Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

You need to consider, though, that Aru definitely and Fulgsang too have increased their level considerably. Yates has apparently done so as well and Quintana we know can be stronger in his second GT.

Froome did stress that this year his rivals would be stronger. I'm hoping this assessment is right, so he is attackable in the mountains. Contador did look quite lean in the opening pictures. Surely he would not have shown up to be dominated the rising crew. Perhaps he's better than the TT showed.

Yes, i.e Aru is better this year, and he was better in stage 1 compared to last year. He lost around 3m 25s to Froome last year in roughly 35km flat TT... so no news there either.

You keep saying, however, that Contador's performance was so terrible using Aru (and Quintana) as the gauge, while acknowledging Aru was better this time against Froome. Do you fail to see this also applies to Aru in relation to Contador, who also rode more conservatively thus giving away more time?

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

Are Sky able to wear these new suits on every stage?

If yes, then it's going to possibly be advantageous.

But at the end of the day, over any parcours, more horsepower is the biggest trump card to play.

Tyre choice is probably the biggest mechanical advantage other than aerodynamic position that impacted the times OTHER than power.

Everyone will choose more power over fancy stripes on racing jerseys because that matters more.

The wording of the rule in the UCI regulations is really poor and loose.

Sky and the ASO are milking that for all it's worth. One adverb/noun out of place and the meaning of that rule switches. It would appear it's legal, because it's within the fabrication process and manufacturing of the article of clothing.

Personally, I'd have taken the other meaning, and presumed that makes it an addition that creates a "vortex."

of course you would

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froome. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

 

[Publicus]

Well I seem to recall Thomas' ITT after his crash and ahead of his subsequent withdrawal because of said crash was a bit eye opening. I don't think anyone focused on his suit at the time. Did all of the Sky team use the suit at the Giro, or just Thomas? Also, I seem to recall the commentators saying that the skin suits didn't arrive until June 30th, so I'm not sure how much credence you can put on the fact that a similar suit was used at the Giro--if there were material changes since May.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froom. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

I give up. Simply because your world only runs between Froome vs. Berto. You fail to see all the rest would've been 20sec faster compared to Froome as well. Yates almost equal time then, Quintana 20sec down, which is about 60% less than previous TT's, Aru shaving about 75% off from his last year deficit, and the list goes on and on.

But go on and live in that world and make yourself even more happy, because actually Froome seems to be in very bad form compared to previous years.
Really *** that UCI actually has already approved the material a while ago and actually Berto is 42sec still behind in GC. And the famous train will not miss any stations this year either... unfortunately.

 

[Katabatic]

Agreed, Froome's time gaps are pretty consistent with his gap to Quintana, Aru, Yates, Bardet, etc.

It's Porte and Contador that are slow compared to everyone else. And that's probably because neither of them are exceptional bike handlers and probably played it a bit safe.

 

[oldcrank]

Re:

Well I seem to recall Thomas' ITT after his crash and ahead of his subsequent withdrawal because of said crash was a bit eye opening. I don't think anyone focused on his suit at the time. Did all of the Sky team use the suit at the Giro, or just Thomas? Also, I seem to recall the commentators saying that the skin suits didn't arrive until June 30th, so I'm not sure how much credence you can put on the fact that a similar suit was used at the Giro--if there were material changes since May.

Only Thomas and Landa used the suits at the Giro,
but there have been some tweaks (and of course a
colour change ) for the Tour I believe.

 

[Jelantik]

Re: Re:

Doesn't matter anyway, UCI approved and folk need to move on from it

That's got nothing to do with the issue I raised and Trek certainly won't be just "moving on," when there is still the Marsailles TT.

The point was if Contador (and the other GC guys) lost time because of not wearing these skinsuits, then the differnence in actual fitness may not be so great as it first appeared. If so, then there is hope for the mountains.

PS: If there is that much advantage gained, then all the teams should have access to the same kit, otherwise the results are falsified. The UCI should consider this in its ruling. It's not the bike, but the rider himself that's modified.

As I said earlier, the time difference from Froome to majority of GC contenders wasn't extraordinary high. I.e. Bardet would've lost just above 2m in 40km TT with the pace yesterday, which sounds about par comparing previous years.

For Berto and Porte the difference was too much. It was bad TT from Contador however you look at it, he lost to freaking Nairo Quintana, probably the first time ever.

he also lost to Majka. When is the last time Majka beat Contador in ITT?

