A question about doping in the UK

[zalacain]

Funny, because I am at liberty to go anywhere in the UK without ID (unlike much of continental europe), typical scarmongering journalis you have quoted.

I take it you don't have any problems with Stop & Search then?

 

[horsinabout]

That commentor could read up a little bit on the state of the UK:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-big-brother-state-ndash-by-stealth-1050576.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-pupils-aged--complete-CPS-evidence-kit.html

But hey, that was only in the DDR

I wouldn't read too much into the daily mail if I were you, plus these articles are a bit old now. This stuff was more to do with New Labour, Tony Blair's control freakism.

 

[horsinabout]

Personally I think the article was very poor, there was not context on the fact the Vinoukarov is an unrepentant doper, the comparisons with East Germany were poor, and the guys main gripe was the money spent on helping sports stars and talent identification. The comment that Cloxii highlighted showed that the article was not very well researched.

Oh come on... it highlight some worthy points that are not being written about in the mainstream media. If you are going to take that approach then why are you in the clinic?

Have you read the Guardian lately, I don't think any journalism is good anymore.

 

[horsinabout]

Ironic given how much stick the British media gets in this place, yet it's suddenly used to prove that the UK is like East Germany.

I've never been asked for for ID. Maybe it's a different story in the main cities but out here in the West Country you can sleep fairly easy that you won't be carted off by a secret police in the dead of night.

You've lived a sheltered life JF, that's what it is...comes from living in Somerset.

 

[del1962]

I take it you don't have any problems with Stop & Search then?

I have no problem with it, it is a tool that allows police to do their often thankless job.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You've lived a sheltered life JF, that's what it is...comes from living in Somerset.

You don't know anything about my life, don't presume that you do. For a start there are several more counties in the West Country than just Somerset.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ironic given how much stick the British media gets in this place, yet it's suddenly used to prove that the UK is like East Germany.

I've never been asked for for ID. Maybe it's a different story in the main cities but out here in the West Country you can sleep fairly easy that you won't be carted off by a secret police in the dead of night.

Lets just say civil liberties are not so liberal anymore, not in the UK, not here in Holland, certainly not in the US.

So, the comparison with the former DDR is not out of place, if you are being watched 'subtle' does that make it better than Stasi - like? In my opinion it is even worse, giving people the feeling they are 'free' but at the other hand have them under total control.

I'll leave it at that, it was a respond on the quoted piece by xleigh, so kinda of topic

 

[Hawkwood]

Lets just say civil liberties are not so liberal anymore, not in the UK, not here in Holland, certainly not in the US.

So, the comparison with the former DDR is not out of place, if you are being watched 'subtle' does that make it better than Stasi - like? In my opinion it is even worse, giving people the feeling they are 'free' but at the other hand have them under total control.

I'll leave it at that, it was a respond on the quoted piece by xleigh, so kinda of topic

I'm 52 and live in the UK. I have never been asked for my ID by the British police, I have been asked for my ID twice by French police, once with a an officer pointing a gun in my direction! This was when I had accidently cycled into a no go zone set up for a visit by Francois Mitterand!

 

[horsinabout]

You don't know anything about my life, don't presume that you do. For a start there are several more counties in the West Country than just Somerset.

No I wasn't presuming anything, don't take it that way for goodness sake.

Try in Gloucestershire then (just checked). With it's quaint little villages, thatch cottages, old cobbled streets and some English scones with cream tea in the summer garden. Oh and not to mention cider with Rosie.

 

[horsinabout]

I'm 52 and live in the UK. I have never been asked for my ID by the British police, I have been asked for my ID twice by French police, once with a an officer pointing a gun in my direction! This was when I had accidently cycled into a no go zone set up for a visit by Francois Mitterand!

Try being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes for one sorry day in London 2005. And then sit back and watch how the police lied about him.

 

[weeniebeenie]

You've lived a sheltered life JF, that's what it is...comes from living in Somerset.

Oi, I am from Somerset. That offends both me and my wife/sister.

 

[martinvickers]

Lets just say civil liberties are not so liberal anymore, not in the UK, not here in Holland, certainly not in the US.

