Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[JRanton]

in terms of his climbing more, with his tt'ing he remained nearly the same. on stage 17 he struggled more and was going slower than in previous summit finishes; hence why I am saying he likely lost form

Stop trolling.

 

[Poursuivant]

This year Froome has based his whole season around TDF, his Vuelta performance came after TDF. TDF 2013 Froome will be a lot stronger than Vuelta 2012 Froome. Contador knows that too, he is not silly.

 

[nick101]

for me froomes 2011 vuelta was nearly a perfect race for him. he came in at average form and by the stage at pena cabarga, was peaking - that is his 100%. from his current climbing, he is nearly at that maximum now, about 95%. even if is doing short peaks, he won't be able to do that in the tour and because he's been holding form for so long, he will begin to lose form. as for froome being below 80% the whole season - I haven't seen him once that unfit, if he was he wouldn't be winning races. even at tirreno he was above 90% but nibali outsmarted him.

contadors climbing when he is on form is up to 1900VAM, whereas froome has only once managed to climb at 1800VAM and that was only on a short climb, andy can do over 1800VAM consistently, do the math and if contador brings that form he will beat froome, 90% and he will only lose a few seconds in the sprint, but otherwise match him on the climbs. evans is for me a once in a generation rider. it has been said that if the past era was clean, evans would be a multi gt winning rider. but even in his season with evans took a substantial break after peaking at tirenno and romandie and then built up again so he was peaking for the tour by the alps. plus at romandie he rode consistently but never won a stage or podiumed. froome has had a very intense season winning almost every race he enters, evans did not win every race he entered either and raced less than froome

 

[Afrank]

for me froomes 2011 vuelta was nearly a perfect race for him. he came in at average form and by the stage at pena cabarga, was peaking - that is his 100%. from his current climbing, he is nearly at that maximum now, about 95%. even if is doing short peaks, he won't be able to do that in the tour and because he's been holding form for so long, he will begin to lose form. as for froome being below 80% the whole season - I haven't seen him once that unfit, if he was he wouldn't be winning races. even at tirreno he was above 90% but nibali outsmarted him.

contadors climbing when he is on form is up to 1900VAM, whereas froome has only once managed to climb at 1800VAM and that was only on a short climb, andy can do over 1800VAM consistently, do the math and if contador brings that form he will beat froome, 90% and he will only lose a few seconds in the sprint, but otherwise match him on the climbs. evans is for me a once in a generation rider. it has been said that if the past era was clean, evans would be a multi gt winning rider. but even in his season with evans took a substantial break after peaking at tirenno and romandie and then built up again so he was peaking for the tour by the alps. plus at romandie he rode consistently but never won a stage or podiumed. froome has had a very intense season winning almost every race he enters, evans did not win every race he entered either and raced less than froome

You keep talking about where each rider is at in multiple threads as if you know for sure they are at 80%, 90%, 95% etc. How do you know Froome is at his maximum now? Because he's winning races? If your one of the best in the world you don't have to be at the very top of your game to win races. And right now Froome is the best in the world. Winning mountain stages for him has become like winning TT's was for Wiggins last year. Plus according to him before Dauphine he wasn't at his best

If Froome doesn't win the Tour, it won't be because he mistimed his form or peaked to early. It will be because someone else was simply better.

 

[nick101]

yes have you seen froome actually climbing better as the season progressed? because I haven't, his climbing has remained more or less the same. I talk about where each rider is because I can estimate their form reasonably well if I compare it their previous maximums. as for froome losing, I totally agree that contador would have to be better, which he has demonstrated in the past he that can be (2009 and 2011 esp.).

yes even if froome lost form, contador would still have to be at his best to beat him. as for wiggins winning tt's there were other good tt'rs that normally beat him - cancellara, martin and maybe one or two others. the reason why wiggins dominated tt's was simply because cancellara and martin were unfit. same thing with froome, contador just hasn't been up to scratch this year and with the re-emergence of schleck beginning I think froomes dominance will be less so than what we have seen.

