Alberto Contador suspended until August 2012 (loses all results July 2010 - Jan 2012)

[LaFlorecita]

guilty or not guilty, he probably didn't have the means to appeal to CAS and must have known it was a lost case anyhow, especially without his own federation's backup.

So contador vs. Li: two similar cases on the surface, but one highprofile racer who manages to get support from his federation and buy himself the
best lawyers in town, and one low-profile racer, thrown under the bus.

In all objectivity, we know Dirty is one of the bigger dopers out there, yet owing to his fortune (which he earned by cheating) he almost manages to skate free for the second time in a row (miraculously having escaped Puerto-sanctions).

Maybe it's better if you start showing some of that objectivity.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Because you told me to focus on content, I'll write down my thoughts about your post.

So contador vs. Li: two similar cases on the surface, but one highprofile racer who manages to get support from his federation and buy himself the
best lawyers in town, and one low-profile racer, thrown under the bus.

So what are you saying? It's wrong that Alberto spends a lot of money on defending himself? He should have just accepted a suspension? That's bulls.hit. If you had been in the same position as him, guilty or not, you would have done the same.

In all objectivity, we know Alberto is one of the bigger dopers out there

No I don't know that, and you don't know either, but if he's doping, then I'm sure he isn't doping more than any of his opponents.

, yet owing to his fortune (which he earned by cheating)

You bring up an interesting point.

Alberto is talented. One of the most talented riders in the peloton. That much is clear when you look at his results as a young guy. Let's assume everyone is doping to more or less the same extent.
i)If he hadn't doped, he would still be a great rider just not as exceptional as he is now.
ii)I think we can safely say Alberto would've been the best in a completely clean peloton too.

he almost manages to skate free for the second time in a row (miraculously having escaped Puerto-sanctions).

There was nothing miraculous about it. He got interrogated, and was done in 15 minutes. Apparently the investigators didn't feel the need to investigate him further. Now we can make up all sorts of conspiracy theories, but the truth is, we don't know a thing about it.

 

[Nilsson]

No, it's your "arguments" or rather your ability to look for excuse upon excuse upon excuse (however irrelevant they actually are) for the different treatment that are getting us nowhere.

No excuses, only thoughtful consideration instead of taking the same roundabout over and over...

And it's your tactic of saying that I am wrong, I don't understand etc combined with your ability to only very selectively answer my questions that inevitably leads to frustration.

Very selectively? That must be the first time that anyone has said something like that to me. What did I not answer or consider?

And you are free to repeat yourself again, because so far you have failed to come up with anything that even remotely suggests that my "judgement" is wrong or why it is ok that the UCI didn't want to look deeper into Li's positive.

I came up with tons of arguments why the two cases are different. Most importantly the data and fact case available.

Li tested positive, out of the blue, and thus it was a pretty standard doping case. The small amount gave him the opportunity to say it was likely contaminated meat but, because it was 'out of the blue', every option is possible, making it a standard case and (procedural) comparable to a normal EPO case or a case like Kolobnev's...

Contador tested positve at a small amount in a series of negatives, had a barely matching blood sample (1 pg/ml) in the morning, all pointing to some kind of contamination (whether it's a transfusion, a piece of meat or a supplement) and also, let's not forget, had a high level of DEHP in his urine the day before. In short, a completely different case, which needed more research a different approach and contacting WADA...

No spinning on my side. I am of the opinion that this is basic knowledge about a case that isn't standard...

 

[roundabout]

No excuses, only thoughtful consideration instead of taking the same roundabout over and over...



Very selectively? That must be the first time that anyone has said something like that to me. What did I not answer or consider?



I came up with tons of arguments why the two cases are different. Most importantly the data and fact case available.

Li tested positive, out of the blue, and thus it was a pretty standard doping case. The small amount gave him the opportunity to say it was likely contaminated meat but, because it was 'out of the blue', every option is possible, making it a standard case and (procedural) comparable to a normal EPO case or a case like Kolobnev's...

Contador tested positve at a small amount in a series of negatives, had a barely matching blood sample (1 pg/ml) in the morning, all pointing to some kind of contamination (whether it's a transfusion, a piece of meat or a supplement) and also, let's not forget, had a high level of DEHP in his urine the day before. In short, a completely different case, which needed more research a different approach and contacting WADA...

