Actovegin--Again

[Hugh Januss]

"used to oxygenate the blood" came from the Manzano piece....

I will take you at your word that Actovegin can be "used in conjunction with EPO and transfusions to make the blood more "slippery"".

But that sure seems like a basturdized use of a wonderful drug.
I would think Tiger's Doc was using it correctly - to help Tiger heal faster/better.
It could be beneficial to riders too if used correctly.

Aren't you looking at this like the parent who believes the kid with chocolate on his face who says "I didn't do it I can't even reach the cookie bowl" over his brother who says "oh yeah, we all know how to push the chair over and climb on the counter"?

 

[Polish]

Aren't you looking at this like the parent who believes the kid with chocolate on his face who says "I didn't do it I can't even reach the cookie bowl" over his brother who says "oh yeah, we all know how to push the chair over and climb on the counter"?

Are you saying that Tiger's Doc was using Actovegin to give Tiger
more efficient and slippery EPO transfusions?

Do you think Tiger was given Actovegin injections? What for?

 

[Kennf1]

"used to oxygenate the blood" came from the Manzano piece....

I will take you at your word that Actovegin can be "used in conjunction with EPO and transfusions to make the blood more "slippery"".

But that sure seems like a basturdized use of a wonderful drug.
I would think Tiger's Doc was using it correctly - to help Tiger heal faster/better.
It could be beneficial to riders too if used correctly.

Well first, the only thing that has been admitted to with Tiger is the platelet-rich plasma injection in his knee.

Second, why do you belief the bovine blood extract is a "wonderful drug?"

 

[Hugh Januss]

Are you saying that Tiger's Doc was using Actovegin to give Tiger
more efficient and slippery EPO transfusions?

Do you think Tiger was given Actovegin injections? What for?

I was speaking to the cycling connection since it is a cycling forum.

 

[Kennf1]

More information coming out about the initial seizure at the border, and the extent to which the doctor's assistant rolled over on him:

"Inside the car, the officers found 20 vials and 76 ampules of drugs that included human growth hormone and foreign labeled homeopathic drugs, according to the criminal complaint. The officers also found 111 syringes, an ultrasound computer, several documents, a Macintosh computer and a global positioning system. At that point, the authorities alerted agents from the Food and Drug Administration and a smuggling investigation into Catalano began.

The document says that Catalano was advised of her right to remain silent but waived it and agreed to speak with authorities. She told agents that she knew she was bringing illegal substances into the United States and was doing it on behalf of her employer."

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/sports/16doctor.html?_r=1&em

 

[Polish]

Well first, the only thing that has been admitted to with Tiger is the platelet-rich plasma injection in his knee.

Second, why do you belief the bovine blood extract is a "wonderful drug?"

Hey, bovine meat extract makes for "wonderful cheezburgers",
why can't bovine blood extract make "wonderful drugs"?

Seriously, EPO or Actovegin are "Wonder Drugs" for their medical benefits.
Just because WADA bans them does not diminish THAT wonder.

Actovegin used correctly, combined with platelet-rich plasma injection in the knee, would be the best cure for Tiger. But Tiger is busted if he uses the Actovegin.

Kind of like beestings and cortisone injections...

 

[Race Radio]

Actovegin used correctly, combined with platelet-rich plasma injection in the knee, would be the best cure for Tiger. But Tiger is busted if he uses the Actovegin.

Do you have a link to support this or did you just invent it?

So far there is no evidence that Tiger was using it, or would need to use it.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm sensing a pattern here.

BTW, the doctor isn't "linked" to HGH -- he was caught crossing the US-CAN border with it in his bag. And with Actovegin, which is banned by WADA. Tiger going to see him for his knee is a little bit like going to see Ferrari for "training plans," don't you think?

Ha. I thought you'd pick up on that. To clarify, the Dr was not caught at the border, his assistant was. Either way, there is an obvious link and the good doctor is charged with selling an unapproved drug, conspiracy to import an unapproved drug, conspiracy to export a drug and smuggling goods into Canada.

Yes, I think the link between Tiger and the doping doc is suspicious. Not good at all. And worthy of examination by the media. I just don't like the guy from the LA Times saying he suspected it all along, but didn't want to say anything, but now is the time because this doctor is dirty and if Tiger will cheat on his wife he'll cheat at everything else. Like I wrote, do the research, expose him when you get proof, just don't smear the guy and say you knew all along. Ok, I'm off topic as usual.

