Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I think 2nd place definitely adds something. In the Froome/Quintana era, Contador is yet to come close to challenging on the biggest stage of all - the Tour. If he could finish 2nd, beating Quintana and pushing Froome at times, then I think that would mark him out as a great spanning two eras. At the moment, he's the greatest rider from the Schleck/Evans era, but only 3rd or 4th in the Froome/Quintana/Nibali era. A 2nd place, beating Quintana and seriously challenging Froome would add something imo. 2nd at the Tour, for example, would be worth more than beating a weak Giro field, or winning the Vuelta in your only GT of the season.

I don't mean to offend but I feel this is exactly the attitude that will kill cycling, I am so happy we have a great field at the Giro this year, many riders switching focus from an anonymous top 10 at the Tour to a possible overall victory at the Giro.

A GT win should never be considered less than a 2nd place at a GT!
Alberto has amassed 7/9 GT victories in 9 seasons, while a 2nd place would proof some of the doubters who believe he would be lucky to finish in the top 5 wrong, it wouldn't add to his palmares, no one would talk about a 2nd place in 10 years time.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Of course, a second place adds nothing to his career. He'll go for the win but at at the end i think he'll be happy with the podium and why not a stage win. We need to be realistic: 2007-2011 are gone, as someone said , in fact, the old Contador would have won the MTF in Andalusia ( 500m soon or not).

I think 2nd place definitely adds something. In the Froome/Quintana era, Contador is yet to come close to challenging on the biggest stage of all - the Tour. If he could finish 2nd, beating Quintana and pushing Froome at times, then I think that would mark him out as a great spanning two eras. At the moment, he's the greatest rider from the Schleck/Evans era, but only 3rd or 4th in the Froome/Quintana/Nibali era. A 2nd place, beating Quintana and seriously challenging Froome would add something imo. 2nd at the Tour, for example, would be worth more than beating a weak Giro field, or winning the Vuelta in your only GT of the season.

Woah, now wait a second there. Putting Nibali ahead of Contador just goes too far (and they are the same generation). Second the iter of AC's career just didn't have the political and economic interests on his side (and management with it) at a particularly delicate (to say the least) moment for the sport. And this has played just as much a factor in the sudden rise of some of his competition.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think 2nd place definitely adds something. In the Froome/Quintana era, Contador is yet to come close to challenging on the biggest stage of all - the Tour. If he could finish 2nd, beating Quintana and pushing Froome at times, then I think that would mark him out as a great spanning two eras. At the moment, he's the greatest rider from the Schleck/Evans era, but only 3rd or 4th in the Froome/Quintana/Nibali era. A 2nd place, beating Quintana and seriously challenging Froome would add something imo. 2nd at the Tour, for example, would be worth more than beating a weak Giro field, or winning the Vuelta in your only GT of the season.

I don't mean to offend but I feel this is exactly the attitude that will kill cycling, I am so happy we have a great field at the Giro this year, many riders switching focus from an anonymous top 10 at the Tour to a possible overall victory at the Giro.

A GT win should never be considered less than a 2nd place at a GT!
Alberto has amassed 7/9 GT victories in 9 seasons, while a 2nd place would proof some of the doubters who believe he would be lucky to finish in the top 5 wrong, it wouldn't add to his palmares, no one would talk about a 2nd place in 10 years time.

I take your point, I think I phrased myself badly. What I was trying to say is that his TdF performances in the last five or so years have been kind of taking away from his legacy and palmares. They've been so poor that he hasn't been a factor in the biggest race for half has career now. Finishing 2nd and mixing it with Froome and Quintana on the biggest stage would reverse that trend and I think is something to be pleased with if he managed it.

A bit like when a once great tennis player or football team which rouses itself to reach a big final one last time. Even if they lose to the new superstars in the sport, it adds to their legacy and gives fans a last chance to appreciate their performance.

Saying that, of course he will go for the win - like any top GC rider would. But 2nd would be a great result as well and definitely would mean something for him and his team.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Of course, a second place adds nothing to his career. He'll go for the win but at at the end i think he'll be happy with the podium and why not a stage win. We need to be realistic: 2007-2011 are gone, as someone said , in fact, the old Contador would have won the MTF in Andalusia ( 500m soon or not).

