Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[rick james]

Re: Re:

For Berto and Porte the difference was too much. It was bad TT from Contador however you look at it, he lost to freaking Nairo Quintana, probably the first time ever.

Which just shows they were probably super careful

don't know if its true but I've read the Froome and Thomas put more time on the other GC guys on the long straight on the second half of the TT stage

They did, but you'd also expect motors like that do to that on a straight road. They are simply better. Question if how much these skin suits mattered.

As per my reference to swiming above:

"Cyclingnews looked to clarify the situation with Team Sky's Tim Kerrison outside the team bus after journalists were told by one of the team's directors that the former swimming coach may know more on the situation. The request was denied, with an angered Kerrison stating that team protocol was for journalists to check with the team's press officer before interviews could be granted. Not for the first time it was left to the riders to face up to questions on behalf of the team management."

Clearly there is some benefit, just how much? All the teams need to be wearing this stuff, or none should be allowed.

well the other teams should be wearing if it gains so much time, seems they have taken the hump because a marginal gain has left them behind :lol:

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Doesn't matter anyway, UCI approved and folk need to move on from it

That's got nothing to do with the issue I raised and Trek certainly won't be just "moving on," when there is still the Marsailles TT.

The point was if Contador (and the other GC guys) lost time because of not wearing these skinsuits, then the differnence in actual fitness may not be so great as it first appeared. If so, then there is hope for the mountains.

PS: If there is that much advantage gained, then all the teams should have access to the same kit, otherwise the results are falsified. The UCI should consider this in its ruling. It's not the bike, but the rider himself that's modified.

As I said earlier, the time difference from Froome to majority of GC contenders wasn't extraordinary high. I.e. Bardet would've lost just above 2m in 40km TT with the pace tomorrow, which sounds about par comparing previous years.

For Berto and Porte the difference was too much. It was bad TT from Contador however you look at it, he lost to freaking Nairo Quintana, probably the first time ever.

But my point was that if the skinsuits gave Sky an advantage, Contador was perhaps less poor than it seemed. While taking it slow in the corners also reflected his ride against Quintana and Aru, for that matter, who both seemed to have been risking more in the curves.

Otherwise AC just rode terribly and his form doesn't leave much to be optimistic about for the mountains, or perhaps not.

Why would only Contador (and Porte) suffer the skinsuit effect againts Sky while all the rest of GC contenders were more or less in line against Froome compared to history (Yates actually even better)?

I don't think the skinsuit gives 20sec advantage spesifically against Conti? That would be a hellava skinsuit though

 

[bajbar]

Re: Re:

For Berto and Porte the difference was too much. It was bad TT from Contador however you look at it, he lost to freaking Nairo Quintana, probably the first time ever.

Which just shows they were probably super careful

don't know if its true but I've read the Froome and Thomas put more time on the other GC guys on the long straight on the second half of the TT stage

They did, but you'd also expect motors like that do to that on a straight road. They are simply better. Question if how much these skin suits mattered.

I had too much time today and have timed the last 400 (or 350 meters) of the TT. Contador needed 26 seconds to complete te section, Quintana 27 seconds, while Froome did it in 24 seconds. Which means he gained 2-3 seconds only in the last 400 meters!! That goes hand to hand with what Flo said - that Contador lost 7 seconds in the last 1,5 km. It would male sense that the super high-tech suits would make the biggest difference in the straight last section. Froome, Thomas and Kyrienka were all super fast in the second part...

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

I highly doubt 20 seconds

Nobody knows except the people that did the product development and wind tunnel tests. Clearly they think they've significantly enhanced performance, which means we are probably not dealing with just a few seconds. The article said between 18-25. If that's true, it's a big deal.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Doesn't matter anyway, UCI approved and folk need to move on from it

That's got nothing to do with the issue I raised and Trek certainly won't be just "moving on," when there is still the Marsailles TT.

The point was if Contador (and the other GC guys) lost time because of not wearing these skinsuits, then the differnence in actual fitness may not be so great as it first appeared. If so, then there is hope for the mountains.

PS: If there is that much advantage gained, then all the teams should have access to the same kit, otherwise the results are falsified. The UCI should consider this in its ruling. It's not the bike, but the rider himself that's modified.

As I said earlier, the time difference from Froome to majority of GC contenders wasn't extraordinary high. I.e. Bardet would've lost just above 2m in 40km TT with the pace tomorrow, which sounds about par comparing previous years.

