Adam Hansen

[Marmot]

blackcat, I don't always understand your posts, but I always enjoy reading them, especially when you string a couple of quite thoughtful paragraphs together like in some of the recent posts in this thread.

 

[nayr497]

Seems like he's at least on hallucinogens if he's riding 3 GTs a year. And, I heard him talking about doing 3-4 day road rides with a pal, sleep on the side of the road...that doesn't sound like much fun.

 

[HiroAntagonist]

I'm currently recovering from a fractured sternum and three ribs... The sternum is definitely the least painful. Injuries were incurred overcooking a corner and landing torso to bar ends. Just my two cents.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

But it has its limitations too, and they are quite obvious: namely, that there is no longer any point discussing any particulars. Any exercise in reasoning or discussion of evidence in any event is naturally reduced to one proposition: "The peloton is 100% dirty." Even if that is a true proposition - which I think it may well be - it's never really established. It's more just assumed and asserted in a way which denies any possible grounds to dissent.

conceded/ and agree.

my rule of thumb, is the assumption that a motoman recovery doping (insulin/hgh/blood/testo) with the preparation increase-theshold doping, offers in vicinity of 15% watts at threshold in the third week, in comparison to track&field Olympic finals and swimming Olympic finals differentials which are in vicinity of p'raps a single percent, for these athletes who are all aways off the bell curve.

ofcourse, usually there are only a few sections of stages where the GC riders will be au bloc (or near threshold) contesting the win, ~3-4 finishing ascents, plus 2 chronos. Ofcourse, a team like USPS or Sky will try to make all ascents close to threshold to make all climbs relevant for the GC riders and to decimate the peloton.

on the whole, listening to those shelled from the sport, like Kohl, Jaksche, even LAnce, it really requires a suspension of disbelief to buy this sport holus bolus. Its not an allegation of any individual rider's character. On an ethical or moral view, I think the doping concern is actually neutral on this judgement. Even when one deconstructs the disinformation (or lying), I think this can be seen as a neutral concern also.

I also know that my free-thought aint seeking to deprive an individual of his/her liberty and putting them in the clink, and my words will not impinge on their income. If they have such concern, their target should be cookson mcquaid and hein not me. And Armstrong, he took the income, the UCI took the boon of greater OLN revenues (not tv rights but metaphor for corporate america) thinking the American dollar was expanding the revenue base (without ever looking in the rearview and understanding Lemond's long-term effect on the sport's value on the continent, which was negligble), never appreciating that Armstrong and US pro sport culture, cycling was never gonna gain traction versus the 3 pro team sports, plus hockey, then individual sports like golf/tennis. cycling was never gonna make headway in this culture re-establishing an equilibrium where they had a cut of this market. UCI counted the dollars upfront, took the OLN tv monies and ran to the bank and spent them, took the new sponsors of div1 and div 2 and the Protour teams, and compromised the next decade with a new 1998 doping embroglio. Armstrong's boon to cycling was never owned by the sport for the medium or long-term, it left with the "personality". It was personality versus sport that recruited the crowd and revenues, and the UCI knew well he was a fraud. The UCI on behalf of the sport spent it up front, to the long-term detriment of the sport. There is the capitalism tension where the individual's incentive, comes into conflict with the greater good of their employer, closely married to long term versus short term prioritization.

Great postings!!

Just to add a thought...

Long term commitment requires (among other things) mutual consent.....

To make that happen you would need the majority of the peloton sacrificing their "here and now"

-as well as authorities sacrificing their "here and now"...

But how is that possible when there is only ONE "here and now"?

 

[mrhender]

It is much like humans burning up our planets ressources at a rate where nothing will be left for future generations...

It is the "here and now"... Sacrificing our "here and now" so that something will be left in the future is not natural to most of us....

So why should it be natural for cyclists to do so?

And one does not need to think long before deciding what is needed most.. ¨

So we can talk harsh on dopers, because then we need not face our own shortcomings which in fact are the same.. Just on a greater scale...

 

[the delgados]

Re:

i have no doubt, that Adam Hansen would have read this thread by now, but if zakeen comes by this thread from now, yo AH, this thread is less about an individual, and it is more a j'accuse on the peloton. Fans reach a point, where they are betrayed when they discover certain truths and the pundits and commentators maintain the myths that are parroted ad nauseam. hence, this is the backlash. The Clinic is the foment of the backlash

i think most who are anti-doping, are less anti-doping, than more anti beingliedtoandfeelinglikeyouareachump

when Liggett and others tell us about a new clean era, tell us that things have changed, yet power outputs on the final HC climb in the Queen stage has not changed, when like USPS, Sky lead a team of 6 onto the final HC climb on the Queen stage, when the peloton is still about 30 riders thick on stage 16 before the final HC ascent on the Queen stage after multiple HC passes, folks know it is BS. When JV tells us some bald faced lies, when riders like Ryder have been better riders when we are told they are now clean (versus when they were charging), and we are never told about the positive sanctions that were anonymous and under-the-carpet.

so the amorphous ragtag bunch called The Clinic 12, evolves, as was christened by JV. which will forever come back to haunt.

