Alexi Grewel in training for comeback at 50! Inspiring or Unwelcome?

[Merckx index]

I wonder when blood doping actually became effective. People I have spoken with have told me that blood perishes quickly and seperating red blood cells and concentrating them causes damage to the cells making them a waste of time. Of course donated blood lasts only a short time, I am sure it gets tossed by the blood banks after a short time.

From what I have read from the clinic here everything has been developed into an art as far as blood doping goes. In 84 though, Rebecca Twigg blood doped in the olympics and said it did not help, which I believe. Since it was legal at the time why would she lie?

I'm not sure if you're serious, but on the chance you are, stored blood lasts years.

Twigg won a silver in the race, pipped at the line by Connie. What exactly would she have had to do to convince herself that blood doping helped, destroy the field?

 

[mastersracer]

I'm not sure if you're serious, but on the chance you are, stored blood lasts years.

Twigg won a silver in the race, pipped at the line by Connie. What exactly would she have had to do to convince herself that blood doping helped, destroy the field?

doesn't anyone on this forum fact check just a little bit?? Read the article by Les Earnest. The 1984 US team blood doping was at best ineffective and at worst dangerous...

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

His credentials beat yours:

1995-96 Founding Director and Secretary of USA Cycling
1984-99 UCI National Commissaire (bike race official)
1984 Director of the Road, Olympic Games, Los Angeles
1980-85 Delegate to U.S. Olympic Committee from USCF

 

[NashbarShorts]

If the guy is really serious hell let him race. I think it is a mistake for him...

Seems cycling is kind of an OCD pursuit anyways. And some ppl claim there is such thing as "excercise addiction", endorphin release from hard physical exercise, etc. If he needs to chase a "high", probably exercise is better than the alternatives. In that case, maybe it's not a mistake for him. (Then again, it hasn't really worked out for Chad Gerlach....)

 

[Merckx index]

doesn't anyone on this forum fact check just a little bit?? Read the article by Les Earnest. The 1984 US team blood doping was at best ineffective and at worst dangerous...

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

His credentials beat yours:

1995-96 Founding Director and Secretary of USA Cycling
1984-99 UCI National Commissaire (bike race official)
1984 Director of the Road, Olympic Games, Los Angeles
1980-85 Delegate to U.S. Olympic Committee from USCF

Actually, you have no idea what my credentials are.

I never said that blood doping wasn't dangerous. All my post did was point out that blood can be stored for long periods of time, and asked for--not declared that there was none--but asked for evidence that the procedure didn't help. The link you provided does not give any such evidence. It simply states, "a [sic] least one rider had a worse performance as a result."

That does not address the Twigg performance, let alone establish that no other doped rider performed better.

 

[ultimobici]

I've just read the OC Register article. Based on that and the other articles posted I have a hard time condemning the guy at all.

Yes he has fallen on hard times, but I don't see him doing the "poor me" routine. He hasn't been homeless rather has helped the homeless in his area. That's a damn sight more than many of us can claim, how many of us would do this?

He began ministering to the homeless in Portland and Colorado. Two years ago, concerned that three homeless men wouldn't survive the Rocky Mountain winter, Grewal let the men live in his house for several months. Grewal moved into a work shed behind the house. The 20 by 26-feet shed had neither running water or a toilet. Grewal showered each morning at a city facility.

As for his abortive European move, he chose to sign for Panasonic under Peter Post. Probably the worst team for Grewal to have chosen! Post was renowned as a rigid disciplinarian, something that a character like Grewal would have been crushed by.

The thing I find amazing about this is the vitriol that has been directed at this guy. Seems that he's been giving back a fair bit more than many of us. Glass houses & stones........

 

[mastersracer]

Actually, you have no idea what my credentials are.

I never said that blood doping wasn't dangerous. All my post did was point out that blood can be stored for long periods of time, and asked for--not declared that there was none--but asked for evidence that the procedure didn't help. The link you provided does not give any such evidence. It simply states, "a [sic] least one rider had a worse performance as a result."

That does not address the Twigg performance, let alone establish that no other doped rider performed better.

1. read the article more carefully; it states:

"according to prior medical studies, the planned transfusion of one unit of blood per rider was insufficient to improve performance. " This would have been less than half the amount required for a performance improvement.

2. The whole issue is a red herring: Grewal did not participate.

3. Your statement about blood storage is too simplistic. Blood storage for autologous transfusions is not trivial. Refrigeration does not work - RBCs degrade rapidly so that by 3-4 weeks 30-40% are lost. Freezing technology was still being developed in the 1980s. Read "Blood doping - a literature review" by Jones & Pedoe, 1989. This is the reason why the transfusions were heterologous. Even today, blood storage for autologous transfusions requires a network of conspirators.

from Jones & Pedoe: "An elaborate technique can be used for almost indefinite storage of red cells"4. This technique is used routinely for rare blood types and is being increasingly used for autologous blood transfusion where patients are facing a major operation and only wish to receive their own blood."

 

[flicker]

1. read the article more carefully; it states:

"according to prior medical studies, the planned transfusion of one unit of blood per rider was insufficient to improve performance. " This would have been less than half the amount required for a performance improvement.