So, the comparison with the former DDR is not out of place, if you are being watched 'subtle' does that make it better than Stasi - like? In my opinion it is even worse, giving people the feeling they are 'free' but at the other hand have them under total control.

I'll leave it at that, it was a respond on the quoted piece by xleigh, so kinda of topic

Honestly, Fearless - Learn this difference



Freedoms slightly curtailed. Unpleasant weather. Occasional *** police officer.

vs.

Brutal Secret police infested communist dictatorship. Enemies regularly liquidated. Children stolen for sports science hell.

I know throwing mud at the 'awful' Brits (or dutch, or yanks) is fun and all, but GDR/DDR was just about hell on earth for those kids. Literally. There is simply no comparison. None.

when you make such silly comparisons, you undermine any merit in your original argument.

EDIT. and for the record, I've been stopped and searched while in London. As they oft said here, Guilty until proven irish. Which, given I was stopped going into a court, was kind of ironic.

 

[armchairclimber]

I liked the Sab Times article...good stuff for debate but it was, slightly, missing the target. However, that target is OT for this forum.
I only have narrow knowledge of elite sport...(ie I know nowt about rowing, Judo etc) but I've yet to encounter doping amongst international class runners.

Funnily enough...and this may seem OT but it refers to a remark about ageing athletes improving, in the sport of mountain/fell running such things are commonplace.

Anyway...the TeamGB thing: lots of hothousing, targeted funding etc. The scandal is not so much doping (not yet seen it)...more the fact that all the funding has vanished. Gras roots sports have been abandoned since the olympics. In Athletics, the funds are being targeted at 18 plus year olds who have shown elite talent. All the hundreds of young kids who turn up at local clubs every week to "have a go"...to participate in the "sport for all" spirit...well, they can go to hell.

The ST article is spot on in that respect.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Honestly, Fearless - Learn this difference



Freedoms slightly curtailed. Unpleasant weather. Occasional *** police officer.

vs.

Brutal Secret police infested communist dictatorship. Enemies regularly liquidated. Children stolen for sports science hell.

I know throwing mud at the 'awful' Brits (or dutch, or yanks) is fun and all, but GDR/DDR was just about hell on earth for those kids. Literally. There is simply no comparison. None.

when you make such silly comparisons, you undermine any merit in your original argument.

EDIT. and for the record, I've been stopped and searched while in London. As they oft said here, Guilty until proven irish. Which, given I was stopped going into a court, was kind of ironic.

Agree with your basic point re: the stupidity of any comparisons between the UK (or anywhere else) and the old DDR/GDR, which was one of the most utterly depressing, and repressive, places imaginable.

However, on the subject of uptight, jacked-up, uniformed, suspicious, 'jobsworth' officials, I have never been asked as many ridiculous and personal questions anywhere in the world as I have been when attempting to enter the UK. The automatic assumption seems to be that any foreign passport holder approaching a UK immigration official has secret plans to stay in the UK and sponge off the welfare state - even a perfectly normal 60+ couple with US passports visiting for a concert.

 

[martinvickers]

Agree with your basic point re: the stupidity of any comparisons between the UK (or anywhere else) and the old DDR/GDR, which was one of the most utterly depressing, and repressive, places imaginable.

However, on the subject of uptight, jacked-up, uniformed, suspicious, 'jobsworth' officials, I have never been asked as many ridiculous and personal questions anywhere in the world as I have been when attempting to enter the UK. The automatic assumption seems to be that any foreign passport holder approaching a UK immigration official has secret plans to stay in the UK and sponge off the welfare state - even a perfectly normal 60+ couple with US passports visiting for a concert.

It's not an automatic assumption, it's an 'accepted' truth. the UK (well, England to be be brutally honest) is currently in the grip of its worst "immigrant" paranoias in years, maybe since the South Asian migrations.

The former UK Border head recently got the heave-ho for letting too many people in too easily - it was a major scandal for Theresa May. So I'd say the powers that be have got the message to the front line - Be D!cks to every johnny foreigner,

Of course, the joy(?) of the common travel area (a kind of british isles mini-Schengen) is that Irish, northern or southern, are not 'foreign' for the purposes of UK law. No passport required for domestic entry, etc, etc...And you still have to deal with officious ******s

 

[horsinabout]

When one compares similarities with GB sporting success to that of the GDR does not mean you are making a comparison about the brutality of the East German system and it's enforced doping program, as is being suggested in this thread, this is a diversion.