For Berto and Porte the difference was too much. It was bad TT from Contador however you look at it, he lost to freaking Nairo Quintana, probably the first time ever.

But my point was that if the skinsuits gave Sky an advantage, Contador was perhaps less poor than it seemed. While taking it slow in the corners also reflected his ride against Quintana and Aru, for that matter, who both seemed to have been risking more in the curves.

Otherwise AC just rode terribly and his form doesn't leave much to be optimistic about for the mountains, or perhaps not.

Why would only Contador (and Porte) suffer the skinsuit effect againts Sky while all the rest of GC contenders were more or less in line against Froome compared to history (Yates actually even better)?

I don't think the skinsuit gives 20sec advantage spesifically against Conti? That would be a hellava skinsuit though

Well both Contador and Porte rode decidedly conservatively, which may account for being not much better, or worse, than Quintana and Aru. Wet conditions and major crashes, definitely influence how both tackled the course. I frankly don't know about Yates, though he's evidently not a bad TTer. Could have just done a really good performance.

On Aru's account, he's in fine form and perhaps Quintana is better than at the Giro.

 

[bambino]

Exactly, so regardless of Sky having skinsuit-edge or not, Berto and Porte did ride a bad TT comparing to all other GC contenders taking into account their history in TT's.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

I highly doubt 20 seconds

Nobody knows except the people that did the product development and wind tunnel tests. Clearly they think they've significantly enhanced performance, which means we are probably not dealing with just a few seconds. The article said between 18-25. If that's true, it's a big deal.

what? if sky thinks it will help you with 00.1 of a second they would wear it

 

[LaFlorecita]

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

 

[TheYouyou7]

Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

+1

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Exactly, so regardless of Sky having skinsuit-edge or not, Berto and Porte did ride a bad TT comparing to all other GC contenders taking into account their history in TT's.

Exactly what? Conservative riding, together with Aru and perhaps Quintana too being on their game, might account for Contador's and Porte's apparently poor performances against them.

Now if the skinsuit gave Froome an advantage, then without it Aru and Quintana would have been closer to him, which would further confirm their great condition.

I can attest that Aru is at the best level he's ever been. Don't know about Quintana though.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

That's what I think too. Though again, how much difference do the bumps in the skinsuit make?

 

[Valv.Piti]

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Or perhaps simply by his TdF legs

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

Right but 42 seconds accumlated over 14k is still surprising. I figure between 18 and 25 would have been more to be expected. :razz:

 

[bambino]

Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

 

[rick james]

Re:

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

with extra wings built in for more speed.......of course

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

His TT skills were also not that great in the opening TT of the 2015 Tour.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

You need to consider, though, that Aru definitely and Fulgsang too have increased their level considerably. Yates has apparently done so as well and Quintana we know can be stronger in his second GT.

Froome did stress that this year his rivals would be stronger. I'm hoping this assessment is right, so he is attackable in the mountains. Contador did look quite lean in the opening pictures. Surely he would not have shown up to be dominated the rising crew. Perhaps he's better than the TT showed.

 

[silvergrenade]

Already posted in Team SKY Thread:
http://inrng.com/2017/07/team-sky-new-skinsuit/
Conclusion:
It’s interesting how things happen in May and almost nobody notices. When it happens in July it becomes a hot topic, add Team Sky it gets hotter still. This time the magic material in question may have saved a few seconds but it’s neither new nor unique to Team Sky, Movistar do too and perhaps other teams do as well if we cared to zoom in on their clothing. The rule that regulates this is ambiguous. Maybe by the time the race reaches Marseille we’ll see the answer by looking at who wears what.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

You need to consider, though, that Aru definitely and Fulgsang too have increased their level considerably. Yates has apparently done so as well and Quintana we know can be stronger in his second GT.

Froome did stress that this year his rivals would be stronger. I'm hoping this assessment is right, so he is attackable in the mountains. Contador did look quite lean in the opening pictures. Surely he would not have shown up to be dominated the rising crew. Perhaps he's better than the TT showed.

Yes, i.e Aru is better this year, and he was better in stage 1 compared to last year. He lost around 3m 25s to Froome last year in roughly 35km flat TT... so no news there either.

Look, I think you get me wrong. I'm not saying Berto is in bad shape. I'm saying he delivered bad TT and there are most probably other factors impacting why that was the case (avoid crashes). But at the same time I'm trying to point out the skinsuit just sounds to me too easy explanation and actually trying to prove there wasn't anything substantially odd on those times against majority of the field when you compare to Froome.

