Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Publicus]

Yes, but the Tour route was always easier than the Giro one, nonetheless due to this fact it doesn't get easier to win the Tour.

So the route is easier and the competition (in your words) was essentially no different, but still one cannot draw the conclusion that the 2012 Tour was easier to win than the 2011 Giro? Just want to make sure I'm following your "logic."

 

[Publicus]

He didn't race the 2009 Giro. I'm assuming you mean the 2008 Giro? No, I don't think if he had come into the 2012 Tour with the lack of ideal preparation that was his form going into the 2008 Giro and with this very same parcours, that he would've won. In order for him to be able to win the 2012 Tour he would've needed to attack relentlessly and be at his best in the tt's and I don't recall him ever attacking in the 2008 Giro.

He was referencing the 2011 Giro.

 

[gustienordic]

So the route is easier and the competition (in your words) was essentially no different, but still one cannot draw the conclusion that the 2012 Tour was easier to win than the 2011 Giro? Just want to make sure I'm following your "logic."

It was easier for Wiggins to win, but Contador would have had a harder time winning than in 2011 Giro. For Contador to have beaten Wiggo he would have had to put in a monster attack, but I think he could've done it.

 

[Angliru]

Yes, but the Tour route was always easier than the Giro one, nonetheless due to this fact it doesn't get easier to win the Tour.

My favourite quote: "The Giro climbs are steeper, but the Tour ones are passed as twice as fast". Ivan Basso, before the 2005 Tour, if I recall precise date correctly.

...and of course that is a massive exaggeration.

 

[airstream]

So the route is easier and the competition (in your words) was essentially no different, but still one cannot draw the conclusion that the 2012 Tour was easier to win than the 2011 Giro? Just want to make sure I'm following your "logic."

No, I was equaling only "competition". We can not reason what would have been harder and for who because there were different competitors that eventually predermine how it's hard. The 2012 Tour rivarly was the weakest since 2002 at least. The Giro 2011 one was very strong by the Giro standarts. What of 2 was stronger... That's the matter in which difficult to come to a consensus.

 

[Publicus]

It was easier for Wiggins to win, but Contador would have had a harder time winning than in 2011 Giro. For Contador to have beaten Wiggo he would have had to put in a monster attack, but I think he could've done it.

I'm only speaking as to relative values. 2011 Giro was a tougher course with a similar level of competition (according to Airstream), it would seem to me, the logical conclusion, is that it was tougher to win.

As it relates to Contador's chances at the 2012 Tour, I suspect he would have done just what you noted above, attack . . . relentlessly to gain as much time as possible to offset the inevitable losses he would incur to Wiggins in the ITTs. Conversely, I don't see a way Wiggins wins the 2011 Giro. Vroome maybe. Wiggins, no way.

 

[Publicus]

No, I was equaling only "competition". We can not reason what would have been harder and for who because there were different competitors that eventually predermine how it's hard.

I don't about Ivan's quote, but here's how the 2011 Giro and 2012 Tour stack up purely on distance and time to complete:

Giro
Distance= 3,474 km
Winning time= 84 hours 5 minutes 14 seconds
Avg kmh= 41.31 kmh

Tour
Distance= 3,511
Winning time= 87 hours 34 minutes 42 seconds
Avg kmh= 40.08 kmh

Thinking about the differences in the two courses, I have to say I was a bit surprised.

 

[Angliru]

He was referencing the 2011 Giro.

Thanks. I found that out after my posting and then continuing to read the thread.

Contador was in rare form in the 2011 Giro. He cerainly would've brought some pain to Wiggins in the mountains of the Tour and derailed the Sky train, unlike the cakewalk Wiggins had for the most part without Contador's presence. Unfortunately the opportunities to take back time lost in the tt's were few and far between. There couldn't have been a more ideal parcours for a Wiggins Tour win as if Sky had secretly funded the event themselves. I think an audit is in order.

@Airstream: Had Andy been in the form that he had in 2010, been able to race the 2012 Tour with a well prepared Frank and dealt with a drama-less season with Bruyneel and Shack/Nissan/Trek, do think that Andy could've made things interesting and threatened Wiggins/Froome/Sky's stranglehold on the race and the top step of the podium?

