Airing of grievances for pro cycling

[Ferminal]

Cancellara's spring and Cavendish's Tour?

2nd Milan-San Remo
1st E3
3rd Ronde
2nd P-R

Only Gilbert had a stronger spring. Obviously failing to win a monument means achievements wise FC is lacking somewhat, but he was still strong

 

[gregod]

Treatment of women's cycling.

...

+1

this is definitely a problem. women's races are shorter and often much more exciting than the men's. yet, the uci spends absolutely nothing promoting women's cycling. if it weren't for a few dedicated sponsors, it would disappear altogether.

 

[Panda Claws]

+1

this is definitely a problem. women's races are shorter and often much more exciting than the men's. yet, the uci spends absolutely nothing promoting women's cycling. if it weren't for a few dedicated sponsors, it would disappear altogether.

Frankly, at this point I could not care less about women's cycling. After all it can be all that much more exciting -----> Marianne Vos wins this, Vos wins that, etc...

 

[craig1985]

Too many horrible accidents and the Crostis cancellation.

It was a fiasco but emotions were running pretty high after Weylandt's death. But in saying that, everybody knew about the course well in advance and announced that safety barriers were to be put up, or the Crositis being taken off the route.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Frankly, at this point I could not care less about women's cycling. After all it can be all that much more exciting -----> Marianne Vos wins this, Vos wins that, etc...

Is that really any less exciting than "it's flat: Cavendish wins. it's hilly: Gilbert wins. it's mountainous: Contador wins"?

I mean, 2011 was a pretty garbage year for top level racing if we're honest. Paris-Nice may as well have been the Tour of Beijing, the hilly Classics were predictable and boring because Gilbert was so far ahead of everybody, the Worlds were farcically dull and were basically a Grand Tour flat stage in all but costume, the Giro, tragedy notwithstanding, was all over after one week, the Vuelta was all over after two, with all the biggest names underperforming, and the Tour didn't even bother starting until after two weeks. Romandie provided a dull parcours and the Dauphiné for the second year running was basically a time trial, then a bit of how's-your-father for the last couple of kilometres on the MTFs. País Vasco tried its hardest but came down to the TT because none of the final climbs were quite enough, and Catalunya was six sprints and an Andorra climb. Beijing was an embarrassment, California an unintentionally hilarious love-in.

Since races like Asturias can't really be considered 'top level', then really we only had a couple of great stages each in the GTs, Tirreno-Adriatico, Sanremo and the cobbled classics (Scheldeprijs excepted because that is a pathetic excuse for a race) to hold on to for good racing.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I see Bronzini's been talking rubbish.

Merit in an achievement lies in its difficulty.

For a tennis player nowadays to reach number 1, they have to be about 1 in 10,000,000.

For Fred Perry to reach the top, he had to be about 1 in 75,000. Thus without any recourse to improved training, nutrition or fitness, we can fairly assume that todays top players are much better than he was.

In the same way, significantly more men try to be top cyclists than women, so the filters which must be passed to achieve something are much much more selective.

So her Jersey is worth significantly less, whether she likes it or not.

 

[auscyclefan94]

+1

Women's cycling will never hold larger merit than men's cycling because simply men are better athletes and the competition is much deeper.

EDIT: Libertine, the outcomes of men's races vary a lot more than women's do. Surely you can see that?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

+1

Women's cycling will never hold larger merit than men's cycling because simply men are better athletes and the competition is much deeper.

EDIT: Libertine, the outcomes of men's races vary a lot more than women's do. Surely you can see that?

Yes, naturally. There is merit to WS's point that the depth of competition adds extra prestige to the men's jersey, of course there is.

But part of the reason for the lack of variety in the results of women's races is due to the lack of strength in depth of the field, but also because of the lack of finances a lot of the races stick to set formulae, which do not allow for the sheer variety of parcours, and therefore potential winners in men's cycling. Notwithstanding the money for the participants issue, which of course thins the field because only a handful at the top earn enough to be able to devote themselves full time, thus they are the ones that inevitably get the results and the earnings from that, and the cycle continues.

Vos wins everything because she is by far the biggest fish in a small pond. She dominates hilly races like Gilbert, but she doesn't dominate the sprints to the Cavendish level, nor the mountains to the Contador level.

