a possible future for usa riders

[BigBoat]

In the Yanks' defense, at the TdF the usual suspects seemed, apart from the prologue, surprising human. As in, being dropped on the first flyover. Not even contending a lead group sprint. Falling out of the top-10 being beating by a loyal domestique of their own team so seems to pedal more than quack.
2010 was probably the cleanest year for Bruyneel's rider. If the Livestrong team is to be guilty by association, this year's riders picked a pretty clean year. And, no Vuelta.

I dont buy it, But I dont really care all that much.

 

[JRTinMA]

Did Taylor Phinney and Ben King have jacked hematocrits for those races. That should be a resounding OF COURSE THEY DID!!!

Back under the bridge with you.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Back under the bridge with you.

I give him at least as good of a chance of being right in this as I would give you.

 

[slcbiker]

Very simple guilt by association here.

For example, we know that jazz musicians Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker doped. To have been a successful rival of theirs, Louis Armstrong must also have doped. Plus he has that suspicious last name.

 

[luckyboy]

Welcome back BigBoat

 

[flicker]

The book, From Lance to Landis, describes doping 17 y.o. kids in the U.S. without parental consent. Good book to read if you really want to know doping history in US cycling.

I wish I could believe these young guys are clean but I just cannot, knowing the history and LA's reputation of pressuring others to dope.

You are a brave man to read LA to FL. I would not follow cycling at all if I read that book!

 

[BroDeal]

Very simple guilt by association here.

When someone joins John Gotti's crew, I don't have a problem concluding that he is up to no good, even if he has not been arrested yet. I know it is just a matter of time before he ends up in prison or a hole in the ground.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Very simple guilt by association here.

For example, we know that jazz musicians Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker doped. To have been a successful rival of theirs, Louis Armstrong must also have doped. Plus he has that suspicious last name.

Extremely lame analogy here.
We could make that assumption if we knew that heroin increased ones ability to play jazz by up to 20%. Without that knowledge however guilt by association falls flat.

 

[The Hitch]

Do you have a single shred of evidence to suggest this? If knowing somebody or riding on a certain team is your basis you must be very frustrated. There is only 2 or 3 degrees of separation between any active rider and doping. This is irresponsible to post and stinks of jealousy.

This is the clinic. Because of the secretive nature of doping it is difficult for us to offer concrete evidence for anything. As a result we can only speculate. For most of the riders who got caught, either through puerto or tests, there was absolutely no evidence for their doping before they got caught.
This is not a court of law. It is a forum. When such a thread - based entirely on speculaion, is created, we can then discuss it and very often, posters with better knowledge on the issue offer evidence either way. IMO that is how the clinic works best.

 

[rhubroma]

@rhubroma basically said it - high school kids are doping all over the country, both in sports and just to bulk up. With nothing mroe at stake than self-esteem.

Doesn't mean Livestrong is dirty and I applaud these guys (especially King) for incredible wins. But I don't see how one could be surprised at U23 doping, even systematic doping. And I especially don't see it as a large leap to go from being part of the doped peloton (which I assume quite a few pros over the past two decades are) to helping the youngsters with said program.

Indeed it all boils down to hard work.

Unfortuantely the way modern sport has developed in this market driven world, and not only in cycling, is that athletes are constantly having higher and higher demands placed upon them to become faster, stronger, better, etc. As old records (set by doped athletes) are broken (by doped athletes on the next generation of PEDs) and new standards of excellence are set, it has become natural for athletes to look elsewhere for that edge that without the help of science would be otherwise impossible. Take this with the prospect of acquiring fame and great wealth and the illicit culture with all its possible detrimental health consequences becomes a system within which a developing athlete gets sucked into at an increasingly young age. So that what used to exist within the realm of trying to "beat the world record" has now become a modus operandi even for the teenager in seek of finding self esteem, or the master category racer to feel at one with the pros and conquer the frustrations of his/her own short-comings.

Science, human instinct and the business market (which demands results at all levels) have created the monster. This is why I find it nearly impossible to believe that these guys are clean.

 

[TubularBills]

Indeed it all boils down to hard work.

Unfortuantely the way modern sport has developed in this market driven world, and not only in cycling, is that athletes are constantly having higher and higher demands placed upon them to become faster, stronger, better, etc. As old records (set by doped athletes) are broken (by doped athletes on the next generation of PEDs) and new standards of excellence are set, it has become natural for athletes to look elsewhere for that edge that without the help of science would be otherwise impossible. Take this with the prospect of acquiring fame and great wealth and the illicit culture with all its possible detrimental health consequences becomes a system within which a developing athlete gets sucked into at an increasingly young age. So that what used to exist within the realm of trying to "beat the world record" has now become a modus operandi even for the teenager in seek of finding self esteem, or the master category racer to feel at one with the pros and conquer the frustrations of his/her own short-comings.

Science, human instinct and the business market (which demands results at all levels) have created the monster. This is why I find it nearly impossible to believe that these guys are clean.

Well Said and great discussion. I would add that, hopefully, the sport is evolving; As 'victims' of the "join the program or be fired," enter team management they gain the means and authority to initiate significant internal change and there appears a glimmer of hope.

Market Driven corruption is cancer, and equally difficult to eradicate.

I am perhaps more optimistic and in agreement with your opening line, that it does "Indeed (it) all boil(s) down to hard work. And hope that this exceptionally talented new generation is a result of just that.

 

[Benotti69]

This statement sounds like a very good idea but its not possible. There is not a single team without multiple ties to doping. Get real.

Get real, get on a team that is outspoken about doping. Garmin is 1 such team, whether they are dope free, i cannot say if they are, but if your interested in riding clean this is the type of team you should be aiming for and you know what their results show a team that is not 'obviously' doping.

you want to avoid suspicion make the right choice. but i doubt King gives a toss.

 

[flicker]

Indeed it all boils down to hard work.

Unfortuantely the way modern sport has developed in this market driven world, and not only in cycling, is that athletes are constantly having higher and higher demands placed upon them to become faster, stronger, better, etc. As old records (set by doped athletes) are broken (by doped athletes on the next generation of PEDs) and new standards of excellence are set, it has become natural for athletes to look elsewhere for that edge that without the help of science would be otherwise impossible. Take this with the prospect of acquiring fame and great wealth and the illicit culture with all its possible detrimental health consequences becomes a system within which a developing athlete gets sucked into at an increasingly young age. So that what used to exist within the realm of trying to "beat the world record" has now become a modus operandi even for the teenager in seek of finding self esteem, or the master category racer to feel at one with the pros and conquer the frustrations of his/her own short-comings.

Science, human instinct and the business market (which demands results at all levels) have created the monster. This is why I find it nearly impossible to believe that these guys are clean.

Grasshoper,

Exactly my point. I think that is Joe Papps' point in these ramblings.

For those who suspect Charm-ical, Axel,Bruyneel,Armstrong, well good.

I shudder to think what you think of the "special developmental training" which is being used on jrs. and U-23 in the countries of Italy, Belgium, Holland, Ukraine, Spain,Kazakastan,Russia ah the list goes on and on.

That is only in cycling. I think the youngsters are being primed with something stronger then the herb that Micheal Phelps smoked.