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froom. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

I give up. Simply because your world only runs between Froome vs. Berto. You fail to see all the rest would've been 20sec faster compared to Froome as well. Yates almost equal time then, Quintana 20sec down, which is about 60% less than previous TT's, Aru shaving about 75% off from his last year deficit, and the list goes on and on.

But go on and live in that world and make yourself even more happy, because actually Froome seems to be in very bad form compared to previous years.
Really **** that UCI actually has already approved the material a while ago and actually Berto is 42sec still behind in GC. And the famous train will not miss any stations this year either... unfortunately.

And I don't know what Froome's form is really like, as he didn't show anything alien before this Tour. It is evidently pretty good, which is of course not surpising. But I can attest to the fact that Aru is flying, for which his big improvement in the TT was not surprising. If the skinsuit did give Froome a 20 sec advantage (or 10, or whatever it may have been) then, despite being in top form, he isn't much better than the other GC contenders, including Contador perhaps, considering how cautious he rode the TT course.

This would be good for the race, for cycling, sport.

Let's just hope all the contenders have the same kit by the Marseilles TT, at least to have a fair fight, which is something Sky never seems to have found agreeable.

*Edit by King Boonen: Insults removed. Please be civil.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froom. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

I give up. Simply because your world only runs between Froome vs. Berto. You fail to see all the rest would've been 20sec faster compared to Froome as well. Yates almost equal time then, Quintana 20sec down, which is about 60% less than previous TT's, Aru shaving about 75% off from his last year deficit, and the list goes on and on.

But go on and live in that world and make yourself even more happy, because actually Froome seems to be in very bad form compared to previous years.
Really **** that UCI actually has already approved the material a while ago and actually Berto is 42sec still behind in GC. And the famous train will not miss any stations this year either... unfortunately.

And I don't know what Froome's form is really like, as he didn't show anything alien before this Tour. It is evidently pretty good, which is of course not surpising. But I can attest to the fact that Aru is flying, for which his big improvement in the TT was not surprising. If the skinsuit did give Froome a 20 sec advantage (or 10, or whatever it may have been) then, despite being in top form, he isn't much better than the other GC contenders, including Contador perhaps, considering how cautious he rode the TT course.

This would be good for the race, for cycling, sport.

Let's just hope all the contenders have the same kit by the Marseilles TT, at least to have a fair fight, which is something Sky never seems to have found agreeable.

No doubt Quintana has improved his TT while Uran just seems to be in the doldrums after his two podiums at the Giro. Stage 5 should be the the first real indicator of form not a short TT in a rain storm. Hopefully Porte and Bardet are okay and Froome seems fine apart from losing some skin. I want to see a good battle.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froom. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

I give up. Simply because your world only runs between Froome vs. Berto. You fail to see all the rest would've been 20sec faster compared to Froome as well. Yates almost equal time then, Quintana 20sec down, which is about 60% less than previous TT's, Aru shaving about 75% off from his last year deficit, and the list goes on and on.

But go on and live in that world and make yourself even more happy, because actually Froome seems to be in very bad form compared to previous years.
Really **** that UCI actually has already approved the material a while ago and actually Berto is 42sec still behind in GC. And the famous train will not miss any stations this year either... unfortunately.

And I don't know what Froome's form is really like, as he didn't show anything alien before this Tour. It is evidently pretty good, which is of course not surpising. But I can attest to the fact that Aru is flying, for which his big improvement in the TT was not surprising. If the skinsuit did give Froome a 20 sec advantage (or 10, or whatever it may have been) then, despite being in top form, he isn't much better than the other GC contenders, including Contador perhaps, considering how cautious he rode the TT course.

This would be good for the race, for cycling, sport.

Let's just hope all the contenders have the same kit by the Marseilles TT, at least to have a fair fight, which is something Sky never seems to have found agreeable.

I'm still classy enough to not start bringing anything personal (even Avatar) to the discussion, unlike you.

You are alone with your opinion, while as you can see there are others who agree the only irregular performances were Porte's and Berto's who indeed probably took it bit safe and delievered bad TT.

Over and out.

 

[Valv.Piti]

There's no reason to get personal, rhubroma.