No spinning on my side. I am of the opinion that this is basic knowledge about a case that isn't standard...

What do you think was known when Contador's A sample returned positive? Blood sample results? No. DEHP? Well, apparently you guys have been arguing that those levels are irrelevant for a clen positive and the test isn't validated etc, etc. Suddenly it is? Previous negatives? They weren't (re)tested in the same lab so it there was no way of knowing for certain whether those negatives would have been positive at Cologne at the time.

What exactly made the UCI go "hang on, we need to double check and triple check and we will keep quiet about it and when someone finds out we will type out a very informative press release so that everyone will know how many zeros the prefix pico indicates".

What exactly made the UCI keep quiet when A and B samples returned positive? Cases where contamination was accepted didn't have such wacky results management. Test positive, get suspended, figure out the defense. Not test positive, we will send one of the leading figures in the governing body over with the defense prepared. Btw, Zorzoli allegedly told Contador that it was a clear case of food contamination in the end of August. Must have been a lot of research when in matter of days UCI knew what happened. How important was the "research" that you speak of that took place in August-September 2010 when it wasn't clear what the cause of the positive was in Autumn of 2011 when various theories were still being tested?

It's funny that you speak about basic knowledge and thoughtful consideration when all I see is fact twisting and more spin. Transfusion it's contamination now. If that isn't spin...

 

[Nilsson]

I'll only quote the award, and that's it. I'm done with this...

As a consequence of the low concentration of clenbuterol found in Mr Contador’s A and B Samples and the fact that the samples that had been collected prior to 21 July 2010 did not contain clenbuterol, the UCI, as well as WADA, decided to conduct a series of investigations in an attempt to understand the finding obtained and, in particular, whether the finding might indicate that other anti-doping violations could have been committed than just the presence of clenbuterol.

About your last remarks: I don't have a clue what you try to say. Transfusion contamination? I hope you understand that if transfusion (what was the primary WADA theory) is the origin, it is a contaminated (plasma) transfusion.

I'm really done with this discussion...

 

[GJB123]

Dont try and spin it and imply that its alright to dope coz others are doing it. For instance i dont for a minute think someone like Bradley Wiggins is doping. He was one of the only riders who came out and criticised Contador and he is always criticising doping. He even said that cheats should be locked up. I remember Paul Kimmage on Irish radio saying at the time of Contador`s positive test that he never heard Contador say one anti-doping comment in his career and he is right about that.

Now that is not really an argument in itself, is it? There are several riderswho came out strongly against doping in the past, who later turned out to dope as much as the next guy. I trust someone who just keeps quiet and who gets on with the job as much or even more than the "outspoken" riders such as Wiggins. FGS, he came out in support of Armstrong of all people. Words do come cheap and you'ld do well take every statement from any professional rider with a pinch of salt when it comes to the use of PED's.

Browse around a bit on Wiggins in the Clinic and his 2009 blood values amongst others and tell me again you are convinced he is not doping. Sure, I understand he is British and the British would never dope as we all know.

Regards
GJ

 

[LaFlorecita]

But Giuseppe Martinelli said at last year`s Giro he should accept his ban and get on with it. If he thought he was clean i would of expected him to say that Contador should fight tooth and nail to clear his name. I found this strange.

That was strange, yes.

Dont try and spin it and imply that its alright to dope coz others are doing it.

I didn't say that. Sniper said that Alberto is "one of the biggest dopers out there". Therefore I said that if Alberto's doping (IF), that he isn't "One of the biggest dopers", because there are others that are doping too.

For instance i dont for a minute think someone like Bradley Wiggins is doping. He was one of the only riders who came out and criticised Contador and he is always criticising doping. He even said that cheats should be locked up.

So he criticised Alberto. I know. That's why I despise him. None of the riders knew what to think of it, because they didn't know whether or not Alberto doped, and mr Bradley Wiggins thinks he's God and knows things almost no one else does? I'm sorry, but if he thinks Alberto is a cheat and should therefore be locked up, he should just burn in hell. Cheats aren't serial killers or rapists. I would never want a normal person to end up in prison. The person just doesn't deserve it, no matter how much they doped.

I remember Paul Kimmage on Irish radio saying at the time of Contador`s positive test that he never heard Contador say one anti-doping comment in his career and he is right about that.