There are comparisons such as the current dominance and disproportionate number of medals being won by UK track cycling in particular, this comparison with the Eastern block is valid. It would be a better debate to compare the similarities as well as the difference.

It might also be constructive research to speak with the East Germans too before making double standard judgements on them, as an article I once read stated that no one really believed in any of the propaganda of the sports system. The GDR people wanting freedom and to assimilate more with the west. This was one of the reasons why the wall came down in the end, it was a matter of time.

Lutz Hesslich of the former GDR here in this video is talking about his glory days. My little knowledge of German can just make out that he is comparing his record break through time of 9.98secs on Moscow in 1984, first sub 10sec 200m sprint to Chris Hoy's first sub 10sec 200m time. Also talks about whether in top form he could compete with Hoy.

Looks like Lutz got quite a good deal out of the East German program, possibly not as much as his later day counterparts financially.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gDhT1rhvUE&feature=share&list=FL9Sj88o5PLOpm_FDd8Z93DQ

The glory days....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwq4hyc_mg&feature=share&list=FL9Sj88o5PLOpm_FDd8Z93D

Then after GDR dominance there was a period (shown in video below) where it became more multi-national. World records falling with each rider due to the altitude. All this before GB dominance from Beijing to London Olympics.

Watch some great old sprint cycling footage for those who may be interested. And pay particular attention to Kurt Harnett,who rides a technically perfect 200TT! http://youtu.be/r2VuGVefboU

The videos show it has all been done before, with marginal gain improvements of course. Wiggins and Hoy are now almost certainly both multi millionaire's that reports say are avoiding paying their full tax. In the case of Wiggins is prone to tantrums and fan abuse outbursts yet none the less being portrayed as a nice guy by the British media, and we are all expected to afford them our utmost respect!

 

[mikehammer67]

marginal gains hits uk soccer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22299347

01.30 lol sounds familiar

 

[Hawkwood]

Try being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes for one sorry day in London 2005. And then sit back and watch how the police lied about him.

I don't get how the tragic case of Menezes links to what I wrote? You do remember what led up to Menezes' death? Two weeks before his shooting the police and security services had taken a hammering for not spotting and preventing the London tube bombings in which 52 civilians died. One day before Menezes' death there was an attempt to set off four more bombs on the tube. Menezes was sadly incorrectly identified as one of the 21 July would be bombers and shot in a completely botched operation. Yes the police and security services scre*wed up big time, but they were under a massive amount of pressure. There were a number of widely conflicting accounts of what happened, with some of these coming from witnesses who were not from the police or security services.

 

[horsinabout]

I don't get how the tragic case of Menezes links to what I wrote? You do remember what led up to Menezes' death? Two weeks before his shooting the police and security services had taken a hammering for not spotting and preventing the London tube bombings in which 52 civilians died. One day before Menezes' death there was an attempt to set off four more bombs on the tube. Menezes was sadly incorrectly identified as one of the 21 July would be bombers and shot in a completely botched operation. Yes the police and security services scre*wed up big time, but they were under a massive amount of pressure. There were a number of widely conflicting accounts of what happened, with some of these coming from witnesses who were not from the police or security services.

All correct except you forgot to add the "shoot to kill" policy by the government, that was introduced the day after the underground bombings. This leading to an innocent being killed with mistaken identity.

 

[wansteadimp]

All correct except you forgot to add the "shoot to kill" policy by the government, that was introduced the day after the underground bombings. This leading to an innocent being killed with mistaken identity.

And then tried to lie about the circumstances, jumping barriers etc

 

[ultimobici]

And then tried to lie about the circumstances, jumping barriers etc

Whilst not condoning the actions of the Met that day and in the aftermath, it is the exception not the rule with our police. About as far from the Stasi as you could get and a damned sight more subtle than the type of policing we see in the US.

 

[JimmyFingers]

And all of this relates to doping how, or are we just continuing to dress the UK as some sort of police state for no other reason that to have a pop at the UK?