 

[rick james]

Thomas gives out a challenge...feel free to ask him

'You can borrow it if you want and see what time you do

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Already posted in Team SKY Thread:
http://inrng.com/2017/07/team-sky-new-skinsuit/
Conclusion:
It’s interesting how things happen in May and almost nobody notices. When it happens in July it becomes a hot topic, add Team Sky it gets hotter still. This time the magic material in question may have saved a few seconds but it’s neither new nor unique to Team Sky, Movistar do too and perhaps other teams do as well if we cared to zoom in on their clothing. The rule that regulates this is ambiguous. Maybe by the time the race reaches Marseille we’ll see the answer by looking at who wears what.

Sky will say whatever is most convenient to Sky. At the Giro they were quite fast too and who is to say if what Movistar wears is the same. I got the impression Sky is using something thus far pretty exclusive.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

You need to consider, though, that Aru definitely and Fulgsang too have increased their level considerably. Yates has apparently done so as well and Quintana we know can be stronger in his second GT.

Froome did stress that this year his rivals would be stronger. I'm hoping this assessment is right, so he is attackable in the mountains. Contador did look quite lean in the opening pictures. Surely he would not have shown up to be dominated the rising crew. Perhaps he's better than the TT showed.

Yes, i.e Aru is better this year, and he was better in stage 1 compared to last year. He lost around 3m 25s to Froome last year in roughly 35km flat TT... so no news there either.

You keep saying, however, that Contador's performance was so terrible using Aru (and Quintana) as the gauge, while acknowledging Aru was better this time against Froome. Do you fail to see this also applies to Aru in relation to Contador, who also rode more conservatively thus giving away more time?

 

[Galic Ho]

Re:

We also have to attribute their respective rides to the fact that Thomas and Froome simply have better engine on the flat sections.

Are Sky able to wear these new suits on every stage?

If yes, then it's going to possibly be advantageous.

But at the end of the day, over any parcours, more horsepower is the biggest trump card to play.

Tyre choice is probably the biggest mechanical advantage other than aerodynamic position that impacted the times OTHER than power.

Everyone will choose more power over fancy stripes on racing jerseys because that matters more.

The wording of the rule in the UCI regulations is really poor and loose.

Sky and the ASO are milking that for all it's worth. One adverb/noun out of place and the meaning of that rule switches. It would appear it's legal, because it's within the fabrication process and manufacturing of the article of clothing.

Personally, I'd have taken the other meaning, and presumed that makes it an addition that creates a "vortex."

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Porte and Contador's performance compared to Quintana, Martin, Aru can be explained by their extremely cautious approach. Froome's massive gain on all of them can be explained both by taking more risks and the bumps on the skinsuit.

Agreed, but I do want to point out still that if Froome got 20sec advantage by the skinsuit, then he actually delivered pretty awful performance by his standards.

What I'm trying to say is that looking back TDF TT history, vast majority delivered as in the past against Froome. Only 2 delivered worse than in past.

So which is more propable, Froome got 20sec advantage on skinsuit, but has actually lost about 50% of his TT advantage against Yates, Nairo, Dan, Aru, Fuglsang and Bardet - OR Berto and Porte just delivered bad TT?

You need to consider, though, that Aru definitely and Fulgsang too have increased their level considerably. Yates has apparently done so as well and Quintana we know can be stronger in his second GT.

Froome did stress that this year his rivals would be stronger. I'm hoping this assessment is right, so he is attackable in the mountains. Contador did look quite lean in the opening pictures. Surely he would not have shown up to be dominated the rising crew. Perhaps he's better than the TT showed.

Yes, i.e Aru is better this year, and he was better in stage 1 compared to last year. He lost around 3m 25s to Froome last year in roughly 35km flat TT... so no news there either.

You keep saying, however, that Contador's performance was so terrible using Aru (and Quintana) as the gauge, while acknowledging Aru was better this time against Froome. Do you fail to see this also applies to Aru in relation to Contador, who also rode more conservatively thus giving away more time?

And you fail to see that I'm only trying to tell the 20sec skinsuit advantage does not seem plausible given the TT history of these competitors in the field + saying Berto delivered bad TT. I've never said he delievered badly because of bad form, I've always agreed he was probably way too cautios. But it is bad TT regardless as ultimately only the clock measures whether it is good or bad.