A thread on Indurain's doping

[Indurain]

Okay, so Indurain really improved due to EPO. No question there. Greg Lemond did say that it helps the larger riders more than the smaller ones due to more blood or something to that effect.

But how much of Indurain's improvement can be put to the 8kg's or so that he lost in body weight. Could that have accounted for his remarkable 1990 result and perhaps even 1991. I think it is possible. Had he lost that 8kg's earlier in 89, could he have been fighting it out with Fignon and Lemond.

I think it is a bit unfair for people to write him off as a future GC winner when he was a domestique and a loyal good one at that and he was carrying about 8kg's more than when he was actually winning the tour.

 

[Albatros]

Probably it has been mentioned but I say it just in case. Jose Maria Garcia, the most famous sport journalist at the time in Spain, asked Indurain if he had ever doped, but begged him not to anwser unless Indurain said the truth.

Indurain response was, next question, please.

Of course he doped, like every Tour winner since the time they carried the spare wheel on their backs.

 

[AngusW]

Probably it has been mentioned but I say it just in case. Jose Maria Garcia, the most famous sport journalist at the time in Spain, asked Indurain if he had ever doped, but begged him not to anwser unless Indurain said the truth.

Indurain response was, next question, please.

Of course he doped, like every Tour winner since the time they carried the spare wheel on their backs.

Generally, Tour riders did not carry spare wheels on their backs. They did carry spare tyres on their backs. After breaking 11 spokes on one wheel Leon Scieur got a replacement wheel but had to carry the damaged wheel on his back during a stage of the 1921 Tour (for 300km apparently) but that was because the rules required that he finished the stage with all the equipment he started with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Scieur

 

[Albatros]

I meant tyres. Didn't know that poor fellow had to curry his bike though.

 

[Paco_P]

you need to look back at previous posts to see how this compares to his cohort - Tour winners from the early 80s to his first win. Indurain does not show a "steady" progression compared to this group. His first 5 Tours are not indicative of a future dominant grand tour rider. The standard explanation is that he was too heavy to do well in the mountains but in the late 80s found new form through reduced weight thanks to Conconi's mentoring. That sounds a lot like the explanation about another dominant grand tour winner who also was nowhere his early Tours...

Perhaps that "cohort" were, for cultural reasons, very focused on the Tour de France in particular, while Indurain, for cultural reasons, was riding in lots of races in places like Spain, and was not focused primarily on the Tour, where he served as a domestique. The Tour de France is not the only race.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Perhaps that "cohort" were, for cultural reasons, very focused on the Tour de France in particular, while Indurain, for cultural reasons, was riding in lots of races in places like Spain, and was not focused primarily on the Tour, where he served as a domestique. The Tour de France is not the only race.

I would suggest you have a deeper look at the results for that time period. Hinault did the Giro-Tour double twice. Fignon nearly did it twice. Lemond finished 3rd and 4th at the Giro in 1985 and 1986 while getting 2nd and 1st at the Tour those years. Roche.... Giro-Tour-Worlds in 1987. Delgado... won the 1985 Vuelta and top 10'd at the Tour... 7th at the Giro in 1988 and 1st at the Tour. In 1989, he won the Vuelta and got 3rd in the Tour.

I don't think these guys were as focussed on the Tour as you are suggesting.

For a future 7-time GT champion, I would have expected to see Indurain (outside of the Tour) lighting it up, and absolutely destroying lesser men in lesser races. His results don't really reflect that.

 

[Paco_P]

I would suggest you have a deeper look at the results for that time period. Hinault did the Giro-Tour double twice. Fignon nearly did it twice. Lemond finished 3rd and 4th at the Giro in 1985 and 1986 while getting 2nd and 1st at the Tour those years. Roche.... Giro-Tour-Worlds in 1987. Delgado... won the 1985 Vuelta and top 10'd at the Tour... 7th at the Giro in 1988 and 1st at the Tour. In 1989, he won the Vuelta and got 3rd in the Tour.

I don't think these guys were as focussed on the Tour as you are suggesting.

For a future 7-time GT champion, I would have expected to see Indurain (outside of the Tour) lighting it up, and absolutely destroying lesser men in lesser races. His results don't really reflect that.

Point taken. I don't remember the details from that era, because I was quite small back then ... Indurain also won the Giro, etc... My question was really whether at the time he was developing, when Spain was still just barely out of the dark ages of dictatorship, he and his cohort had the same approach to competition as those from (the rest of) Europe. In particular, did he have the same opportunities to compete as did some of the other contemporary competitors for big tours? I suppose you are saying he did.