I think 2nd place definitely adds something. In the Froome/Quintana era, Contador is yet to come close to challenging on the biggest stage of all - the Tour. If he could finish 2nd, beating Quintana and pushing Froome at times, then I think that would mark him out as a great spanning two eras. At the moment, he's the greatest rider from the Schleck/Evans era, but only 3rd or 4th in the Froome/Quintana/Nibali era. A 2nd place, beating Quintana and seriously challenging Froome would add something imo. 2nd at the Tour, for example, would be worth more than beating a weak Giro field, or winning the Vuelta in your only GT of the season.

Woah, now wait a second there. Putting Nibali ahead of Contador just goes too far (and they are the same generation). Second the iter of AC's career just didn't have the political and economic interests on his side (and management with it) at a particularly delicate (to say the least) moment for the sport. And this has played just as much a factor in the sudden rise of some of his competition.

Agreed that Contador is certainly above Nibali overall, but I'm not sure in the last few years. Contador's career can clearly be split into pre-ban and post-ban. Pre-ban he was completely dominant, easily the best stage racer in the world who could win whichever GT he turned up at almost effortlessly. His pre-ban legacy is up there with the greatest riders of all time.

Post ban (which is also the Froome/Quintana generation) he has been one who has to target his races more, and almost scraps to wins or edges out opponents thanks to tactics or willpower. In this phase of his career, I think you could argue that Nibali has been the better rider and has the better palmares. It's this phase of his career - the post-ban legacy - which I think would become greatly enhanced with a strong 2nd place in the Tour.

 

[Escarabajo]

DFA, you just got in trouble in this thread!.

But I am enjoying the discussion.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Nibali has been more dominant than Contador has post-ban in some of the most important races, but I would still take Contador for his consistency and actually caring about other races than a few specific races during a season over that period. Objectively, Nibali definitely has the better GT palmarés post-ban tho, no doubt. 3 GT's each, but Nibali has the big one and 2nd in the Vuelta. He also has a bunch of stage wins which I value highly when winning a GT, dominating opponents and winning stages alá Armstrong. Froome in 2013 and Nibali in 2014 springs to mind here as some truly dominant forces.

Generally, Contador's fan do put too much honour in continuously stating he doesn't care about secondary places while using the argument that he has never finished on a podium in a GC. Only forgetting that he tried very hard to stay on the podium in the 2013 TdF and the 2016 Vuelta. I don't know Contador well enough to speculate on whether he would take a well fought 2nd place in July, a stage win and a bunch of respect and attention from fans/media over the relatively small opportunity of winning. Who knows. I genuinely think Contador thinks he can win so I assume he would be disappointed if he didn't, but DFA's take is also very interesting.

 

[KyoGrey]

Not to disrespect Vincenzo Nibali, who is the greatest italian rider since Pantani (maybe we could consider Bettini for the purists), but he is a 4-star rider in terms of cycling talent when compared to other greats, while Alberto Contador is just a (little) step higher, with the godfathers of the sport.

I know that this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I would like everybody to take 30 seconds to consider and compare the manner in which each of them won their Giro's d'Italia, for example. After and before ban, I don't care. There is the difference between decade great and all-time great.

 

[portugal11]

Nibali would have been crushed in tour 2014 by froome and contador

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Not to disrespect Vincenzo Nibali, who is the greatest italian rider since Pantani (maybe we could consider Bettini for the purists), but he is a 4-star rider in terms of cycling talent when compared to other greats, while Alberto Contador is just a (little) step higher, with the godfathers of the sport.

I know that this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I would like everybody to take 30 seconds to consider and compare the manner in which each of them won their Giro's d'Italia, for example. After and before ban, I don't care. There is the difference between decade great and all-time great.

While I don't disagree with your point overall, that Contador at his peak was ***** and Nibali ****, I'm not sure what you mean about the respective Giro performances.

Post-ban, Contador only won it in 2015 in a slightly unconvincing performance at times, particularly on Finestre, and without winning a stage. Nibali destroyed everyone in 2013, winning three stages. In 2015, he wasn't at his best, but still won a stage and absolutely dominated in the Alps.

Contador pre-ban was something else entirely - incredible dominance in both Giri. But that's kind of the point; he was a clear ***** rider then - one of the all time greats. I'm not sure he is in the post-ban era.

 

[Red Rick]

Seriously, what does Pantani have over Nibali besides winning the double, a drug addiction, a tragic death and the biggest hype of the sport?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Why does it matter if his post-ban palmares is that of an all-time great (it isn't, obviously)? Surely we should judge him by his entire career and not just a part of it.

 

[Squire]

Re: Re:

Not to disrespect Vincenzo Nibali, who is the greatest italian rider since Pantani (maybe we could consider Bettini for the purists), but he is a 4-star rider in terms of cycling talent when compared to other greats, while Alberto Contador is just a (little) step higher, with the godfathers of the sport.