 

[gustienordic]

I don't about Ivan's quote, but here's how the 2011 Giro and 2012 Tour stack up purely on distance and time to complete:

Giro
Distance= 3,474 km
Winning time= 84 hours 5 minutes 14 seconds
Avg kmh= 41.31 kmh

Tour
Distance= 3,511
Winning time= 87 hours 34 minutes 42 seconds
Avg kmh= 40.08 kmh

Thinking about the differences in the two courses, I have to say I was a bit surprised.

This is crazy! That course was soo much harder than the Tour's and of course you had very few MTFs which make a pretty big difference in the speed of the race...

 

[airstream]

...and of course that is a massive exaggeration.

It's figurative but it works. A particular Giro can be equal to the Tour by leaders, but it'll never be close by squads as a whole. Only captains can not create that hypothetical "as twice as fast".

 

[Miburo]

It's really annoying when journalists say Contador was suspended because he used doping.

That's how it always stands in the articles, get your facts straight.

I'm sure GB will fire a lot of times at Contador next year and this year prob aswell.

I already see it coming "Oh wiggins doesn't have the same condition, you can see that because he didn't win paris-nice or dauphine"

Obviously they'll forget that's because Contador prob won it lol

Without Contador Wiggins is the best in 1 week stages for sure, he can just follow and finish it off in the TT. Contador is a big problem in that pattern.

2012 is (was) his year, Wiggins exploit it greatly.

 

[ElChingon]

Pre Stage line up:

 

[Cimber]

I don't about Ivan's quote, but here's how the 2011 Giro and 2012 Tour stack up purely on distance and time to complete:

Giro
Distance= 3,474 km
Winning time= 84 hours 5 minutes 14 seconds
Avg kmh= 41.31 kmh

Tour
Distance= 3,511
Winning time= 87 hours 34 minutes 42 seconds
Avg kmh= 40.08 kmh

Thinking about the differences in the two courses, I have to say I was a bit surprised.

Thats very surprising tbh.

I got no doubt that the Tour will feel harder cos of the intense media coverage and all. Still the 2012 Tour was subpar and Wiggo had it "easy" (relatively speaking) due to the lack of serious contenders.

 

[Cimber]

It's really annoying when journalists say Contador was suspended because he used doping.

That's how it always stands in the articles, get your facts straight.

.

Indeed. Annoys me too when he was infact banned under the strict liability rule for what was ruled to be most likely a food supplement. But that doesnt make good headlines But ´lets not open up a discussion that belongs in the clinic

 

[jens_attacks]

This is crazy! That course was soo much harder than the Tour's and of course you had very few MTFs which make a pretty big difference in the speed of the race...

the average speed of giro 2011 was not 41 km/h of course,it was around 39 km/h which is kind of stratospheric for that kind of route

in my opinion the tour is ridden the fastest but not by much in comparison to giro. and now,from all the riders accounts,vuelta in that heat ridden very fast is almost if not harder than le tour.

don't forget that that quote is from way back.now both giro and vuelta are ridden very fast.it was a hyperbole anyway




airstream as always wants to put some fire in this lovely thread.he still has a point though
no one barring his staff,knows froomy's limits. i feel that in the vuelta he will be way stronger than in le tour.and there was no slowmo riding in france either(mente,belles filles,the favourites riding peyresourde 2 seconds faster than alberto and rasmussen in 2007 etc). now imagine that froomy rode all these mountains just looking back and breaking

alberto can easily drop nibali,jurgen,or wiggo.no doubt
froomy?i guess we'll find out

 

[airstream]

The prime of the Vuelta was about 98-05 I think. Everyone but LA went there and fought. Let's not forget that the cosmic 2004 Sierra Nevada and the unofficial TT record set by Plaza occurred exactly in the Vuelta. + indescribable clash on Pajares which is impossible to characterize with any numbers. Medium wattages on MTFs in the Giro, Tour and Vuelta may be the same - though the 2007 Tour stands apart even in this regard - but only Tour can offer absolutely rabid intensity on flat and hills that all the favourites endure very differently. By the way, Contador told something like that too before the 2011 Giro. I mean something like Basso.

Yep, the Vuelta will answer many questions.