 

[ultimobici]

I would suggest you have a deeper look at the results for that time period. Hinault did the Giro-Tour double twice. Fignon nearly did it twice. Lemond finished 3rd and 4th at the Giro in 1985 and 1986 while getting 2nd and 1st at the Tour those years. Roche.... Giro-Tour-Worlds in 1987. Delgado... won the 1985 Vuelta and top 10'd at the Tour... 7th at the Giro in 1988 and 1st at the Tour. In 1989, he won the Vuelta and got 3rd in the Tour.

I don't think these guys were as focussed on the Tour as you are suggesting.

For a future 7-time GT champion, I would have expected to see Indurain (outside of the Tour) lighting it up, and absolutely destroying lesser men in lesser races. His results don't really reflect that.

I think you need to look a little harder at the dynamics of the situation Indurain found himself in for much of his early career. He was 4 years younger than Pedro Delgado who had already shown his potential in the Tour & Vuelta. Indurain was firmly in a supporting role to Delgado all the way up until 1989/90.

However, when you look at his path to the top in more detail the signs are there. His first pro victory came a week after turning pro in the Tour de L'Avenir, he was the youngest Vuelta leader ever at 20 and by 1991 had also won Paris Nice as well as two Pyrenean mountain stages to boot. When his 89 & 90 Tours are viewed in the context of an faithful lieutenant to Delgado one sees a very different rider in prospect.

Indurain's misfortune is that his reign coincided almost exactly with the heyday of EPO. WHile I don't doubt he "took care of himself", I get the impression from the way he was deposed that he was cautious in his methods compared to others who did come from virtually nowhere (Riis).

 

[ultimobici]

Just found this analysis from the Kennedy Brothers Tour/Giro annual for 1989 regarding Indurain's stage victory in Cauterets.

Bear in mind that this was written and printed before the year was out. No one knew what was in store 2 years later.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I think you need to look a little harder at the dynamics of the situation Indurain found himself in for much of his early career. He was 4 years younger than Pedro Delgado who had already shown his potential in the Tour & Vuelta. Indurain was firmly in a supporting role to Delgado all the way up until 1989/90.

However, when you look at his path to the top in more detail the signs are there. His first pro victory came a week after turning pro in the Tour de L'Avenir, he was the youngest Vuelta leader ever at 20 and by 1991 had also won Paris Nice as well as two Pyrenean mountain stages to boot. When his 89 & 90 Tours are viewed in the context of an faithful lieutenant to Delgado one sees a very different rider in prospect.

Indurain's misfortune is that his reign coincided almost exactly with the heyday of EPO. WHile I don't doubt he "took care of himself", I get the impression from the way he was deposed that he was cautious in his methods compared to others who did come from virtually nowhere (Riis).

The dynamic that Indurain found himself in is not unique to him. Many other riders have found their ways on to teams with older, established stars and have been able to showcase their talent while working for the established star. The 1985 and 1986 La Vie Claire teams come to mind. Perhaps Indurain was the most faithful lieutenant there ever was, but to me that whispers mythology.

I agree that Indurain showed a certain degree of class early on, but nothing that suggested he'd break the record for consecutive Tour wins. He isn't a cart horse turned thorough-bread, the likes of the mid-to-late 90's dopers... I see him more as a talented rider turned great by EPO - but I think he helped established where the gills were in relation to doping in 1992, and guys like Riis where simply willing to move them further - to the point where a guy like Riis could win the Tour de France.

 

[ultimobici]

The dynamic that Indurain found himself in is not unique to him. Many other riders have found their ways on to teams with older, established stars and have been able to showcase their talent while working for the established star. The 1985 and 1986 La Vie Claire teams come to mind. Perhaps Indurain was the most faithful lieutenant there ever was, but to me that whispers mythology.

I agree that Indurain showed a certain degree of class early on, but nothing that suggested he'd break the record for consecutive Tour wins. He isn't a cart horse turned thorough-bread, the likes of the mid-to-late 90's dopers... I see him more as a talented rider turned great by EPO - but I think he helped established where the gills were in relation to doping in 1992, and guys like Riis where simply willing to move them further - to the point where a guy like Riis could win the Tour de France.

When Lemond joined La Vie Claire he was not a new pro. Also when Guimard & Hinault signed him for Renault he was already touted as a star. Fignon was by virtue of his personality going to impose himself and took full advantage of Hinault's absence in 83 effectively forcing Hinault's departure.
Indurain, on the other hand, with his super modest attitude was less likely to "impose" himself.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

When Lemond joined La Vie Claire he was not a new pro. Also when Guimard & Hinault signed him for Renault he was already touted as a star. Fignon was by virtue of his personality going to impose himself and took full advantage of Hinault's absence in 83 effectively forcing Hinault's departure.
Indurain, on the other hand, with his super modest attitude was less likely to "impose" himself.