 

[Polish]

Do you have a link to support this or did you just invent it?

So far there is no evidence that Tiger was using it, or would need to use it.

Actovegin is made to help heal booboos/wounds.
Blood-spinning same thing. Blood-spinning is WADA legal.
Just google it RR...

 

[red_flanders]

I will take you at your word that Actovegin can be "used in conjunction with EPO and transfusions to make the blood more "slippery"".

But that sure seems like a basturdized use of a wonderful drug.

Welcome to cycling.

 

[red_flanders]

Actovegin is made to help heal booboos/wounds.
Blood-spinning same thing. Blood-spinning is WADA legal.
Just google it RR...

I'm not sure anyone is debating that there are or may be legitimate uses for certain drugs and/or techniques.

I think you'll find anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty wondering why Postal used such elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods to get rid of this supposedly innocuous drug.

It's not sanctionable, we all agree. If you're arguing the most likely use by Postal was to repair skinned knees, I'm going to have to hit you with the ol'...

 

[Polish]

I'm not sure anyone is debating that there are or may be legitimate uses for certain drugs and/or techniques.

You are not sure? Well, let me assure you that someone DID ask why
Actovegin is considered a wonder drug

I think you'll find anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty wondering why Postal used such elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods to get rid of this supposedly innocuous drug.
]

You will also find people wearing tin-foil hats imagining "elaborate cloak-and-
dagger midnight disposal methods".

 

[red_flanders]

You are not sure? Well, let me assure you that someone DID ask why
Actovegin is considered a wonder drug

Great. We agree that there are legit (probably) uses. Not sure we agree that there are illegit uses, but it's glaringly obvious there are.

You will also find people wearing tin-foil hats imagining "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods".

You mean the news crew who followed them for miles in the middle of the night and then watched them dispose of bags/syringes/actovegin (and recovered it) are the tin-foil hat brigade? It's funny, but that fact isn't even in question--not even by the then Postal team.

 

[Polish]

You mean the news crew who followed them for miles in the middle of the night and then watched them dispose of bags/syringes/actovegin (and recovered it) are the tin-foil hat brigade? It's funny, but that fact isn't even in question--not even by the then Postal team.

That is not even CLOSE to an "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods" lol. "Bags/syringes/actovegin" were all legal duh.

The TRUE "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal method"...the
USPS guys who were disposing the EPO EVIDENCE in a secret place while
the TV Crew followed the Actovegin crew.

Welcome to Pro Cycling doper noob

 

[Race Radio]

.
Blood-spinning same thing. Blood-spinning is WADA legal.

Could you explain this? What is blood spinning?

 

[Polish]

Could you explain this? What is blood spinning?

RR, it is in the link from the Original Post:

"Although there is no suggestion that Tiger Woods was given Actovegin or any other unapproved or banned drug, he did avail himself of Galea’s cutting-edge injury-healing procedure called platelet-rich plasma therapy, popularly known as blood-spinning.

The technique involves taking blood from the patient and spinning it in a centrifuge to increase the concentration of red platelets before re-injecting into the patient’s injured ligament, tendon or muscle to speed the rate of healing.

The procedure is legal under WADA rules although in 2010 it will be allowed only for injections into ligaments and tendons, not muscles."

 

[filipo]

Ha. I thought you'd pick up on that. To clarify, the Dr was not caught at the border, his assistant was. Either way, there is an obvious link and the good doctor is charged with selling an unapproved drug, conspiracy to import an unapproved drug, conspiracy to export a drug and smuggling goods into Canada.

Ah so! My mistake.

Yes, I think the link between Tiger and the doping doc is suspicious. Not good at all. And worthy of examination by the media. I just don't like the guy from the LA Times saying he suspected it all along, but didn't want to say anything, but now is the time because this doctor is dirty and if Tiger will cheat on his wife he'll cheat at everything else. Like I wrote, do the research, expose him when you get proof, just don't smear the guy and say you knew all along. Ok, I'm off topic as usual.

Off-topic, but I can grok this. The "I could see it coming but I didn't tell you about it" is pretty weak. But the guy is a columnist, not a reporter, so he's not really built for research, que no.