 

[Kwibus]

I don't about Ivan's quote, but here's how the 2011 Giro and 2012 Tour stack up purely on distance and time to complete:

Giro
Distance= 3,474 km
Winning time= 84 hours 5 minutes 14 seconds
Avg kmh= 41.31 kmh

Tour
Distance= 3,511
Winning time= 87 hours 34 minutes 42 seconds
Avg kmh= 40.08 kmh

Thinking about the differences in the two courses, I have to say I was a bit surprised.

This is stunning really.
So much for the theory that they ride the TdF faster.

 

[Netserk]

I don't about Ivan's quote, but here's how the 2011 Giro and 2012 Tour stack up purely on distance and time to complete:

Giro
Distance= 3,474 km
Winning time= 84 hours 5 minutes 14 seconds
Avg kmh= 41.31 kmh

Tour
Distance= 3,511
Winning time= 87 hours 34 minutes 42 seconds
Avg kmh= 40.08 kmh

Thinking about the differences in the two courses, I have to say I was a bit surprised.

And then remember the transfers that year!

 

[stampedingviking]

Yup, this thread proves it again. Contador IS the defining cyclist of this generation, the Alpha, the legend.

The proven cheat.

 

[Angliru]

The prime of the Vuelta was about 98-05 I think. Everyone but LA went there and fought. Let's us not forget that the cosmic 2004 Sierra Nevada and the unofficial TT record set by Plaza occurred exactly in the Vuelta. + indescribable clash on Pajares which is impossible to characterize with any numbers. Medium wattages on MTFs in the Giro, Tour and Vuelta may be the same - though the 2007 Tour stands apart even in this regard - but only Tour can offer absolutely rabid intensity on flat and hills that all the favourites endure very differently. By the way, Contador told something like that too before the 2011 Giro. I mean something like Basso.

Yep, the Vuelta will answer many questions.

Armstrong rode it the year before he won his first Tour (1998) as a way to see if he were capable of contending in a grand tour. I believe he finished 4th.

You imply that quality stage racers don't currently "fight" for the win at the Vuelta when you have Evans, Menchov, Nibali, Gesink, Wiggins/Froome, Valverde, Sanchez, Purito, JVdB all in the past few years taking a serious stab at the Vuelta. In the years that you mention I can't see it as being any different in terms of the level of competition but then you had Aitor Gonzalez winning the Vuelta in 2002. I would say that the level of competition has risen at the Vuelta since 2005, not declined and this applies to all aspects of racing at the Vuelta. With the implimentation of the pro tour/world tour it would appear that the level of competition and intensity has risen as result of the need for teams (and riders) to pick up points to remain eligible for the PT/WT (teams) and for their maintaining or raising their own value (individual riders), sometimes after a disappointing Tour or season in general.

 

[Netserk]

The prime of the Vuelta was about 98-05 I think. Everyone but LA went there and fought. Let's not forget that the cosmic 2004 Sierra Nevada and the unofficial TT record set by Plaza occurred exactly in the Vuelta. + indescribable clash on Pajares which is impossible to characterize with any numbers. Medium wattages on MTFs in the Giro, Tour and Vuelta may be the same - though the 2007 Tour stands apart even in this regard - but only Tour can offer absolutely rabid intensity on flat and hills that all the favourites endure very differently. By the way, Contador told something like that too before the 2011 Giro. I mean something like Basso.

Yep, the Vuelta will answer many questions.

And Der Jan and Basso did so too after contending the tour

 

[El Pistolero]

The best Vuelta was '99.

 

[Eshnar]

Yes, but the Tour route was always easier than the Giro one, nonetheless due to this fact it doesn't get easier to win the Tour.

My favourite quote: "The Giro climbs are steeper, but the Tour ones are passed as twice as fast". Ivan Basso, before the 2005 Tour, if I recall precise date correctly.

Before 2005 the Giro had a terrible field overall so that's definitely possible. But things have changed. You shouldn't quote something from 7 years ago like it's reliable

 

[Carols]

The proven cheat.

STOP putting clinic stuff in here...go where u can call whoever you want names.

 

[nogav1ca]

Clenbuterol is a steroid?

Haven't really found anything after a (really) quick search, but looking at wikipedia picture, I would say it's not a steroid as it doesn't have steroid ring. It looks more like an amino acid derivate.