That's true, but I don't see why he should be judged because of that. I already spent ages clarifying why he never acts all anti-doping a while ago and I'm not going to do it again.

I would like to ask you would you still be a fan if it was proven he intentionally doped ? Coz if you like cycling you would want as clean as sport as possible. Cycling is bigger then any individual cyclist.

Yes, I would. I'm a fan of him as a cyclist and as a person, and if it's proven he intentionally doped, then I'll be okay with it. He still entertained me and he stays the same person.

 

[LaFlorecita]

So you hate a fellow who speaks out on doping but you love a fellow who has tested positive and gets 2 Grand Tours taking off him and who has numerous allegations from the past against him

Exactly.......

 

[LaFlorecita]

I find that staggering and i hope Bradley keeps speaking out on the issue when it needs be just like he did before last years Tour after winning the Dauphine when he said:

I don't care about doping, I care about how exciting the rider is and most importantly about the rider's personality.

“Personally, I am happy that he is there as it means that Saxo Bank will doing everything to help him win,” Wiggins said Sunday after wrapping up the overall.

Just shows what a selfish jerk he is, only thinking about himself.

“Sportwise, though, it’s not a good thing that a bloke who tested positive four times is in the race. It is also bad for those teams that are fighting to be clean, as in the case of my team, Sky.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...e-questions-contadors-presence-at-tour_178279

I think it would be worse if a "bloke" who was cleared would be kept out of the race.

And besides, as I stated before, I think it's disgusting that a guy who doesn't know what is the truth, just like everyone else, is so outspoken. I'm sure that when Alberto returns, he'll keep on moaning about how "cheats" shouldn't be allowed to race and should be locked up. I hope Alberto stands up against him one day, but I doubt he will.

 

[peloton]

When Wiggins released his blood values people made assumption that suited themselves and added arms and legs on to things to come up with a story. He was advised not to release them again coz of this. And then you try to bring his nationaliy into all of this. What has that got to do with anything.

God forbid, what if Wiggins was in Contador's shoes?
Easy with the stones when it's a glass house.

 

[Walkman]

You bring up an interesting point.

Alberto is talented. One of the most talented riders in the peloton. That much is clear when you look at his results as a young guy. Let's assume everyone is doping to more or less the same extent.
i)If he hadn't doped, he would still be a great rider just not as exceptional as he is now.
ii)I think we can safely say Alberto would've been the best in a completely clean peloton too.

How would it be if you would take yourself you up on your own advise?

Maybe it's better if you start showing some of that objectivity.

I mean, the bolded part is simply ridiculously.

Do you believe Lance is the most talented athlete ever in the history of sports?

 

[Benotti69]

I don't care about doping


<snip>.

yet here you are in the clinic. ?

One of cycling's problems is the doping and if the fans dont care the riders wont either.

 

[Walkman]

yet here you are in the clinic. ?

One of cycling's problems is the doping and if the fans dont care the riders wont either.

What he said. It's kind of sad actually.

 

[LaFlorecita]

How would it be if you would take yourself you up on your own advise?



I mean, the bolded part is simply ridiculously.

Do you believe Lance is the most talented athlete ever in the history of sports?

I'm not even going to explain that to you because I highly doubt you want to understand.

 

[LaFlorecita]

yet here you are in the clinic. ?

One of cycling's problems is the doping and if the fans dont care the riders wont either.

I'm here to defend Alberto. If someone says something bad about Alberto I would like to cut that person's head off. And seeing the clinic is basically full of haters (I've yet to spot someone that is a fan or at least respects him that isn't a poster that just got over here once) it's really frustrating me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

What he said. It's kind of sad actually.

Whatever. I think you haters are sad.

 

[hrotha]

Wiggins is not in Contador`s shoes and will never be in the situation that Contador was just in.

I find your excessive faith in Wiggins disturbing.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I cant believe that comment. You dont care about doping. If your a fan of the sport you would want to eradicate doping as much as possible. Its that precise attitude which shows me everything that is wrong with cycling today.

So following your logic, every fan of Contador isn't a fan of cycling? Because they are a fan of a cheat so they don't want to eradicate doping.

How is he a jerk? I dont think its right if his team is clean and there are others who are not playing it fair. Thats what Wiggins is referring to in that story.

You clearly didn't get what I was referring to.