I know that this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I would like everybody to take 30 seconds to consider and compare the manner in which each of them won their Giro's d'Italia, for example. After and before ban, I don't care. There is the difference between decade great and all-time great.

While I don't disagree with your point overall, that Contador at his peak was ***** and Nibali ****, I'm not sure what you mean about the respective Giro performances.

Post-ban, Contador only won it in 2015 in a slightly unconvincing performance at times, particularly on Finestre, and without winning a stage. Nibali destroyed everyone in 2013, winning three stages. In 2015, he wasn't at his best, but still won a stage and absolutely dominated in the Alps.

Contador pre-ban was something else entirely - incredible dominance in both Giri. But that's kind of the point; he was a clear ***** rider then - one of the all time greats. I'm not sure he is in the post-ban era.

Did we watch the same race in 2008?

 

[LaFlorecita]

I don't think his 2015 Giro win was that impressive. What impressed me most was his ITT, he was a beast. And of course his team was worthless and he dealt with an insane Astana team on his own. But he was very vulnerable uphill.

 

[rick james]

Re:

Seriously, what does Pantani have over Nibali besides winning the double, a drug addiction, a tragic death and the biggest hype of the sport?

Google hits??

 

[Pennino]

Re:

I don't think his 2015 Giro win was that impressive. What impressed me most was his ITT, he was a beast. And of course his team was worthless and he dealt with an insane Astana team on his own. But he was very vulnerable uphill.

Yeah but he was thinking about the double and also had that nasty crash shoulder injury which surely has had it's impact (also on his Tour, I still believe).

Maybe thát is what is impressive about that Giro: doing it while not being 100%, without any team by his side uphill against an aggressive as ever Astana.

Besides he never should have picked 2015 for a double attempt. That Tour was war on from the beginning: that time trial, followed by a 100% sure echelon stage, followed by the cobbled one, followed by the Mur de Huy... when attempting the double you are going to need a really smooth first ten days before hitting the mountains.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Why does it matter if his post-ban palmares is that of an all-time great (it isn't, obviously)? Surely we should judge him by his entire career and not just a part of it.

Well, of course, it's up to you how you judge his career. For me though, the ban also coincides with a changing era - with Froome and Quintana coming through - and also a very noticeable change in Contador's style. So I think it makes sense to view his legacy in two parts. It's kind of like Federer - his wins early in the career were great and showed his ability - beating the likes of Hewitt. But when Nadal came around and properly challenged him was where he cemented his legacy - despite losing quite often. I think Contador could do the same with a strong podium finish in the Tour.

 

[KyoGrey]

Re:

Seriously, what does Pantani have over Nibali besides winning the double, a drug addiction, a tragic death and the biggest hype of the sport?

Nibali's climbing talent compared with Pantani's is like comparing a FIAT with a Ferrari.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Of course, a second place adds nothing to his career. He'll go for the win but at at the end i think he'll be happy with the podium and why not a stage win. We need to be realistic: 2007-2011 are gone, as someone said , in fact, the old Contador would have won the MTF in Andalusia ( 500m soon or not).

I think 2nd place definitely adds something. In the Froome/Quintana era, Contador is yet to come close to challenging on the biggest stage of all - the Tour. If he could finish 2nd, beating Quintana and pushing Froome at times, then I think that would mark him out as a great spanning two eras. At the moment, he's the greatest rider from the Schleck/Evans era, but only 3rd or 4th in the Froome/Quintana/Nibali era. A 2nd place, beating Quintana and seriously challenging Froome would add something imo. 2nd at the Tour, for example, would be worth more than beating a weak Giro field, or winning the Vuelta in your only GT of the season.

Woah, now wait a second there. Putting Nibali ahead of Contador just goes too far (and they are the same generation). Second the iter of AC's career just didn't have the political and economic interests on his side (and management with it) at a particularly delicate (to say the least) moment for the sport. And this has played just as much a factor in the sudden rise of some of his competition.

Agreed that Contador is certainly above Nibali overall, but I'm not sure in the last few years. Contador's career can clearly be split into pre-ban and post-ban. Pre-ban he was completely dominant, easily the best stage racer in the world who could win whichever GT he turned up at almost effortlessly. His pre-ban legacy is up there with the greatest riders of all time.

