it's own.
I would like to officially withdraw my characterization of King's ride as "holding off" the best in the field, as I hadn't read all the accounts of the race at that point. Looks like the BMC boys seriously underestimated the collusion between Radioshack and Livestrong teams, and they gambled and lost big time.

 

[velosopher54]

Fair enough. I can appreciate your distrust of those characters. I completely agree that they've been involved in some pretty dirty antics.

But I'm gonna draw the line suspecting they'd go as low as doping kids in America. I just do not think they'd go there. I have a bunch of reasons why I think this, but I'm not sure its worth bringing up... I think we'll just end up in disagreement, and that is fine.

What's a shame is that Ben King is a really good kid, a talented kid, and he can't even get his career started without it being suspicious to some.

I like to think the sport is really changing. I'm an optimist. But I know we need real cynics to make sure whatever 'change' is taking places continues and takes root. If we all get too cheery and think its done we'll be back in the cesspool before we know it.

I think Ben King is clean right now. Same for Phinney and all the TLS kids. What I'm afraid of for Ben, Phinney, Dowsett, Sergent, Bewley, Salendar, etc are the choices they may have to face in the next 2-3 yrs.

The book, From Lance to Landis, describes doping 17 y.o. kids in the U.S. without parental consent. Good book to read if you really want to know doping history in US cycling.

I wish I could believe these young guys are clean but I just cannot, knowing the history and LA's reputation of pressuring others to dope.

 

[rhubroma]

Fair enough. I can appreciate your distrust of those characters. I completely agree that they've been involved in some pretty dirty antics.

But I'm gonna draw the line suspecting they'd go as low as doping kids in America. I just do not think they'd go there. I have a bunch of reasons why I think this, but I'm not sure its worth bringing up... I think we'll just end up in disagreement, and that is fine.

What's a shame is that Ben King is a really good kid, a talented kid, and he can't even get his career started without it being suspicious to some.

I like to think the sport is really changing. I'm an optimist. But I know we need real cynics to make sure whatever 'change' is taking places continues and takes root. If we all get too cheery and think its done we'll be back in the cesspool before we know it.

I think Ben King is clean right now. Same for Phinney and all the TLS kids. What I'm afraid of for Ben, Phinney, Dowsett, Sergent, Bewley, Salendar, etc are the choices they may have to face in the next 2-3 yrs.

Awe, come on. Kids in America havne been doping in the high school locker rooms for decades, so lets drop this ridiculous and naive childhood "innocense" nonesence. Why should it surprise anyone that a top level amatuer cycling team would possibly have dopers on it? And as a product of the Livestrong environment?! In Europe it's normal at this level. And these are the folks the top US potentials will be competing in as future pros.

LA doesn't have to be directly responsible in any case, but why should we think that this of all guy's team is cleaner than all the rest?! If I wanted to avoid being placed under suspicion for my wins, then the first thing I do is disassociate myself from this man and his enourage's camp. Or else accept the consequences of my own "eagerness."

 

[Hugh Januss]

The book, From Lance to Landis, describes doping 17 y.o. kids in the U.S. without parental consent. Good book to read if you really want to know doping history in US cycling.

I wish I could believe these young guys are clean but I just cannot, knowing the history and LA's reputation of pressuring others to dope.

This......

 

[Polish]

I think Ben King is clean right now. Same for Phinney and all the TLS kids. What I'm afraid of for Ben, Phinney, Dowsett, Sergent, Bewley, Salendar, etc are the choices they may have to face in the next 2-3 yrs.

Yes, they will be facing tough choices in the years to come.

Those very few talented enough to become Pro Athletes have a solemn responsibilty for sure. Sports fans deserve to see exciting but clean awesomeness. That is why the Pro's are paid the Big Bucks after all.

But do not forget about the choices that ALL young people face as they begin their careers. I know this is a cycling forum, but we should not totally ignore the equally tough choices faced by doctors, lawyers, housepainters, miners and chimney sweeps.

 

[JRTinMA]

I would like to officially withdraw my characterization of King's ride as "holding off" the best in the field, as I hadn't read all the accounts of the race at that point. Looks like the BMC boys seriously underestimated the collusion between Radioshack and Livestrong teams, and they gambled and lost big time.

Can a pro tour team and its development team collude? That seems to imply something illegal or a back room deal. King was in a TLS kit and he has announced he will ride for RS next year. If BMC didn't consider that fact they are to blame for poor race management. BMC made a tactical error that made them look completely amateur and removed the pack from the race for all practical purposes. All Ben had to do was not crash at that point since he disposed of Scotty Z and whoever the heck that other guy was.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, they will be facing tough choices in the years to come.

Those very few talented enough to become Pro Athletes have a solemn responsibilty for sure. Sports fans deserve to see exciting but clean awesomeness. That is why the Pro's are paid the Big Bucks after all.

But do not forget about the choices that ALL young people face as they begin their careers. I know this is a cycling forum, but we should not totally ignore the equally tough choices faced by doctors, lawyers, housepainters, miners and chimney sweeps.

what about the impossible choice of a ball polisher?

 

[egtalbot]

@rhubroma basically said it - high school kids are doping all over the country, both in sports and just to bulk up. With nothing mroe at stake than self-esteem.