Wiggins is not in Contador`s shoes and will never be in the situation that Contador was just in.

That's a bold statement. You can never know what will happen.

You say show him some respect and what respect did he show me and other fans when he tested positive and then come up with a laughable excuse about contaminated meat. The UCI bought him a couple of months to come up with this lame excuse. And you come out then and say you would like to cut a person`s head off if they dare criticise Sir Bertie. Well i am going to continue to still speak my mind regardless of that comment.

And I'm going to continue to disagree. His excuse wasn't laughable, as you call it. Illegal use of hormones to fatten cattle is still happening, even in Europe. Maybe not as widespread as in China and Mexico, but it's still here.

Just think of it. What if he really is innocent? There are two possible sources for the positive.

Contaminated meat.
Or
Contaminated supplement.

He knows he didn't take any supplements that day. Hence the contaminated meat scenario, although unlikely, is most likely the cause of his positive test.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Just think of it. What if he really is innocent? There are two possible sources for the positive.

Contaminated meat.
Or
Contaminated supplement.

He knows he didn't take any supplements that day. Hence the contaminated meat scenario, although unlikely, is most likely the cause of his positive test.

The likely scenario is he doped. End of.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm here to defend Alberto. If someone says something bad about Alberto I would like to cut that person's head off. And seeing the clinic is basically full of haters (I've yet to spot someone that is a fan or at least respects him that isn't a poster that just got over here once) it's really frustrating me.

Why would you expect a fan of cycling to be a fan of a doper?

As for cutting heads off, that is talk that is fundamental and I doubt Contador would want such extreme fans.

Join the dots of Contador's career and you will see the reality of his positive test.

 

[hrotha]

You find my faith in Wiggins disturbing? Get real.

I respect his anti-doping stance in the sport. Thats all, nothing more, nothing less, so dont you be going around twisting my opinions and then make it personal with a comment like that.

You cant say an anti-doping comment or back a rider who has an anti-doping stance, coz if you do you get accussed of all sorts now.

And in case you think Wiggins is the only rider i like with an anti-doping stance you are most definitely wrong. I have a lot of time for Marco Pinotti as well. He has been very outspoken on Di Luca and Basso in the past.

Wiggins and Pinotti are the examples for the younger generation. Not Valverde, Basso, Vino, Contador, or Di Luca. I dont got the time of the day for any of them.

Where did I say you should suspect him because of his public anti-doping stance, or that Wiggins is the only rider you like for that reason? That has nothing to do with my post. You should suspect Wiggins because of his sudden leap in performance and because of his current level. It's silly to say with such security that a rider, especially a very successful one, doesn't dope and never will in the future. Best case scenario, we simply don't know. The history of the sport should have taught you that much.

Also, you're aware Wiggins is the same age as Valverde and older than Contador, and Pinotti is older than all of the riders you listed except for Vino (and Di Luca, but they were born days apart), right? And that they've been riding as pros for just as long, and they're effectively part of the same generation, right?

 

[roundabout]

FWIW, I am inclined to believe in Pinotti because as far as I understand he should have had a better pro career based on his rides as an amateur.

But then again, it's the same argument that I made last June when Kern suddenly began tearing it up and Pinotti did ride for Gianetti.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, I too believe more in Pinotti than in most current riders, but I would never go on to say he never doped, doesn't dope and never will. That'd be foolhardy, especially considering his team history, as you say.

 

[The Hitch]

yet here you are in the clinic. ?

One of cycling's problems is the doping and if the fans dont care the riders wont either.

They don't care in other sports either. so its nothing special about cycling.

 

[The Hitch]

I find that staggering and i hope Bradley keeps speaking out on the issue when it needs be just like he did before last years Tour after winning the Dauphine when he said:

“Personally, I am happy that he is there as it means that Saxo Bank will doing everything to help him win,” Wiggins said Sunday after wrapping up the overall. “Sportwise, though, it’s not a good thing that a bloke who tested positive four times is in the race. It is also bad for those teams that are fighting to be clean, as in the case of my team, Sky.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...e-questions-contadors-presence-at-tour_178279

Regarding wiggins he is most famous in these circles for a long passionate 2007 speech regarding rasmussen and vino which many applauded.

However one should point out that he has become the biggest lance fan in the peloton and speaking against contador ( the enemy) in order to show hoe clean sky are , was an open goal.