I'm just saying, men's cycling was pretty predictable and dull in 2011, so let's not use those as arguments against women's cycling. The lack of professionalism, disappointing parcours, lack of depth in the péloton, poor coverage, fine. But the racing? How would we ever know? It's seldom ever shown, and when it is, it's the Worlds on a godawful parcours that a team of Jacky Durand, Vino, VDB, Txurruka, Hoogerland and Chavanel couldn't be bothered to attack on.

 

[Thomsena]

Is that really any less exciting than "it's flat: Cavendish wins. it's hilly: Gilbert wins. it's mountainous: Contador wins"?

I mean, 2011 was a pretty garbage year for top level racing if we're honest. Paris-Nice may as well have been the Tour of Beijing, the hilly Classics were predictable and boring because Gilbert was so far ahead of everybody, the Worlds were farcically dull and were basically a Grand Tour flat stage in all but costume, the Giro, tragedy notwithstanding, was all over after one week, the Vuelta was all over after two, with all the biggest names underperforming, and the Tour didn't even bother starting until after two weeks. Romandie provided a dull parcours and the Dauphiné for the second year running was basically a time trial, then a bit of how's-your-father for the last couple of kilometres on the MTFs. País Vasco tried its hardest but came down to the TT because none of the final climbs were quite enough, and Catalunya was six sprints and an Andorra climb. Beijing was an embarrassment, California an unintentionally hilarious love-in.

Since races like Asturias can't really be considered 'top level', then really we only had a couple of great stages each in the GTs, Tirreno-Adriatico, Sanremo and the cobbled classics (Scheldeprijs excepted because that is a pathetic excuse for a race) to hold on to for good racing.

Are you even a fan of this sport?...

 

[craig1985]

Despite the predictability of some results, we had plenty of surprising results or unexpected winners, like Cobo winning the Vuelta (along with the whole podium), Zaugg winning Lombardia (his first ever pro win), Nuyens winning RVV (finally making the step up from podium and top 10 finisher to winning the race) and van Summeren also winning Roubaix.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are you even a fan of this sport?...

Yes, I just don't think 2011 was a very good year for it (at the top level at least - plenty of good races at a lower level, like Asturias, Burgos, Ain, Utah and Belgium), with very few races living up to expectations, and far from the 'best year ever' some corners have spouted (Eurosport, I'm looking in your direction here).

A big shout-out to Milan-San Remo for massively exceeding expectation though.

 

[will10]

Yes, I just don't think 2011 was a very good year for it (at the top level at least - plenty of good races at a lower level, like Asturias, Burgos, Ain, Utah and Belgium), with very few races living up to expectations, and far from the 'best year ever' some corners have spouted (Eurosport, I'm looking in your direction here).

A big shout-out to Milan-San Remo for massively exceeding expectation though.

I think you're right on the money above LS, there's been much better years for pro cycling than 2011.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Something a little off track but on a Fox Sports poll they asked the question,"What was the biggest moment in sport of 2011?" Anyway, each option has their sport listed with the actual moment. Cycling seems to be listed as "Other Sport" but all the others aren't...Sigh!

Also, I hear too many times about how Cadel winning the Tour de France will be great "for the sport of the Tour de France". I feel like throwing my remote at the tv.

My agreivances are a little picky but I needed to vent!

 

[craig1985]

Something a little off track but on a Fox Sports poll they asked the question,"What was the biggest moment in sport of 2011?" Anyway, each option has their sport listed with the actual moment. Cycling seems to be listed as "Other Sport" but all the others aren't...Sigh!

Also, I hear too many times about how Cadel winning the Tour de France will be great "for the sport of the Tour de France". I feel like throwing my remote at the tv.

My agreivances are a little picky but I needed to vent!

You should know by now not to pay attention to mainstream Australian sports media when it comes to cycling, although people like Rob Arnold make me want to facepalm a lot. It's sad here that the Giro which is always better than the Tour receives scant coverage here.

 

[Altitude]

What exactly is the feats of strength? Just a wrestling match between Frank and George?

 

[The Hitch]

For a tennis player nowadays to reach number 1, they have to be about 1 in 10,000,000.

Take away all the people who are under 185cm (No one under that height has come close to winning a GS since Hewitt, who would have been a great had he been 5 cm taller, same for Nalbandien).