Hmm, I wasn't referring to Lemond or Fignon. I was referring to Bauer (10th @ 85 Tour), and Hampsten (4th @ 86 Tour). I don't think either were particularly imposing... though I'm not sure if either were technically neo pros having turned pro (I think) part way through year prior to the year in question.

 

[ultimobici]

Hmm, I wasn't referring to Lemond or Fignon. I was referring to Bauer (10th @ 85 Tour), and Hampsten (4th @ 86 Tour). I don't think either were particularly imposing... though I'm not sure if either were technically neo pros having turned pro (I think) part way through year prior to the year in question.

Pretty much every rider on La Vie Claire was a known quantity by the time they pulled on a Mondrian jersey.
Andersen was a 5th year pro
Bauer won Silver in the 84 Olympic Road Race
Bérard was a 4th year pro
Bernard was the 83 French Amateur Champion
Chevallier was a 5th year pro
Demgen was a loaner from Levis
Dubois was a Neo Pro
Etc etc

Hampsten was a Giro stage winner from 1985 while riding the event as an guest pro on 7-11, having signed a one month contract to ride the Giro.

To compare the situation riders from the Americas & Australia found themselves in with that of a Spanish professional on a domestic team is nonsensical. They had to be much more overt to get noticed, especially on French teams; even one as modern as LVC.

Indurain was on the team of Perico, who at the time was cycling royalty in Spain. For Indurain to shine to the degree you expect he'd have had to mount a coup!

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Pretty much every rider on La Vie Claire was a known quantity by the time they pulled on a Mondrian jersey.
Andersen was a 5th year pro
Bauer won Silver in the 84 Olympic Road Race
Bérard was a 4th year pro
Bernard was the 83 French Amateur Champion
Chevallier was a 5th year pro
Demgen was a loaner from Levis
Dubois was a Neo Pro
Etc etc

Hampsten was a Giro stage winner from 1985 while riding the event as an guest pro on 7-11, having signed a one month contract to ride the Giro.

To compare the situation riders from the Americas & Australia found themselves in with that of a Spanish professional on a domestic team is nonsensical. They had to be much more overt to get noticed, especially on French teams; even one as modern as LVC.

Indurain was on the team of Perico, who at the time was cycling royalty in Spain. For Indurain to shine to the degree you expect he'd have had to mount a coup!

Indurain turned pro with Reynolds in September of 1984. Delgado rode for Seat-Orbea in 1985, and PDM in 1986 and 1987. So, Indurain would have been on the team of Perico for about a month's worth of racing until 1988.

 

[ultimobici]

Indurain turned pro with Reynolds in September of 1984. Delgado rode for Seat-Orbea in 1985, and PDM in 1986 and 1987. So, Indurain would have been on the team of Perico for about a month's worth of racing until 1988.

Oops! My bad!

Nevertheless, I think you're selling him a little short. His first full season shows he was no slouch in major races.

His first taste of the Tour came in 85 having briefly led the Vuelta. It was not unusual then for riders in their first couple of seasons to ride only part of the Tour or steer away from it entirely until they were stronger. So his first forays aren't that inactive either way. His first finish was in 87, finishing just inside the top 100 a few minutes down on one Steve Bauer. He was 23. Sure, Fignon & Hinault won much earlier, Lemond podiumed at the same age, but Indurain's ascent was steady & quiet. But to say it was not heralded is to blind oneself to back to back Paris Nice victories, a Tour de L'Avenir & two, yes two mountain stages.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Oops! My bad!

Nevertheless, I think you're selling him a little short. His first full season shows he was no slouch in major races.

His first taste of the Tour came in 85 having briefly led the Vuelta. It was not unusual then for riders in their first couple of seasons to ride only part of the Tour or steer away from it entirely until they were stronger. So his first forays aren't that inactive either way. His first finish was in 87, finishing just inside the top 100 a few minutes down on one Steve Bauer. He was 23. Sure, Fignon & Hinault won much earlier, Lemond podiumed at the same age, but Indurain's ascent was steady & quiet. But to say it was not heralded is to blind oneself to back to back Paris Nice victories, a Tour de L'Avenir & two, yes two mountain stages.

I'm not suggesting he was a slouch. I'm not suggesting he was not heralded... what I am saying is his results - and grand tours in particular - prior to the dawn of the EPO age do not suggest in any way, shape or form that he was going to break the record for consecutive TdF victories and score a back to back Giro-Tour double.

Indurain had entered 11 grand tours by the time he cracked the top 20 in any of them. Contrast that against a much lesser champion like Marco Giovannetti who had 4 top 10's at the Giro between 1986 and 1989.... (he and Mig turned pro at roughly the same time, I believe).