 

[Afrank]

yes have you seen froome actually climbing better as the season progressed? because I haven't, his climbing has remained more or less the same. I talk about where each rider is because I can estimate their form reasonably well if I compare it their previous maximums. as for froome losing, I totally agree that contador would have to be better, which he has demonstrated in the past he that can be (2009 and 2011 esp.).

yes even if froome lost form, contador would still have to be at his best to beat him. as for wiggins winning tt's there were other good tt'rs that normally beat him - cancellara, martin and maybe one or two others. the reason why wiggins dominated tt's was simply because cancellara and martin were unfit. same thing with froome, contador just hasn't been up to scratch this year and with the re-emergence of schleck beginning I think froomes dominance will be less so than what we have seen.

I'd say his climbing this year is better than the last couple years at least. But my point was that we can't know for sure where exactly each rider is at with their form. I don't think Froome will have any trouble with having mistimed his peak or tiring out later in the Tour due to peaking before for the earlier races.

To the bolded, his dominance will only be less if the other top guys (Contador, maybe schleck, as well as other top climbers) have managed to catch up to him in climbing level. I'm not sure they will be able to. Schleck I don't think will do much in the way of GC. Contador may be able to catch up to him, but nothing is sure with the level he has shown so far this season. The other top climbers he should easily be able to distance enough in the TT's.

 

[nick101]

I was meaning this season froome has not improved much in terms of climbing, since 2011 not much either but he's become a more rounded rider. his climbing VAM is less than the 2011 vuelta atm. we won't obviously know the contenders form exactly as they won't be racing again so we won't know until the tour. but we can obviously estimate their current form well. schleck cannot beat froome in a gt because his tting loses him a couple of minutes, unless he was to pull out another repeat of tourmalet of course.
in terms of tting contador would have to be top form to beat him. there will be so many good climbers on form at the tour that froome likely won't gain as much time. dan martin, igor anton, mollema and pinot are looking impressive imo

 

[movingtarget]

I'd say his climbing this year is better than the last couple years at least. But my point was that we can't know for sure where exactly each rider is at with their form. I don't think Froome will have any trouble with having mistimed his peak or tiring out later in the Tour due to peaking before for the earlier races.

To the bolded, his dominance will only be less if the other top guys (Contador, maybe schleck, as well as other top climbers) have managed to catch up to him in climbing level. I'm not sure they will be able to. Schleck I don't think will do much in the way of GC. Contador may be able to catch up to him, but nothing is sure with the level he has shown so far this season. The other top climbers he should easily be able to distance enough in the TT's.

It's hard to say if he is climbing better than last year as he was riding in support of Wiggins but he has made the most of his opportunities this season. I would argue that Porte's climbing has improved more than Froome's. Dunno why people keep name checking Andy. Yes he has improved but the TDS is not full of Tour contenders at the moment. I can't see Andy finishing in the top 10 maybe not even top 20. He will probably target a stage win if he can. 2014 will be Andy's more likely target and if he does not do much next year his career will be in limbo as a possible GC winner. I saw nothing in the Dauphine, Giro or TDS to think that Froome is going to struggle to win the Tour. Only illness or a top notch Contador can stop him or clever team tactics that no one seems to employ these days and I'm not convinced that any of those things will happen. Of course illness is a lottery. Nibali in the 2014 Tour in Giro form with back to form Andy, that would make a fascinating race next year with the other top riders and the improving Colombians. Next year's could be even better though this year's should still be good. Will this year be the Contador Froome showdown that many are expecting ?

 

[Afrank]

I was meaning this season froome has not improved much in terms of climbing, since 2011 not much either but he's become a more rounded rider. his climbing VAM is less than the 2011 vuelta atm. we won't obviously know the contenders form exactly as they won't be racing again so we won't know until the tour. but we can obviously estimate their current form well. schleck cannot beat froome in a gt because his tting loses him a couple of minutes, unless he was to pull out another repeat of tourmalet of course.
in terms of tting contador would have to be top form to beat him. there will be so many good climbers on form at the tour that froome likely won't gain as much time. dan martin, igor anton, mollema and pinot are looking impressive imo

Froome is ten times the climber than the guys you listed there. The only guys I see that could beat Froome in climbing are Contador and Schleck if they are in form, maybe Quintana too (the guys a phenom). And Purito may be able to match him.