 

[Race Radio]

RR, it is in the link from the Original Post:

"Although there is no suggestion that Tiger Woods was given Actovegin or any other unapproved or banned drug, he did avail himself of Galea’s cutting-edge injury-healing procedure called platelet-rich plasma therapy, popularly known as blood-spinning.

The technique involves taking blood from the patient and spinning it in a centrifuge to increase the concentration of red platelets before re-injecting into the patient’s injured ligament, tendon or muscle to speed the rate of healing.

The procedure is legal under WADA rules although in 2010 it will be allowed only for injections into ligaments and tendons, not muscles."

And this has what to do with Actovigen? Most PED's have multiple uses. Just because re-injecting platelets into ligaments is approved does not mean using cow blood extract is.

The fact remains that scores of dopers have used Actovigen for performance enhancement. To pretend that USPS was just using it for road rash is absurd.

 

[red_flanders]

That is not even CLOSE to an "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods" lol. "Bags/syringes/actovegin" were all legal duh.

The TRUE "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal method"...the
USPS guys who were disposing the EPO EVIDENCE in a secret place while
the TV Crew followed the Actovegin crew.

Welcome to Pro Cycling doper noob

Wow. Just wow.

Whatever gets you through the day. Enjoy the races.

 

[filipo]

That is not even CLOSE to an "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal methods" lol. "Bags/syringes/actovegin" were all legal duh.

The TRUE "elaborate cloak-and-dagger midnight disposal method"...the
USPS guys who were disposing the EPO EVIDENCE in a secret place while
the TV Crew followed the Actovegin crew.

Welcome to Pro Cycling doper noob

Please make it stop.

 

[BroDeal]

The blind covering for Woods on American TV is rather funny because it is so naive. I watched Gerald Posner explain away Tiger's involvement by saying the blood spinning therapy part of the doc's business was completely separate from the HGH part of his business. It is interesting because Posner is no dummy. He wrote the definitive book debunking the various JFK assasination conspiracy theories.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Actovegin is made to help heal booboos/wounds.
Blood-spinning same thing. Blood-spinning is WADA legal.
Just google it RR...

However, using, selling or importing Actovegin is illegal in the States. (also googleable)
Which is why the feds are involved and you are talking from between your buttocks, once again.

 

[Polish]

However, using, selling or importing Actovegin is illegal in the States. (also googleable)
Which is why the feds are involved and you are talking from between your buttocks, once again.

According to WebMD, Actovegin is not FDA approved, although it is still
legal in Europe.
http://www.webmd.com/news/20091216/faq-on-actovegin

Of course, it WAS legal in France when the USPS team had some...
http://www.bikemagic.com/event-news/french-investigation-into-us-postal-team-dropped/2849.html

However, according to WebMD, it is not very effective:

"Wadler says, in 2001 the International Olympic Committee
removed it from the banned list pending further research.

Wadler says he doesn't think the drug is widely used by athletes,
noting that many other drugs work better."

IF it turns out Lance was part of the USPS team using Actovegin,
and IF he was using it for "performence enhancement" (2 big IFs),
he should just admit it. No big deal - it was legal (and ineffective)
at the time USPS had some.

Lance is a "colourful" wacky guy, always pushing the limit on using
legal stuff like oxygen tents and actovegin to gain an edge.

Not like that wussy hissy moran Ricco using CERA.
WaaWaa, he had to spend a night in jail. Seriously, his Mom had
to pick him up after the French kicked him out. WaaWaa

 

[Mellow Velo]

I thought this thread was in relation to Woods and US law?
Anyhow, I'd recommend Lance admits to using it. Good idea. That will bring the FBI around, to check out his shower.

The Canadians also don't approve......obviously.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga...ug=ap-canadiandoctor-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns

 

[Kennf1]

IF it turns out Lance was part of the USPS team using Actovegin,
and IF he was using it for "performence enhancement" (2 big IFs),
he should just admit it. No big deal - it was legal (and ineffective)
at the time USPS had some.

A little late for that, since he denied even knowing what it was, and Gorski said it was intended (but never actually) to be used to treat road rash.
And again, I don't think anyone is claiming it is a great oxygen carrying-enhancer, by itself.

But back to Dr. Galea, I doubt if any athletes will ultimately get tagged for HGH. If they do, it will be from the assistant's testimony, not the doctor's. In the meantime, he is certainly on every sports agent's do-not-call list, which will put a significant temporary dent in his income.