I've spent the past half-hour catching up with this thread, and it has been time well spent. But out of all the interesting replies, I need to point this one out. blackcat neatly summarized something I've been trying to say for years. Only issue I take is whether JV's comments will come back to haunt him. I tend to disagree, given the amount of times the sport of cycling has hit the re-start button over the years without consequence.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Re:

i have no doubt, that Adam Hansen would have read this thread by now, but if zakeen comes by this thread from now, yo AH, this thread is less about an individual, and it is more a j'accuse on the peloton. Fans reach a point, where they are betrayed when they discover certain truths and the pundits and commentators maintain the myths that are parroted ad nauseam. hence, this is the backlash. The Clinic is the foment of the backlash

i think most who are anti-doping, are less anti-doping, than more anti beingliedtoandfeelinglikeyouareachump

when Liggett and others tell us about a new clean era, tell us that things have changed, yet power outputs on the final HC climb in the Queen stage has not changed, when like USPS, Sky lead a team of 6 onto the final HC climb on the Queen stage, when the peloton is still about 30 riders thick on stage 16 before the final HC ascent on the Queen stage after multiple HC passes, folks know it is BS. When JV tells us some bald faced lies, when riders like Ryder have been better riders when we are told they are now clean (versus when they were charging), and we are never told about the positive sanctions that were anonymous and under-the-carpet.

so the amorphous ragtag bunch called The Clinic 12, evolves, as was christened by JV. which will forever come back to haunt.

If he does then hopefully he hears the positive, I can't see a guy who spends so much time on other non cycling matters in his season turning to doping. Wanted to hear the comments from others on here. I think I believe in the guy.

For the record, I rode (but didn't race) after cracking a couple of ribs, without any pain relief, but then again I did have more blubber than most on here perhaps.

 

[Benotti69]

A guy who spends so much time on other stuff cant train hard so needs to dope...........................

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

A guy who spends so much time on other stuff cant train hard so needs to dope...........................

I hope that's sarcasm

Hansen was famous around Cairns for his 240km loop that he did up to 2x3 times a week in preseason. He also used to ride down to Townsville occasionally (around 200kms), train a couple of days there and ride back.

He does his share of volume.

 

[MellowJohnny]

While on topic - what is Hansen's height and weight (roughly) - I've never been able to find out.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

If he does then hopefully he hears the positive, I can't see a guy who spends so much time on other non cycling matters in his season turning to doping. Wanted to hear the comments from others on here. I think I believe in the guy.

For the record, I rode (but didn't race) after cracking a couple of ribs, without any pain relief, but then again I did have more blubber than most on here perhaps.

well then, you misinterpreted my post. it was basically a defense of the individual. and contextualising it. and asking JV and everyone else, to interpret it thru this lens. i say it is actually NOT a character judgement, and my personal opion on the ethics of doping in sport are neutral (to stress, in terms of morality).

i believe in the guy, whether or not he is or is not (the subject of the thread). but how many in the forum actually know anyone in the pro peloton with significant intimacy? no ones significant other? but to stress, there are more important things than doping in cycling on which to judge a person, (no criticism to members in the thread, as this would be hypocrisy).

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Only issue I take is whether JV's comments will come back to haunt him. I tend to disagree, given the amount of times the sport of cycling has hit the re-start button over the years without consequence.

i was being quasi-facetious. i like to adopt the moniker The Clinic 12 (definitive noun, upper case) , and co-opt it like Tarantino mocking in broadside as return. no, i dont think he will really regret engaging individuals on here, but he will think it was his time wasted, an absurdist bemusing time on the internets, and most might do well to see doping with this disposition, not to be taken too seriously.

also, JV should realise, (that in my interpretation), nothing really changed over the course of the public "scandals" and brouhaha. What has changed, it the peloton tweaked a behaviour like game theory would suggest, and WADA and UCI's athlete biopassport was another figleaf to this end, the doping was just pushed further under the public radar.