And I don't think he needs to improve his current climbing level this year for the Tour.

 

[Afrank]

It's hard to say if he is climbing better than last year as he was riding in support of Wiggins but he has made the most of his opportunities this season. I would argue that Porte's climbing has improved more than Froome's. Dunno why people keep name checking Andy. Yes he has improved but the TDS is not full of Tour contenders at the moment. I can't see Andy finishing in the top 10 maybe not even top 20. He will probably target a stage win if he can. 2014 will be Andy's more likely target and if he does not do much next year his career will be in limbo as a possible GC winner. I saw nothing in the Dauphine, Giro or TDS to think that Froome is going to struggle to win the Tour. Only illness or a top notch Contador can stop him or clever team tactics that no one seems to employ these days and I'm not convinced that any of those things will happen. Of course illness is a lottery. Nibali in the 2014 Tour in Giro form with back to form Andy, that would make a fascinating race next year with the other top riders and the improving Colombians. Next year's could be even better though this year's should still be good. Will this year be the Contador Froome showdown that many are expecting ?

I'm not expecting anything from Andy in terms of GC either actually. I think he will end up focusing on getting some stage wins. 2014 will be the year to start looking at GC again.
Portes climbing has definitely improved more too, since his climbing before this year was at a much lower level. Froome really didn't need to improve his climbing too much from last year.

 

[nick101]

I would argue that Porte's climbing has improved more than Froome's.... Yes he has improved but the TDS is not full of Tour contenders at the moment. I can't see Andy finishing in the top 10 maybe not even top 20..... I saw nothing in the Dauphine, Giro or TDS to think that Froome is going to struggle to win the Tour... Will this year be the Contador Froome showdown that many are expecting ?

I strongly agree about porte, compared to his first gt at the giro 2009 he is climbing much better, but he hasn't improved much since 2012 algarve. I'm not sure u'v seen the latest stage of the tds??? Andy only lost 10 seconds/km in the last 4kms of the climb to the main climbers at the tds which really isn't bad at all, but then lost another 40 seconds on the descent. Andy also climbed faster on the abulapass than he did in 2011 but there was a headwind in 2011. There were some impressive attacks especially by mollema and roy, plus it was repeated attacks not just one attack like froome does. Giro is irrelevant also. A lot of the gc guys haven't been fit, recently raced against froome or have been hiding their form so u can't really say that froome will EASILY win based on the assumption that contador et al all remain unfit. All the gc contenders will be at the tdf (apart from nibali) and most will be on form; froome already is. If andy keeps progressing at the rate he is currently at then he would be back by ventoux. The only attacks I've seen from froome are in the final kms and without the armchair ride sky gives him to the finish he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. Most of the riders I say can beat froome attack from 10kms out and no one can catch them. When I see froome do that then I will agree

 

[airstream]

Cmon it's not trolling. Some young fan just shares his assumptions. It's ok. I just don't think Froome won the races at 100%, probably it was only about 70-80%. In addition if Contador had shown such a winning swing it could've added him only more favoritism. In Froome's situation we allegedly have the opposite thing. It's not very logical.

yes have you seen froome actually climbing better as the season progressed? because I haven't, his climbing has remained more or less the same. I talk about where each rider is because I can estimate their form reasonably well

No one can't because a rider's goal is to win the race, not to show 100% of current capabities. It's 2 different things.

one or two others. the reason why wiggins dominated tt's was simply because cancellara and martin were unfit. same thing with froome, contador just hasn't been up to scratch this year and with the re-emergence of schleck beginning

hehe, following this logic riders who have more titles can lose only if they are unfit... No man, best riders change each other and we are on the edge of another change this year.

