Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Contadoraus Schlecks]

Cmon it's not trolling. Some young fan just shares his assumptions. It's ok. I just don't think Froome won the races at 100%, probably it was only about 70-80%. In addition if Contador had shown such a winning swing it could've added him only more favoritism. In Froome's situation we allegedly have the opposite thing. It's not very logical.



No one can't because a rider's goal is to win the race, not to show 100% of current capabities. It's 2 different things.



hehe, following this logic riders who have more titles can lose only if they are unfit... No man, best riders change each other and we are on the edge of another change this year.

I think Froome may be close to optimum fitness I.e. top form. However he has not yet been required to demonstrate that form. Lets face it, he won the Dauphine with ease and looked to have a fair bit more in the tank. He was dragging Porte for a few km and had it been a Tour stage where he was required to win, he would have done so with ease. Froome showed used 80% of his capabilities and at that the rest were nowhere to be seen

 

[nick101]

he didn't look like he was taking it easy on the mountain stages he won and podiumed in and the tt? he demonstrated his form in the tt where it is needed, in the sprint between him and contador and when he was working for porte so yes he has shown his form. and its as simple as this: do you think froome can tt better than cancellara and climb better than pantani?? because I certainly don't and that is what is required to beat contador when he is on form by the same amounts he currently is doing, and which you say will stay the same amounts

 

[gthx_gthx_]

he didn't look like he was taking it easy on the mountain stages he won and podiumed in and the tt? he demonstrated his form in the tt where it is needed, in the sprint between him and contador and when he was working for porte so yes he has shown his form. and its as simple as this: do you think froome can tt better than cancellara and climb better than pantani?? because I certainly dont

I agree , Besides (and i may be wrong here ) wasn't it Sky who said that their training methods involve keeping their leaders in good shape for the whole year ?

The decisive point for this TDF IMO is not Froome ' shape which i believe is close to his top shape. But what's more of a question mark is whether Contador will reach his "career peak" or not. Since Vuelta 2012 , he has never shown that he is capable of that. And that may result in total Froome domination.

 

[nick101]

I have a big question mark over andy. the rate at which he is progressing is massive. 1st stage in the tds he counldn't keep up, 2nd he managed to just, 3rd he didn't seem in too much difficulty and on the mountain stage he was one of the best climbers in comparison to being dropped on the mtf. if he keeps progressing at this rate he would definitely reach his best.

now if an on form schleck were to race against froome, then he would narrowly win because the time gained in the mountains over froome would be slightly more than what he would lose in the tt's. I don't discount contador off form either as it's more than possible that he could beat froome especially if the Spaniards conspire against him like at the vuelta. theres so many variables that could spell the disaster for skys one dimensional tactic that it could be a repeat of tirreno but the weather will probably be good so that is probably irrelevant. if strategically contador is better then he won't need the legs anyway.
2008 tdf carlos sastre was only fifth strongest but out smarted everyone. cadel was by far the strongest that year but on the alpe he couldn't chase sastre down as he would bring the other riders back to sastre also. the effort of closing the 2 min gap down would make him tired and open to attacks.

 

[The Hitch]

I'd say his climbing this year is better than the last couple years at least.

What about the year before that?

 

[Siriuscat]

Airstream, you obviously have nothing constructive to do this morning other than annoy my friend Fleur.. xx

You don't agree he is in bad shape this year? Because you don't think there should be excuses? You think we should only look at the results and not at the circumstances?

By that thought Airstream means that Lemond shouldn't have used the shooting incident to miss out on a couple of tours.....

If so, lol, Alberto will lose over 12 minutes to Froome because he lost over 4 in Dauphiné. We shouldn't look at the circumstances and try to make excuses. Lol.

Inference and suggestion....the trolls way of prognositcation. You can say that Andy might lose 1;30 to Evans in the Dauphine ITT then he'll lose 3 minutes during the same ITT during the Tour. Andy can't TT, Bertie on form is a cracking TT rider, not the best but damn good you cannot infer a similar outcome

If Froome beats Alberto this year and it is clear Alberto isn't near his best, I won't hail Froome as the best GC rider of this generation. Period. Call that excuses, I call it common sense.

Winning one GT (even by default) does not make you a great, just look at Andy... Winning two or three with a massive palmares of other wins makes it better but there's more to being great. Yet again Airstream is trying to bluster his way to painting Contador fans as the spawn of the devil (no not Didi) by confused logic and inference.

Tell you what Airstream....if you can keep schtum about Bertie between now and the end of the tour I'll put a Team Frandy avatar up for a month.

Alberto Contador is a GREAT GC Rider....... Chris Froome might be, IF he racks up a few wins....Andy Schleck never will be

 

[HCl+HN03]

this: do you think froome can tt better than cancellara and climb better than pantani?? because I certainly don't and that is what is required to beat contador when he is on form by the same amounts he currently is doing, and which you say will stay the same amounts

Since Contador neither is climbing better than Pantani and timetrialing better than Cancellara I dont think its required for Froome to do that either.