When individual riders parrot the peloton and professional sport's talking points about anti-doping, they obviously dont believe this, but they are doing some ridiculous contradiction of self. Like Talansky supporting Armstrong, and TJ vG riding with Lance during the offseason. It is a great exposition in cognitive dissonance (if they believed what they were saying, which they manifesting cannot). I dont think they are compelled to such dilemma, as people have left cycling when they understood their preconceptions of the pro sphere were blurred in reality. But the fans could have a bit of empathy, at once, enable doping, suspension of disbelief, and secondly, compel the anti-doping rhetoric. So p'raps, the hypocrisy is also exposed on this side of the sport.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

While on topic - what is Hansen's height and weight (roughly) - I've never been able to find out.

think he is similar proportions to Jens, about 6'1". 158lbs (74kg). he looks a little less long than Jens, about 1 1/2 inch less tall, and about the same weight.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

It's more just assumed and asserted in a way which denies any possible grounds to dissent.

And yet the dissenters persist. Weird, innit?

Well, I don't think it is particularly weird - perhaps they are not convinced by the method of reasoning. I can see why they wouldn't be. It just takes one or two clean riders to render that universal proposition (i.e. that 100% of the pro peloton is dirty) too strong, unjustified, false and ultimately a mere dogmatic assertion.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Well, I don't think it is particularly weird - perhaps they are not convinced by the method of reasoning. I can see why they wouldn't be. It just takes one or two clean riders to render that universal proposition (i.e. that 100% of the pro peloton is dirty) too strong, unjustified, false and ultimately a mere dogmatic assertion.

but this is the aristotelian logic deconstruction of it, p'raps it is merely rule of thumb. feel free to critique this too. and in reality, The Clinic 12 (tongue firmly jested), uses such reasoning as the pornography rule. Aristotle talks of this too i think, i know it when i see it.

(yes, I am saying/agreeing in the flaws).

di luca said something equivalent, but not much of an authority to defer to. I think it is a hyperbole to say everyone is doping, but it also has a rhetorical truth in it. because even in debating societies, and university debating clubs, people will not engage with each other according to logic101 class.

and i know, you were adding to my position, the devil's advocate, the word of caution. we cannot possibly know. so i am just at once, supporting this, and giving The Clinic 12's side in response, exclamation mark

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

But it has its limitations too, and they are quite obvious: namely, that there is no longer any point discussing any particulars. Any exercise in reasoning or discussion of evidence in any event is naturally reduced to one proposition: "The peloton is 100% dirty." Even if that is a true proposition - which I think it may well be - it's never really established. It's more just assumed and asserted in a way which denies any possible grounds to dissent.

conceded/ and agree.

my rule of thumb, is the assumption that a motoman recovery doping (insulin/hgh/blood/testo) with the preparation increase-theshold doping, offers in vicinity of 15% watts at threshold in the third week, in comparison to track&field Olympic finals and swimming Olympic finals differentials which are in vicinity of p'raps a single percent, for these athletes who are all aways off the bell curve.

ofcourse, usually there are only a few sections of stages where the GC riders will be au bloc (or near threshold) contesting the win, ~3-4 finishing ascents, plus 2 chronos. Ofcourse, a team like USPS or Sky will try to make all ascents close to threshold to make all climbs relevant for the GC riders and to decimate the peloton.

on the whole, listening to those shelled from the sport, like Kohl, Jaksche, even LAnce, it really requires a suspension of disbelief to buy this sport holus bolus. Its not an allegation of any individual rider's character. On an ethical or moral view, I think the doping concern is actually neutral on this judgement. Even when one deconstructs the disinformation (or lying), I think this can be seen as a neutral concern also.

I also know that my free-thought aint seeking to deprive an individual of his/her liberty and putting them in the clink, and my words will not impinge on their income. If they have such concern, their target should be cookson mcquaid and hein not me. And Armstrong, he took the income, the UCI took the boon of greater OLN revenues (not tv rights but metaphor for corporate america) thinking the American dollar was expanding the revenue base (without ever looking in the rearview and understanding Lemond's long-term effect on the sport's value on the continent, which was negligble), never appreciating that Armstrong and US pro sport culture, cycling was never gonna gain traction versus the 3 pro team sports, plus hockey, then individual sports like golf/tennis. cycling was never gonna make headway in this culture re-establishing an equilibrium where they had a cut of this market. UCI counted the dollars upfront, took the OLN tv monies and ran to the bank and spent them, took the new sponsors of div1 and div 2 and the Protour teams, and compromised the next decade with a new 1998 doping embroglio. Armstrong's boon to cycling was never owned by the sport for the medium or long-term, it left with the "personality". It was personality versus sport that recruited the crowd and revenues, and the UCI knew well he was a fraud. The UCI on behalf of the sport spent it up front, to the long-term detriment of the sport. There is the capitalism tension where the individual's incentive, comes into conflict with the greater good of their employer, closely married to long term versus short term prioritization.