 

[movingtarget]

I strongly agree about porte, compared to his first gt at the giro 2009 he is climbing much better, but he hasn't improved much since 2012 algarve. I'm not sure u'v seen the latest stage of the tds??? Andy only lost 10 seconds/km in the last 4kms of the climb to the main climbers at the tds which really isn't bad at all, but then lost another 40 seconds on the descent. Andy also climbed faster on the abulapass than he did in 2011 but there was a headwind in 2011. There were some impressive attacks especially by mollema and roy, plus it was repeated attacks not just one attack like froome does. Giro is irrelevant also. A lot of the gc guys haven't been fit, recently raced against froome or have been hiding their form so u can't really say that froome will EASILY win based on the assumption that contador et al all remain unfit. All the gc contenders will be at the tdf (apart from nibali) and most will be on form; froome already is. If andy keeps progressing at the rate he is currently at then he would be back by ventoux. The only attacks I've seen from froome are in the final kms and without the armchair ride sky gives him to the finish he wouldn't be anywhere near as good. Most of the riders I say can beat froome attack from 10kms out and no one can catch them. When I see froome do that then I will agree

I have been impressed by Mollema recently. I did see the stage and Andy did ride well but doing that for three weeks is another thing. I would like to see Andy back to his best as it adds another dimension to the battles in the mountains but I think this year is too soon for him. I will be interested to see how Pinot goes in the Tour and TJVG is looking solid as well.

 

[nick101]

well froome has been massively over rated as he has only been able beat his rivals due to the reasons I mentioned before. the only time I have seen a single rival at reasonable form was at the tour of oman where rodriguez gained 10 seconds on froome in the final km of green mountain at the ToO but then faded the rest of that race. now if froome is only at 80% as your suggesting, he would be able to beat a mighty cancellara by at least a minute or two AND set a record for alpe dhuez, beating pantani's record if he was peaking at the tour like you also suggest. If you seriously think he can do that, that would be nothing short of miraculous to achieve over 7.3w/kg and suddenly gain 60+watts more than what cancellara can do in a time trial out of nowhere. that definitely doesn't make sense and is just not humanly possible so should immediately ring alarm bells. throughout his cycling career froome has at no point demonstrated anywhere near the ability to do this - the best he's done in a tt is +1min to cancellara and 6.4w/kg. btw i'm only theorising that if a contador on form was to race a froome on form then contador should theoretically win easily

 

[airstream]

you confuse top form with absolute career peak. If Contador can not push Verbier watts, it doesn't mean he's not on top form. Top form is a thing somebody can realistically reach this season. And what Contador will show in this Tour is his current top form, because it will be impossible to find excuses this time

 

[movingtarget]

you confuse top form with absolute career peak. If Contador can not push Verbier watts, it doesn't mean he's not on top form. Top form is a thing somebody can realistically reach this season. And what Contador will show in this Tour is his current top form, because it will be impossible to find excuses this time

C'mon there will always be excuses ! It's just that some people can't accept that their favourite riders can be beaten and instead of accepting it there will be some conspiracy theory or whatever. Or plaster on the knee etc... I hope there is no bad luck and the top GC riders fight it out but for some of them the best laid plans will be upset. It's the nature of the sport. The sooner people accept that the better. Just being able to recover and ride through any injury or illness for three weeks is hard enough let alone winning the race. The less talented riders are just happy to get to Paris.

 

[airstream]

C'mon there will always be excuses ! It's just that some people can't accept that their favourite riders can be beaten and instead of accepting it there will be some conspiracy theory or whatever. Or plaster on the knee etc... I hope there is no bad luck and the top GC riders fight it out but for some of them the best laid plans will be upset. It's the nature of the sport. The sooner people accept that the better. Just being able to recover and ride through any injury or illness for three weeks is hard enough let alone winning the race. The less talented riders are just happy to get to Paris.

I clearly understand what are you saying about. I meant these excuses won't work for you or me Surely, the talk was about riders' excuses, not fans' ones. As to fans, it is not a difficult thing to predict how it will go if he disappoints. I even have some versions already, for example, UCI and Dawg dared cripple AC career. Honestly, this factor alienated me frome Contador even more. His fans are not able to look up to stronger riders. Of course not all fans, but only he provokes such insanity.