And by the way all the bull**** of who is on what precentage (not only meant to you) is actually quit silly. I know it started with Contador stating something, but I can assurare you thats its based on emossions and not science. And to estimate how good Froome are aint possible either because we dont know have good he can be. And even if we knew, it is still diffucult to calculate.

As a example, if Contador is in 75% shape. Does this mean that he in 100% shape could have ride the Dauphine time-trial in 56km/h?
(Martin who won it, ride in almost 53Km/h)

 

[Siriuscat]

As a example, if Contador is in 75% shape. Does this mean that he in 100% shape could have ride the Dauphine time-trial in 56km/h?

No..... as an athlete reaches peak fitness the percentage improvement becomes less but harder to achieve, ie improvement is not linear

 

[nick101]

2011 was his best climbing so far and he isn't climbing much worse. he put out 1700VAM on long climbs and is currently putting out the same so hasn't really gotten better, others have just gotten worse. there are numerous riders that could beat froome if they were peaking but they haven't. evans, andy and contador all could. as for andy not being great I disagree with that as he set the third fastest time on the zoncolan so that surely counts for something plus his attacks on the tourmalet and izoard were certainly some of the most exciting in recent years.i never said contador can climb better than pantani or tt better than cancellara. contador has proven on verbier he can climb better than pantani on anything less than 20 mintues based on raw data. a riders percentage is exponential i.e. it would be easier to go from 70% to 80% than 80% to 90%. yes but just because he's climbing better doesn't mean he'll win. and I also said that if contador was climbing at his usual best then that'd be much better than froome, I never said froome had to be that good to beat an unfit contador. look at evans vs satre at the tdf and nibali vs froome at tirreno. tactics are important also not jut legs

 

[HCl+HN03]

No..... as an athlete reaches peak fitness the percentage improvement becomes less but harder to achieve, ie improvement is not linear

Of course I know that, I was just trying to make a point. Its impossible to calculate the so called precentages, because noone knows what the function looks like.

 

[Siriuscat]

Of course I know that, I was just trying to make point. Its impossible to calculate the so called precentages, because know what the function looks like.

Soz....too many Airstream posts...

I suspect that given enough parameters and data it would be possible to model fitness levels based on wattage output, actually the maths wouldn't be too complicated....no point asking me though, i'm a physicist!

 

[airstream]

verbier wasn't necessarily his career peak. he was then 26 so still has room to develop. contador has achieved similar power to that on climbs once or twice per season: 2007 - plateau de beille and the peyrsord; 2008 - angliru, plan de corones and Fuentes de invierno, 2011 - etna and 2012 - ancares.

strongly doubt in rightness of it but ok

I have no idea whether he will reach that power this year or not all I know is that if he does he will beat froome

no one knows it.

I really do get sick of skys one dimensional tactics at races

we got that at once.

 

[airstream]

Sirius cat calm down. Though, I can not help wondering why you continue to appeal to such dumb and uninformed forum member like me.

if froome wins against someone who is peaking then he deserves to win, other wise it doesn't really count imo

how are you gonna to find out whether froome is better than them or they are off form, if froome wins the race?

 

[Siriuscat]

2011 was his best climbing so far and he isn't climbing much worse. he put out 1700VAM on long climbs and is currently putting out the same so hasn't really gotten better, others have just gotten worse. there are numerous riders that could beat froome if they were peaking but they haven't. evans, andy and contador all could. as for andy not being great I disagree with that as he set the third fastest time on the zoncolan so that surely counts for something plus his attacks on the tourmalet and izoard were certainly some of the most exciting in recent years.i never said contador can climb better than pantani or tt better than cancellara. contador has proven on verbier he can climb better than pantani on anything less than 20 mintues based on raw data. a riders percentage is exponential i.e. it would be easier to go from 70% to 80% than 80% to 90%.

Andy's career does have some spurious one offs a single run up Zoncolan or one attack on one mountain stage of the Tour does not make him great though the 2011 Galibier stage was superb (more of that kind of stuff I might like the guy)

 

[Siriuscat]

Sirius cat calm down. Though, I can not help wondering why you continue to appeal to such dumb and uninformed forum member like me.

Because you're there spouting your nonsense...it's all it takes.

 

[nick101]

Andy's career does have some spurious one offs a single run up Zoncolan or one attack on one mountain stage of the Tour does not make him great though the 2011 Galibier stage was superb (more of that kind of stuff I might like the guy)

based on that logic pantani is not the greatest climber who ever lived?? his alpe d'huez times are what defines him as a rider. as for whether froome is better - he will certainly beat them if they cannot replicate their climbing abilities at previous peaks but raw data suggests when peaking froome wouldn't beat schleck or contador also peaking. unless of course froome can suddenly gain pantani legs. if I were to compare climbing speed and watt/kg to previous peaks then i could easily determine whether they were off form or not

 

[Siriuscat]

Sirius cat calm down. Though, I can not help wondering why you continue to appeal to such dumb and uninformed forum member like me.

Because you're there spouting your nonsense....it's all it takes!!

how are you gonna to find out whether froome is better than them or they are off form, if froome wins the race?

Finally a statement I can agree with. If Froome proves the strongest in the tour then it's not possible to know whether he's better or not, only stronger.