Post ban (which is also the Froome/Quintana generation) he has been one who has to target his races more, and almost scraps to wins or edges out opponents thanks to tactics or willpower. In this phase of his career, I think you could argue that Nibali has been the better rider and has the better palmares. It's this phase of his career - the post-ban legacy - which I think would become greatly enhanced with a strong 2nd place in the Tour.

Post ban, pre ban...We're talking about "you can't handle the truth!!!"

 

[Jspear]

So AC will be riding in support for Mollema (CN article) at Abu Dhabi. I wonder what that will look like. I can't picture him spilling his guts out for a Mollema attack.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Nibali has been more dominant than Contador has post-ban in some of the most important races, but I would still take Contador for his consistency and actually caring about other races than a few specific races during a season over that period. Objectively, Nibali definitely has the better GT palmarés post-ban tho, no doubt. 3 GT's each, but Nibali has the big one and 2nd in the Vuelta. He also has a bunch of stage wins which I value highly when winning a GT, dominating opponents and winning stages alá Armstrong. Froome in 2013 and Nibali in 2014 springs to mind here as some truly dominant forces.

Generally, Contador's fan do put too much honour in continuously stating he doesn't care about secondary places while using the argument that he has never finished on a podium in a GC. Only forgetting that he tried very hard to stay on the podium in the 2013 TdF and the 2016 Vuelta. I don't know Contador well enough to speculate on whether he would take a well fought 2nd place in July, a stage win and a bunch of respect and attention from fans/media over the relatively small opportunity of winning. Who knows. I genuinely think Contador thinks he can win so I assume he would be disappointed if he didn't, but DFA's take is also very interesting.

Dude, what are you talking about? The only reason Nibali won that Tour is because Froome and Contador crashed out. If Nibali can't win other races, it's not for lack of trying, but he just can't and have the class to compete in the bigger objectives.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

I don't believe that for a rider of his caliber and with his career plamares, anything less than a win at the Tour would have meaning. A podium spot would only be a disappointment (however the circumstances). In fact he has repeatedly stressed he is going for another yellow jersey.

He certainly seemed disappointed when he lost his Vuelta podium. Of course he wants to win but since 2010 the Tour podium has been elusive and I think he would rather accept it than not.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

So AC will be riding in support for Mollema (CN article) at Abu Dhabi. I wonder what that will look like. I can't picture him spilling his guts out for a Mollema attack.

Last time something similar happened (Alberto riding as domestique for one of his teammates) was in Dauphine 2013 for Rogers, wasn't it? Nobody cares about Abu Dhabi Tour anyway. I think he will do a good job, but if Mollema is totally s**t up Jebel Hafeet, he should be have the freedom to ride for himself. Hopefully no crashes - that should be the main objective along with the training it provides. It's not such a bad idea to ride the race, I think.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Nibali would have been crushed in tour 2014 by froome and contador

Considering that Nibali already had a two minute lead when Froome and Contador exited, and totally dominated the race while making it look like a training ride, I'm not so sure that he could not have challenged the other two. Let's just say it would have been interesting and we may have missed one of the great Tours potentially.

 

[ThePirate81]

@rhubroma
You forget Sheffield and the pavé stage...
@movingtarget
I agree. Nibali was a beast in that Tour. Hope for Giro-Vuelta double this year.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Nibali has been more dominant than Contador has post-ban in some of the most important races, but I would still take Contador for his consistency and actually caring about other races than a few specific races during a season over that period. Objectively, Nibali definitely has the better GT palmarés post-ban tho, no doubt. 3 GT's each, but Nibali has the big one and 2nd in the Vuelta. He also has a bunch of stage wins which I value highly when winning a GT, dominating opponents and winning stages alá Armstrong. Froome in 2013 and Nibali in 2014 springs to mind here as some truly dominant forces.

Generally, Contador's fan do put too much honour in continuously stating he doesn't care about secondary places while using the argument that he has never finished on a podium in a GC. Only forgetting that he tried very hard to stay on the podium in the 2013 TdF and the 2016 Vuelta. I don't know Contador well enough to speculate on whether he would take a well fought 2nd place in July, a stage win and a bunch of respect and attention from fans/media over the relatively small opportunity of winning. Who knows. I genuinely think Contador thinks he can win so I assume he would be disappointed if he didn't, but DFA's take is also very interesting.

Dude, what are you talking about? The only reason Nibali won that Tour is because Froome and Contador crashed out. If Nibali can't win other races, it's not for lack of trying, but he just can't and have the class to compete in the bigger objectives.

Dno if serious here, but Nibali has won 4 GTs and a monument. He seems perfectly capable of competing in the 'bigger objectives'.