 

[nick101]

verbier wasn't necessarily his career peak. he was then 26 so still has room to develop. contador has achieved similar power to that on climbs once or twice per season: 2007 - plateau de beille and the peyrsord; 2008 - angliru, plan de corones and Fuentes de invierno, 2011 - etna and 2012 - ancares. I have no idea whether he will reach that power this year or not all I know is that if he does he will beat froome . so far his form is far from his usual best. I hope that he can reach that form; it'll make it more interesting instead of the boring sky train then froomes inevitable attack in the final kms. I really do get sick of skys one dimensional tactics at races

 

[LaFlorecita]

C'mon there will always be excuses ! It's just that some people can't accept that their favourite riders can be beaten and instead of accepting it there will be some conspiracy theory or whatever. Or plaster on the knee etc... I hope there is no bad luck and the top GC riders fight it out but for some of them the best laid plans will be upset. It's the nature of the sport. The sooner people accept that the better. Just being able to recover and ride through any injury or illness for three weeks is hard enough let alone winning the race. The less talented riders are just happy to get to Paris.

You don't agree he is in bad shape this year? Because you don't think there should be excuses? You think we should only look at the results and not at the circumstances?

If so, lol, Alberto will lose over 12 minutes to Froome because he lost over 4 in Dauphiné. We shouldn't look at the circumstances and try to make excuses. Lol.

If Froome beats Alberto this year and it is clear Alberto isn't near his best, I won't hail Froome as the best GC rider of this generation. Period. Call that excuses, I call it common sense.

 

[airstream]

What a jealous outburst. Lol, Fleur hopefully Froome doesn't need your permission. Alright, let's put it this way, the 2013 Tour can have other deserved legit winners but Contador? ... Deadlock question.

 

[LaFlorecita]

What a jealous outburst. Lol, Fleur hopefully Froome doesn't need your permission. Alright, let's put it this way, the 2013 Tour can have other deserved legit winners but Contador?

Am I too "greedy" once again

And stop calling me fleur. You're not a friend nor do I like you so call me by my username.

 

[airstream]

Am I too "greedy" once again

And stop calling me fleur. You're not a friend nor do I like you so call me by my username.

You are totally out of common sense. If Froome wins the Tour it will be since he's the best. If you like to hail one and disparage others you should try to reason globally. If I were you say I'd wonder whether someone took the 2007 Tour because he was the best or because there wasn't Basso and Ras was kicked away from the race.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You are totally out of common sense. If Froome wins the Tour it will be since he's the best. If you like to hail one and disparage others you should try to reason globally. If I were you say I'd wonder whether someone took the 2007 Tour because he was the best or because there wasn't Basso and Ras was kicked away from the race.

Airstream I believe your hatred of everything Contador affects your reading and interpretation skills.

 

[wwabbit]

Cmon it's not trolling. Some young fan just shares his assumptions. It's ok.

It's just obnoxious to present assumptions as fact.
Especially if he doesn't use paragraphs...

 

[nick101]

yeah but if they are better than the other gc riders (who also are on form) then they are truly deserving. froome has been racing against people who aren't on form so you can hardly say froome is the best based just on the results. yeah contador should be fitter at the tour than the dauphine so should lose nowhere near as much time/could even gain time?
- he lost 2 and a half minutes to froome in the tt
4 seconds 1st mtn stage
11 seconds second mtn stage
1 minute and a half third mtn stage
you can hardly say froome is better based on the legitimate reasons which aren't excuses: contador had the worst tt of his career so its unlikely his tt's will be that bad, was working on the front for rogers and had to sit up for rogers. im not saying froome didn't deserve to win the dauphine because he did, he outsprinted contador and as far as I can tell he would have even out sprinted contador if he was peaking, he wouldn't have beaten him in the tt. but the time gained in the sprint would be enough to win overall
comparing data from previous years where contador has won a gt, he is nowhere near that form. if froome were to race an on form contador who was putting out similar power to his previous peaks then based on all the data froome has no chance of winning. to beat an on form contador he'd have to tt better than cancellara and climb better than pantani which just aint happening. ok so I don't argue froome could podium but against a peaking contador and schleck he'd narrowly manage third. if froome wins against someone who is peaking then he deserves to win, other wise it doesn't really count imo