Oh, and Bauer's similar Tour result to Indurain in 1987 came on the heels of a Top 10 at the Giro that year.

Indurain's progression, in my opinion, has more similarities with that of Bugno and Rominger. They were all very good riders, but once the EPO age hit... well, they took off.

 

[Caruut]

Plus super-domestiques who later turn into stars are the kind of guys who stick with their leader all day, protecting him until the big final attacks. If you stick around that long, you finish quite well. Think Rolland this year.

Seems clear to me that there was a big change in what Indurain was capable of doing around the time EPO came to the fore. I find it challenging to believe that this is a coincidence.

 

[hrotha]

The problem is that Indurain was already climbing very well in 1989, and some believe he could have contender the GC of the 1990 Tour if given free rein, so if his rise was caused solely or mostly by EPO he would have to have been one of the pioneers in the peloton. That's of course always a possibility (someone has to be the pioneer, and a guy who had been working with Conconi is as good a candidate as any), but then it'd be hard to explain why his climbing only got better in 1994, 1995 and 1996.

 

[Caruut]

The problem is that Indurain was already climbing very well in 1989, and some believe he could have contender the GC of the 1990 Tour if given free rein, so if his rise was caused solely or mostly by EPO he would have to have been one of the pioneers in the peloton. That's of course always a possibility (someone has to be the pioneer, and a guy who had been working with Conconi is as good a candidate as any), but then it'd be hard to explain why his climbing only got better in 1994, 1995 and 1996.

Yeah, but in 1989 he finished 17th, which put him above the GC time of the best rider on over half of the teams that race. That's a big jump from all of his previous results.

 

[SirLes]

My hunch is that he was identified as being an ideal candidate to experiment on and was also identified as someone who would benefit from blood doping.

He had an incredible engine but was too large to be an GC contender. ie too much muscle for the body to be ale to supply sufficent oxygen. If that limiting factor is addressed.....

Also someone as quiet, humble (and obedient?) would be unlikely to make too much "noise", excess demands or go off on his own.

No evidence for it but if I was Conconi, he'd have been my choice.

 

[ultimobici]

Yeah, but in 1989 he finished 17th, which put him above the GC time of the best rider on over half of the teams that race. That's a big jump from all of his previous results.

So what do you attribute the improvement to, given that EPO wasn't around in the peloton until 91?

 

[Caruut]

So what do you attribute the improvement to, given that EPO wasn't around in the peloton until 91?

Well, EPO was approved by USFDA in 1989. Maybe he was an early adopter in smaller quantities. He made 2 large steps, from relative obscurity to super-domestique (top 20 Tour and top 10 Vuelta) and then from super-domestique to multiple GT winner. The first occurred when EPO was first produced, the second when it really hit cycling.

 

[ultimobici]

Well, EPO was approved by USFDA in 1989. Maybe he was an early adopter in smaller quantities. He made 2 large steps, from relative obscurity to super-domestique (top 20 Tour and top 10 Vuelta) and then from super-domestique to multiple GT winner. The first occurred when EPO was first produced, the second when it really hit cycling.

If one takes that view it requires a massive leap. EPO was only approved by the FDA in 89 yet a relatively obscure Spanish pro was the first to use it? Pull the other one! Indurain had modest results initially but he turned pro at 20 in an era when many pros were simply cannon-fodder and were it able to ease their way into the swing of things. Sean Kelly turned pro in 76 but took a couple of years to get that elusive first victory. He wasn't exactly prolific until 1980/81. Strangely about the same point of his career as indurain's blossoming. Maybe that was down Tia new variety of speed or cortisone?

 

[ultimobici]

Another thing overlooked is the 1986 Tour de L'Avenir.

 

[Cloxxki]

A sports pharmacist who spotted EPO already in the mid-80's while in trials as the end of fairplay if not held out of sports, told me that he expects the first EPO cheaters to be found among the '88 Olympics medallists.
Which doper waits for a med to be approved, of they can get their hands on it sooner? Think of HemAssist thing. It's not proven, but most of us accept that it may well have been as reported.

Also, let's not forget that while blood doping was maybe not universal in the 80's, but at least quite established among those who swung that way. When EPO came to the game, juggling blood bags and taking the (well established) risks, must have seemed like such a waste of time and resources.
So 80's...
Plus, with EPO the ceiling of performance gain was clearly higher, and easier to reach. Also, it may have seemed safer, although when it proved to work well and take a few young casualties, that was considered part of the game. Who really stayed away from it, all in total? A Frenchman and an American. Most others don't want to talk about it.