Well we're in mutual agreement on a lot of these points. I think the paradigm for watching cycling is sold to us on the basis of a kind of virtue ethics - the ancient Grecian/Stoic/Christian moral theory. This represents the outer - which is an utter fiction. "May the best/most noble/most courageous/most just man win."

On the inner level the governing logic is principally capitalistic. Not just capitalistic, but uber capitalistic. The cut throat intrigue between self-interest and collective interest has always been at the very heart of pro cycling - much of its greatness is found in that tension. But there is little resembling virtue in that sphere. It's not about virtue. It's mainly about consequences: wining, brand promotion, prize money, points, contracts. Related to that are the social norms and mores which are the practices embodied by everyone within the peloton circus. I agree that the question of morality takes place within this context - always a consequentialist kind of morality.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Well, I don't think it is particularly weird - perhaps they are not convinced by the method of reasoning. I can see why they wouldn't be. It just takes one or two clean riders to render that universal proposition (i.e. that 100% of the pro peloton is dirty) too strong, unjustified, false and ultimately a mere dogmatic assertion.

a practical example and exposition of this flawed reasoning, was in the This American Life team, who did the true crime podcast Serial, and the self-important, po-faced, navel-gazing narrator/director/journalist, and promising a revealing truth, without ever putting a caveat, or qualifying what was and was not possible to know about a criminal case from a dozen years or more, post the murder. And millions of downloads of the podcast. I wasted, well, not really, I downloaded it and spent about 6 hours listening to it and suppressing the laugh. The director could be a HBO scriptwriter, and not a very good one, but then again, I never put much stock in american cinema besides Coens/Jarmusch/PTanderson/Malick.

 

[StinkFist]

"I eat pain for Breakfast, bring it on"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-hansen-dislocates-shoulder-in-stage-2-crash

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

"I eat pain for Breakfast, bring it on"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-hansen-dislocates-shoulder-in-stage-2-crash

Hansen probably will finish too. I remember a few years ago he broke his collarbone early in one of the flat stages at the Tour, chased on and finished the stage - even pulling for Cavendish to take the stage win.

Voigt wishes he was half as hard.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

While on topic - what is Hansen's height and weight (roughly) - I've never been able to find out.

think he is similar proportions to Jens, about 6'1". 158lbs (74kg). he looks a little less long than Jens, about 1 1/2 inch less tall, and about the same weight.

In the past Hansen has said that he'd like to drop 4-5 kgs so he can go for harder stages and help Van Den Broeck more but team management prefer him to keep the weight on so he can work for Greipel as well.

 

[StinkFist]

I saw a video clip on YouTube where they interviewed Adam in a Hotel room during one of the GT's.....can't remember which one.
He came across as a super nice guy, very polite and articulate, which was a surprise as I had him pegged as a real meat-head gear masher.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

I saw a video clip on YouTube where they interviewed Adam in a Hotel room during one of the GT's.....can't remember which one.
He came across as a super nice guy, very polite and articulate, which was a surprise as I had him pegged as a real meat-head gear masher.

Yeah, he regularly describes himself as the "most European" of the Aussies in the pro peleton. Very smart guy, owns and directs a couple of small web based IT companies and earns far more from that than cycling.

 

[StinkFist]

Re: Re:

I saw a video clip on YouTube where they interviewed Adam in a Hotel room during one of the GT's.....can't remember which one.
He came across as a super nice guy, very polite and articulate, which was a surprise as I had him pegged as a real meat-head gear masher.

Yeah, he regularly describes himself as the "most European" of the Aussies in the pro peleton. Very smart guy, owns and directs a couple of small web based IT companies and earns far more from that than cycling.

Living The Dream! -

 

[Saint Unix]

Regardless of whether he dopes or not, I respect Adam Hansen. You don't do what he does without being a proper hardman and having a lot of work ethic, dope or no dope. If he is on the juice, he's very far down on the list of people who you could say have stolen a living by doping their way to cycling success.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Regardless of whether he dopes or not, I respect Adam Hansen. You don't do what he does without being a proper hardman and having a lot of work ethic, dope or no dope. If he is on the juice, he's very far down on the list of people who you could say have stolen a living by doping their way to cycling success.

I hear you and also respect him, but would disagree with your conclusions.

GT attendance makes a cyclist's career, and if he's doping, he definitely is stealing someone else's chance to ride and earn a living clean.

And make no mistake - everyone at the Tour has a strong work ethic and are mentally and physically strong.