Then take away all the people who cant afford full time training throughout their childhood, and who cant afford to increase this funding as the child moves into his teenage years and needs to train in tennis centers in Spain/ Florida.

Then take away all the people who started playing when they were older than 5 years old. To start later than that is to start too late.


You are left with a LOT less than 10 million.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Take away all the people who are under 185cm (No one under that height has come close to winning a GS since Hewitt, who would have been a great had he been 5 cm taller, same for Nalbandien).

Then take away all the people who cant afford full time training throughout their childhood, and who cant afford to increase this funding as the child moves into his teenage years and needs to train in tennis centers in Spain/ Florida.

Then take away all the people who started playing when they were older than 5 years old. To start later than that is to start too late.


You are left with a LOT less than 10 million.

you can use that argumentation on each and every sport in the world i guess

 

[The Hitch]

you can use that argumentation on each and every sport in the world i guess

Cycling most definately does not require training from toddler age. Many of our finest athletes come from other sports or even other jobs as they move on in their teens and realise they have the ability to push themselves past pain. It does not have such a height restriction. 170cm - 190 for gc riders and - 200 for cobbled ones is far more representative of gen pop than 185 +. It defiantely does not require tens of thousands spent by parents on training from a young age. Many come from poverty.

 

[ElChingon]

What exactly is the feats of strength? Just a wrestling match between Frank and George?

That would be a good start.

 

[gregod]

Yes, naturally. There is merit to WS's point that the depth of competition adds extra prestige to the men's jersey, of course there is.

But part of the reason for the lack of variety in the results of women's races is due to the lack of strength in depth of the field, but also because of the lack of finances a lot of the races stick to set formulae, which do not allow for the sheer variety of parcours, and therefore potential winners in men's cycling. Notwithstanding the money for the participants issue, which of course thins the field because only a handful at the top earn enough to be able to devote themselves full time, thus they are the ones that inevitably get the results and the earnings from that, and the cycle continues.

Vos wins everything because she is by far the biggest fish in a small pond. She dominates hilly races like Gilbert, but she doesn't dominate the sprints to the Cavendish level, nor the mountains to the Contador level.

I'm just saying, men's cycling was pretty predictable and dull in 2011, so let's not use those as arguments against women's cycling. The lack of professionalism, disappointing parcours, lack of depth in the péloton, poor coverage, fine. But the racing? How would we ever know? It's seldom ever shown, and when it is, it's the Worlds on a godawful parcours that a team of Jacky Durand, Vino, VDB, Txurruka, Hoogerland and Chavanel couldn't be bothered to attack on.

i pretty much agree with everything you said.

i would like to add one point. as in figure skating and tennis, men and women are playing the same game, the styles and therefore what makes them exciting differ. personally, i cannot stand figure skating, but women's skating is far more popular than men's because i think, even though the men are more athletic, the women's sport is more graceful. on the other hand, i do enjoy tennis. i used to love watching men's tennis and found women's tennis lacking. now that has switched not only for me, but many more people are tuning in to women's tennis and giving the men's game a pass, because (again, i think) the women's game is more exciting because points are longer.

therefore, simply for fairness, i would like to see women's cycling supported and evolve. women's races are contested differently than men's and this too can be exciting. right now the level of competition just isn't there and one factor is that there isn't the support from the UCI. just as the UCI is spending money in africa and asia on the men, they should be doing the same for women in europe and around the world.

Are you even a fan of this sport?...

this is a bit unfair. i don't know what your highlights were for 2011, but for me they were few and far between. i watched all of the GTs and most of the classics and other monuments including the WCs (some of them a few times!) and remember very little. the only thing that really stands out is voeckler stupidly chasing after contador in the TdF and dooming any chance of a podium finish. this is the only time i got off the couch and screamed at the TV in excitement.

EDIT: i just remembered hoogerland getting run off the road. that had me hopping, too. not one of cycling's finer moments.

 

[The Hitch]

Something a little off track but on a Fox Sports poll they asked the question,"What was the biggest moment in sport of 2011?" Anyway, each option has their sport listed with the actual moment. Cycling seems to be listed as "Other Sport" but all the others aren't...Sigh!