Did Froome risk everything in the corner? He really didn't IMO, he was just better to me (yes, more technically skilled and psychically stronger on a powerful course) while Porte and Alberto are relatively poor bike handlers and as a result were pretty cautious. However, all went to their limits psychically. And as Armstrong said, Froome already dealt a major blow to his competitors: message received. Ironically, the riders who did the best were the riders you would expect to get clapped, Bardet and Quintana.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

There's no reason to get personal, rhubroma.

Did Froome risk everything in the corner? He really didn't IMO, he was just better to me (yes, more technically skilled and psychically stronger on a powerful course) while Porte and Alberto are relatively poor bike handlers and as a result were pretty cautious. However, all went to their limits psychically. And as Armstrong said, Froome already dealt a major blow to his competitors: message received. Ironically, the riders who did the best were the riders you would expect to get clapped, Bardet and Quintana.

Contador was a good bike handler and not all of his accidents are his fault. I would rate him above Porte especially on descents. Froome has improved over the past few years even though he never really looks comfortable but that's more to do with his riding style. I think Quintana has improved as well.

 

[ad9898]

I've read the last few pages of this thread, let's leave the TT behind now. Contador is where he is, only he knows how cautious he was etc... The weather had an adverse effect, how much ? We don't know. We will find out over the coming days for sure. Today will be interesting, my opinion is if he loses the wheel today of the big favourites he's in trouble. The first real big test will be on Wednesday. At the end of that stage the TT will be a distant memory.

Let's look forward to... and hope for some vintage Contador

 

[jilbiker]

hey
Porte and Froome crash yesterday, Valverde out, Quitana, giro legs, Izzigare out with crash. Pinot seems to racing backwards and in all this no one is hearing of AC? Why am I getting a feeling of Nibali in 2014? I am not saying Nibs wasn't in splendid form that year but all the cards played well, opposition removed or almost nullified without expending great energy. lets see how this plays out.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

hey
Porte and Froome crash yesterday, Valverde out, Quitana, giro legs, Izzigare out with crash. Pinot seems to racing backwards and in all this no one is hearing of AC? Why am I getting a feeling of Nibali in 2014? I am not saying Nibs wasn't in splendid form that year but all the cards played well, opposition removed or almost nullified without expending great energy. lets see how this plays out.

Contador will show us today that his reference to having 2014 form was a lie.

He will kick away on the 8% section with over a km to go and hold on for the stage win. In comparison, stage 8 2014 will look like he's just come from the beach

 

[LaFlorecita]

yesterday I was thinking someone in the peloton has learned Nibali's voodoo skills - Quintana, Contador or Aru?
Valverde out, Froome, Bardet, Porte on the ground.
maybe we'll know more after today's stage

 

[bambino]

Re:

yesterday I was thinking someone in the peloton has learned Nibali's voodoo skills - Quintana, Contador or Aru?
Valverde out, Froome, Bardet, Porte on the ground.
maybe we'll know more after today's stage

Well we know who used to be the Wizard's young apprentice, don't we?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

Are Sky able to wear these new suits on every stage?

If yes, then it's going to possibly be advantageous.

But at the end of the day, over any parcours, more horsepower is the biggest trump card to play.

Tyre choice is probably the biggest mechanical advantage other than aerodynamic position that impacted the times OTHER than power.

Everyone will choose more power over fancy stripes on racing jerseys because that matters more.

The wording of the rule in the UCI regulations is really poor and loose.

Sky and the ASO are milking that for all it's worth. One adverb/noun out of place and the meaning of that rule switches. It would appear it's legal, because it's within the fabrication process and manufacturing of the article of clothing.

Personally, I'd have taken the other meaning, and presumed that makes it an addition that creates a "vortex."

of course you would

...as if you have no bias.

 

[perico]

Nice analysis

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/last-chance-saloon-contador-gambles-new-tour-de-france-approach/

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.

I fail to see how past performances of competitors is relevant to what we saw, when they have improved. Thus Aru is simply better today than in the past, for which Contador was, even with more bold riding, not going to gain much time on him. And let's say the 20 seconds gain from the skinsuits is real, then he lost only 22 seconds to Froom. Lets say he could have gathered back another 8-10 seconds riding more aggressively in the turns. Now we are at 12-14 seconds to Froome. Even if the skinsuits offered only 10 seconds advantage, we are still at 22-24 seconds, which is considerably better.