Doesn't mean Livestrong is dirty and I applaud these guys (especially King) for incredible wins. But I don't see how one could be surprised at U23 doping, even systematic doping. And I especially don't see it as a large leap to go from being part of the doped peloton (which I assume quite a few pros over the past two decades are) to helping the youngsters with said program.

 

[kielbasa]

Its certainly possible when that 21 year old kid is given 17 minutes at one point. And that gap was just over 1.5 minutes when Ben reached the finish line.

This type of effort is exactly the way Ben trains. He does long days at a steady effort level, like riding a multiple hour break away. At training camp he caught some flak from the rest of us because everyone thought he was training the wrong way. It looks like now all that type of riding really payed off.

There is no organized doping on the team, I can assure you of that from personal experience.

Sweet Spot Training is the s***! I likewise know a rider on Trek/Livestrong and having discussed the issue of cheating in cycling with him I have absolutely no reason to believe that he would ever engage in doping. There are talented cyclists in the world for whom winning bike races isn't everything. I also know of a rider who was on the national team, but quit to go on a Mormon mission (2 years of "field" work). He's a lawyer now and still smokes 1/2's in races he enters.

 

[Benotti69]

since when is a 21yr old a kid?

not a kid after 12 years old when you become a teen, then at 20 an adult

It is believed that LA started taking PEDs at a young (16/17) age, i have no link but remember talk of it and images of him from back then suggest it.

the people running this team believe in doping and have doped themselves with Ferarri, so open your eyes.

wanna be clean, great, wanna be seen as clean, well stay away from known ex dopers.

In the age of doping what should you do to make sure your career is clean of doping and clean of innuendo? if you dont know the answer i can not help you

 

[JRTinMA]

wanna be clean, great, wanna be seen as clean, well stay away from known ex dopers.

This statement sounds like a very good idea but its not possible. There is not a single team without multiple ties to doping. Get real.

 

[zwiebel2004]

Sweet Spot Training is the s***! I likewise know a rider on Trek/Livestrong and having discussed the issue of cheating in cycling with him I have absolutely no reason to believe that he would ever engage in doping. There are talented cyclists in the world for whom winning bike races isn't everything. I also know of a rider who was on the national team, but quit to go on a Mormon mission (2 years of "field" work). He's a lawyer now and still smokes 1/2's in races he enters.

Sorry, off topic but:

I think I know the guy you are talking about who went on the mission! Does he work out of Las Vegas now?

 

[kielbasa]

Sorry, off topic but:

I think I know the guy you are talking about who went on the mission! Does he work out of Las Vegas now?

That's the one.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Can a pro tour team and its development team collude? That seems to imply something illegal or a back room deal. King was in a TLS kit and he has announced he will ride for RS next year. If BMC didn't consider that fact they are to blame for poor race management. BMC made a tactical error that made them look completely amateur and removed the pack from the race for all practical purposes. All Ben had to do was not crash at that point since he disposed of Scotty Z and whoever the heck that other guy was.

I think it does walk the line, and other than the excitement of the early break going the distance it didn't make for very good racing, did it?
It is really all on BMC though, why they didn't at least send somebody over to the break right at the beginning is hard to figure.
That "other guy" was Dan Holloway current Pro Criterium Champion.

 

[luckyboy]

Could just be that Trek/Livestrong have snapped up the best youngsters.

Pretty much my first thought.

Also, if they're not doping now, they will be when they make the step-up.

 

[JRTinMA]

I think it does walk the line, and other than the excitement of the early break going the distance it didn't make for very good racing, did it?
It is really all on BMC though, why they didn't at least send somebody over to the break right at the beginning is hard to figure.
That "other guy" was Dan Holloway current Pro Criterium Champion.

The race was boring for sure. The excitement was really watching three domestic pros beat up on the pro tour guys. It was hard not to pull for them as clear underdogs, I wanted SZ to win but he could not hang on the climb.

Halloway already has two jerseys this year, I'm glad he didn't win then, pffft. Crit racing is where its at in this country, I should have known that, thanks.

 

[BigBoat]

I dont think cycling is hurt by more doping accusations. It already has a doped up reputation. Potential new riders dont give two $hits about drugs and doping.

Did Taylor Phinney and Ben King have jacked hematocrits for those races. That should be a resounding OF COURSE THEY DID!!!

How many top hockey players their age (and soccer players, football players, basketball players, swimmers) are jacked? Alot. It is what it is.

Cycling no matter how much fun it is, will never have 1/10th the popularity of hockey, soccer, golf or even ping pong! And, this has nothing at all to do with doping. Its hard, its long and monotonous, etc, etc.

 

[Cloxxki]

In the Yanks' defense, at the TdF the usual suspects seemed, apart from the prologue, surprising human. As in, being dropped on the first flyover. Not even contending a lead group sprint. Falling out of the top-10 being beating by a loyal domestique of their own team so seems to pedal more than quack.
2010 was probably the cleanest year for Bruyneel's rider. If the Livestrong team is to be guilty by association, this year's riders picked a pretty clean year. And, no Vuelta.

 

[blackcat]

wow, welcome back BigBoat. You are much missed.

The voice of reason, as always, BigBoat.

no flames