Also, I hear too many times about how Cadel winning the Tour de France will be great "for the sport of the Tour de France". I feel like throwing my remote at the tv.

My agreivances are a little picky but I needed to vent!

You should know by now not to pay attention to mainstream Australian sports media when it comes to cycling, although people like Rob Arnold make me want to facepalm a lot. It's sad here that the Giro which is always better than the Tour receives scant coverage here.

I feel your pain guys. Really do. Seeing the sport degraded this way is a shame.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Cycling most definately does not require training from toddler age. Many of our finest athletes come from other sports or even other jobs as they move on in their teens and realise they have the ability to push themselves past pain. It does not have such a height restriction. 170cm - 190 for gc riders and - 200 for cobbled ones is far more representative of gen pop than 185 +. It defiantely does not require tens of thousands spent by parents on training from a young age. Many come from poverty.

I have to disagree with you on this point Hitch.

Maybe in Europe many cyclists from humble backgrounds make it in pro cycling, but here in the US I think it is very different.

In the first place, if you don't have the spare cash to invest in buying your future champion the best and multiple bikes, gear, clothing, etc you are at a big disadvantage with the ones who have it to spend.

Add the huge amounts of $$ needed to travel the country going to all the necessary races. One parent had better have a flexible job or not work so that you can free up your time to escort junior to these races.

It's sad but I think there is a huge talent pool that will never make it to cycling's higher ranks here just because it is a pretty expensive 'hobby' as the kids get older and more serious.

 

[gregod]

[/B]

I have to disagree with you on this point Hitch.

Maybe in Europe many cyclists from humble backgrounds make it in pro cycling, but here in the US I think it is very different.

In the first place, if you don't have the spare cash to invest in buying your future champion the best and multiple bikes, gear, clothing, etc you are at a big disadvantage with the ones who have it to spend.

Add the huge amounts of $$ needed to travel the country going to all the necessary races. One parent had better have a flexible job or not work so that you can free up your time to escort junior to these races.

It's sad but I think there is a huge talent pool that will never make it to cycling's higher ranks here just because it is a pretty expensive 'hobby' as the kids get older and more serious.

that was pretty much my experience in the US in the early 80s. i went to europe on a shoestring budget and it was much easier, although still no walk in the park particularly for someone of dubious talent and temperment.

 

[The Hitch]

[/B]

I have to disagree with you on this point Hitch.

Maybe in Europe many cyclists from humble backgrounds make it in pro cycling, but here in the US I think it is very different.

In the first place, if you don't have the spare cash to invest in buying your future champion the best and multiple bikes, gear, clothing, etc you are at a big disadvantage with the ones who have it to spend.

Add the huge amounts of $$ needed to travel the country going to all the necessary races. One parent had better have a flexible job or not work so that you can free up your time to escort junior to these races.

It's sad but I think there is a huge talent pool that will never make it to cycling's higher ranks here just because it is a pretty expensive 'hobby' as the kids get older and more serious.

The issue of cyclists form the US being more middle class while european ones more working class has come up before and there certainatly is a lot to it. Here with Kreuziger for example his financial wellbeing is often given as a reason as to why he might not be motivated. I see what you mean about American kids being raised into cycling by their parents.

But I think in the US even, some guys dont come from the cycling background. Matty Busche was a cross country runner and took up cycling during injury recovery, and realised there was more to gain there. Tyler Hamilton had a similar introduction to cycling late in his teens and his sport was skiing.

Those are 2 examples I was thinking of anyway. Dont know what the background is of all the others. Horner was he always a cyclist? Lance came from tri obviously.

Due to the importance of the endurance aspect people with the right mentaility can come from other sports and succeed due to their determination, whereas in something like tennis you need to be developing your movements from a very early age or it will simply be lacking.

 

[craig1985]

I feel your pain guys. Really do. Seeing the sport degraded this way is a shame.

I'm asked in July why am I not in France and doing the TDF, and when I tell them that it is not a charity event that you just enter, you actually need a pro contract from one of the teams invited to race, I'm then asked how far away am I from from being able to race at the TDF. Err a million miles away. I know people who race at NRS level and they won't be turning pro anytime soon and I'm nowhere near their level.

It's cringeworthy and usually I just smile politely and to use a cricket term, I just let it go through to the 'keeper (ie let it pass and not respond).