 

[HCl+HN03]

Im not fully aware how this wattage output is meassured. But I guess, the easiser the stage is the better wattage output, is this correct? I have hard to belive that wattage output actually can be used as a exact tool to calculate a riders status. I certainly hope it aint, because then the sport would be extremly boring.

i never said contador can climb better than pantani or tt better than cancellara.

You said Froome had to it to beat a Contador in form, for that to be possible I pressume Contador at least have to acheive one of these things.

contador has proven on verbier he can climb better than pantani

As I argud, i dont see this as a proof Contador climeb better than Pantani would have.

 

[Lanark]

Im not fully aware how this wattage output is meassured. But I guess, the easiser the stage is the better wattage output, is this correct? I have hard to belive that wattage output actually can be used as a exact tool to calculate a riders status. I certainly hope it aint, because then the sport would be extremly boring.


You said Froome had to it to beat a Contador in form, for that to be possible I pressume Contador at least have to acheive one of these things.


As I argud, i dont see this as a proof Contador climeb better than Pantani would have.

It goes without saying that Pantani was a far superior climber to Contador. A ton of people where in those days, it's useless to compare to the 90's.

Besides, a more accurate comparison for the current situation is that if you want to beat Contador you have to be a better climber than Valverde and Rodriguez, which I think Froome is.

 

[Siriuscat]

based on that logic pantani is not the greatest climber who ever lived?? his alpe d'huez times are what defines him as a rider

Correct he's not, incredible rider as he was there are others equally as good if not better; Charly Gaul, lucien van Impe, Merckx, Coppi, Bartali, Jose Maria Jiminez, bahamontes, Massignan..... need I go on.

Pantani is one of my favourite riders of all time and a great climber but he only ever won a single Mountains Classification, other won this competition WHILST winning GC's.

In Contador terms...it's his thread; he is a great climber but more so he is a truly great GC rider, that takes more than climbing

 

[nick101]

well pantani attacks from the foot of a climb and didn't slow down at all and he kept surging. pantani set the fastest alpe d'huez climb in comparison to other riders you have mentioned. contador attacks further up but on verbier managed to put out a much higher climbing ascent rate than pantani ever achieved. froome isn't better than climber than rodriguez or valverde - based on the fact he usually attacks at the top of a climb then both would beat him as their sprint is far superior to froomes. when I was saying that froome would have to climb like pantani I was referring to the fact that contador essentially out climbed pantani on verbier. and froome is being illustrated as able to gain minutes on contador in the tour I was merely saying how he would have to ride in order to achieve that and the fact that people are saying he is VERY unfit (70-80%). the HARDER the stage the HIGHER the wattage output. riders put out a higher wattage on a 10% climb than a 6% climb. as for watt/kg measurement - it can be calculated by dividing the VAM (verticle metres ascended per hour) by a specific constant of proportionality relating to the particular climb. this constant is usually between 250 to 350 depending on the climb

 

[Lanark]

well pantani attacks from the foot of a climb and didn't slow down at all and he kept surging. pantani set the fastest alpe d'huez climb in comparison to other riders you have mentioned. contador attacks further up but on verbier managed to put out a much higher climbing ascent rate than pantani ever achieved. froome isn't better than rodriguez - based on the fact he usually attacks at the top of a climb then rodriguez would beat him as his sprint is far superior to froomes. when I was saying that froome would have to climb like pantani I was referring to the fact that contador essentially out climbed pantani on verbier. and froome is being illustrated as able to gain minutes on contador in the tour I was merely saying how he would have to ride in order to achieve that and the fact that people are saying he is VERY unfit (70-80%)

Please stop talking nonsense. Pantani could have dropped Contador on any mountain wherever he wanted. That's no slight to Contador, it's just a sign of the times they rode in. VAM is meaningless, Pantani produced W/KG on long climbs that nobody in the current peloton can even dream of.

 

[nick101]

contador got close with his 7w/kg pantani managed 7.3w/kg. so contador did get quite close actually. I totally agree that contador wouldn't be strong enough to keep up and maintain such a high wattage if pantani were to attack from the foot of alpe d'huez and contador was racing against pantani

 

[Lanark]

contador got close with his 7w/kg pantani managed 7.3w/kg. so contador did get quite close actually. I totally agree that contador wouldn't be strong enough to keep up and maintain such a high wattage if pantani were to attack from the foot of alpe d'huez and contador was racing against pantani

Not, it's not quite close. Pantani did 7.25w/kg on a 35 minute climb, Contador didn't even reach that on a 20 minute climb (where even Andy Schleck reached 6.8 w/kg, guess he is pretty close to Pantani as well). Pantani in top shape would have gained 3 to 4 minutes on the Alpe and Ventoux alone. There is no comparison, it's just silly to even suggest it.

 

[nick101]

I was talking about the fact that contador got close to the record on any climb (verbier is cat 1). pantani seemed to be suited to longer climbs than verbier as far as I can tell, that were more difficult. I already said pantani would out easily climb them on a climb like the alpe as holding such a high wattage for 30+ minutes isn't possible for either of them