I give up. Simply because your world only runs between Froome vs. Berto. You fail to see all the rest would've been 20sec faster compared to Froome as well. Yates almost equal time then, Quintana 20sec down, which is about 60% less than previous TT's, Aru shaving about 75% off from his last year deficit, and the list goes on and on.

But go on and live in that world and make yourself even more happy, because actually Froome seems to be in very bad form compared to previous years.
Really **** that UCI actually has already approved the material a while ago and actually Berto is 42sec still behind in GC. And the famous train will not miss any stations this year either... unfortunately.

And I don't know what Froome's form is really like, as he didn't show anything alien before this Tour. It is evidently pretty good, which is of course not surpising. But I can attest to the fact that Aru is flying, for which his big improvement in the TT was not surprising. If the skinsuit did give Froome a 20 sec advantage (or 10, or whatever it may have been) then, despite being in top form, he isn't much better than the other GC contenders, including Contador perhaps, considering how cautious he rode the TT course.

This would be good for the race, for cycling, sport.

Let's just hope all the contenders have the same kit by the Marseilles TT, at least to have a fair fight, which is something Sky never seems to have found agreeable.

I'm still classy enough to not start bringing anything personal (even Avatar) to the discussion, unlike you.

You are alone with your opinion, while as you can see there are others who agree the only irregular performances were Porte's and Berto's who indeed probably took it bit safe and delievered bad TT.

Over and out.

Yes classy enough to repeatedly reply with condescension and conceitedness, thus you deserved the response you got.

It doesn't matter what you think about my opinion, which were just speculations about the issues at hand. Although the article in today's la Gazzetta dello Sport presents an interesting technical perspective from Steven Smith, brand manager of Italian Castelli, which makes the TT skin suit worn by Froome, Thomas and Kyrienka at the opening TT.

In the first instance, Smith relates, the version of the suit used at the Tour, was already an improved prototype from the Giro (third version in fact) and just completed days before the event. Secondly Smith acknowledges that Castelli is presently developing 20 products for Sky, 7-8 of which are already ready. Several will go to the public market, while others will remain within the team. Thirdly the improved suit worn in the TT, Smith states, has an exponential increase of watts to speed ratio: for instance at 50 kph, the rider gains 7-8 watts (2% advantage), but at 55 kph 20 watts (5% advantage), a huge enhancement. Naturally a rider has to be able to generate 55 kph, but on a short TT with long, flat stretches that can be achieved by the really strong riders. Once you get up to that speed: take-off.

The science is based on aircraft wind resistance and drag, for which Castelli availed itself of a Sardinian aerodynamic specialist from the University of Oslo. Most probably Froome will be wearing a special helmet on the Planch des Belles Filles stage.

The high-tech war is on.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

There's no reason to get personal, rhubroma.

Did Froome risk everything in the corner? He really didn't IMO, he was just better to me (yes, more technically skilled and psychically stronger on a powerful course) while Porte and Alberto are relatively poor bike handlers and as a result were pretty cautious. However, all went to their limits psychically. And as Armstrong said, Froome already dealt a major blow to his competitors: message received. Ironically, the riders who did the best were the riders you would expect to get clapped, Bardet and Quintana.

Bambino's a big boy, he can take it.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

There's no reason to get personal, rhubroma.

Did Froome risk everything in the corner? He really didn't IMO, he was just better to me (yes, more technically skilled and psychically stronger on a powerful course) while Porte and Alberto are relatively poor bike handlers and as a result were pretty cautious. However, all went to their limits psychically. And as Armstrong said, Froome already dealt a major blow to his competitors: message received. Ironically, the riders who did the best were the riders you would expect to get clapped, Bardet and Quintana.

Bambino's a big boy, he can take it.

Doesn't matter if he's a big boy or not, please don't take things to a personal level.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

yesterday I was thinking someone in the peloton has learned Nibali's voodoo skills - Quintana, Contador or Aru?
Valverde out, Froome, Bardet, Porte on the ground.
maybe we'll know more after today's stage

Nibali will ride the Vuelta, the voodoo works only on those who, somehow unwise plan to come against him later in Spain.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

yesterday I was thinking someone in the peloton has learned Nibali's voodoo skills - Quintana, Contador or Aru?
Valverde out, Froome, Bardet, Porte on the ground.
maybe we'll know more after today's stage

Nibali will ride the Vuelta, the voodoo works only on those who, somehow unwise plan to come against him later in Spain.

+100