2. The whole issue is a red herring: Grewal did not participate.

3. Your statement about blood storage is too simplistic. Blood storage for autologous transfusions is not trivial. Refrigeration does not work - RBCs degrade rapidly so that by 3-4 weeks 30-40% are lost. Freezing technology was still being developed in the 1980s. Read "Blood doping - a literature review" by Jones & Pedoe, 1989. This is the reason why the transfusions were heterologous. Even today, blood storage for autologous transfusions requires a network of conspirators.

from Jones & Pedoe: "An elaborate technique can be used for almost indefinite storage of red cells"4. This technique is used routinely for rare blood types and is being increasingly used for autologous blood transfusion where patients are facing a major operation and only wish to receive their own blood."

I think the blood doping done now is pretty cutting edge. The training sessions on EPO and then the draw. Before racing adding a unit and then diluting blood with saline to lower hemoctrit to avoid alerting the bio-passport. Plus a litttle overnight insulin recovery and testesterone, what could be finer. Back in Twiggs era that was the stone age. I think it was hit and miss. Gotta freeze that stored blood real cold r
ight like negative 200o farenheit and then pop it in at the right time. Lotta athletes in the Eastern block must have been getting real sick.

 

[basque1]

It seems I'm late on the character issue re: Grewal in this thread, but when I was at nationals in Ohio in 2000, he was a guest speaker the night before, and rode in a follow car. He seemed like a real nice guy to me. After his talk, a bunch of us gathered around him to ask him questions and of course we started asking him about drugs. Without saying yes or no, or being specific, he basically called Lance out back then, saying he'd had him pegged as a guy who'd never do anything spectacular--that he was talented, but a guy who "pedaled squares." He also admitted himself to taking ephedrine once or something. He basically said many or most pros were on drugs, but one guy he knew was clean was LeMond--he just said the guy could stay out till 3am and "be out the door at 30mph," that his recovery was spectacular. That he was a once-in-a-lifetime talent.

Overall, I thought it was an enjoyable experience and that Grewal was quite likable, as well as giving of his time.

 

[rgrewal]

Alexi

Not sure of and to whom is replying, but all the substances Alexi purportedly ingested were regularly tested and had quantity limits. He tested positive in the coors, but the lab could not test quantity, nor could they test for different substances in the same family. I was there and he did accidentally take a pill had natural ephedrine, which is akin to about 5 cups of coffee, and ephedrine is well known to spike heart rates and then leave you flat. Alexi's confession is mostly BS as they TESTED for the items he said he took, and that ephedra was legal up to a certain quantity. I will admit I could be wrong on the exact ephedrine limit issue as I have not concerned myself about the issue. It was legal to take caffeine?

Alexi has decent talent far beyond cycling and he just has been dealt a different hand, but it is a hand that is and may be the norm in the new age of fraud and finance. An outfit like velonews should bring him (Alexi) on as a reporter, give him a legal pad and a camera and he would be great, and you would expand your readership. It is time ti spice up Velonews anyway, I find it reasonably boring and predictable, so why not "take a chance". For instance, in my career, I utilized all avenues to get better, and was able to boost my performance and still never use drugs. Nearly all of the techniques we used have never been touched by the sports media, therefore I have to take this message to people on my own at some point. Please remember that there are so many frauds about from govment' to sports it is hard to sift through the BS.

So I look forward to some or all of the news agencies extending an offer to Alexi to be a reporter, or at the least to provide op-eds about his comeback and comment on the modern bike racer who can Still, for about $1,000 outfit their kit with the trifecta cocktail PED. In some respects you have to look at the decision to use PED's as purely a business deal, and that is the general outlook by the pros, but now the amateurs in search of ego filled glory have found the fountain of youth.

 

[Merckx index]

3. Your statement about blood storage is too simplistic. Blood storage for autologous transfusions is not trivial. Refrigeration does not work - RBCs degrade rapidly so that by 3-4 weeks 30-40% are lost. Freezing technology was still being developed in the 1980s. Read "Blood doping - a literature review" by Jones & Pedoe, 1989. This is the reason why the transfusions were heterologous. Even today, blood storage for autologous transfusions requires a network of conspirators.

from Jones & Pedoe: "An elaborate technique can be used for almost indefinite storage of red cells"4. This technique is used routinely for rare blood types and is being increasingly used for autologous blood transfusion where patients are facing a major operation and only wish to receive their own blood."

I was not addressing storage technology in the 80s, I was responding directly to Flicker's statement, in the present tense, saying that blood banks threw out blood in a few weeks. I was just pointing out that it is possible to store blood for longer periods of time.

 

[ultimobici]

Not sure of and to whom is replying, but all the substances Alexi purportedly ingested were regularly tested and had quantity limits. He tested positive in the coors, but the lab could not test quantity, nor could they test for different substances in the same family. I was there and he did accidentally take a pill had natural ephedrine, which is akin to about 5 cups of coffee, and ephedrine is well known to spike heart rates and then leave you flat. Alexi's confession is mostly BS as they TESTED for the items he said he took, and that ephedra was legal up to a certain quantity. I will admit I could be wrong on the exact ephedrine limit issue as I have not concerned myself about the issue. It was legal to take caffeine?

Alexi has decent talent far beyond cycling and he just has been dealt a different hand, but it is a hand that is and may be the norm in the new age of fraud and finance. An outfit like velonews should bring him (Alexi) on as a reporter, give him a legal pad and a camera and he would be great, and you would expand your readership. It is time ti spice up Velonews anyway, I find it reasonably boring and predictable, so why not "take a chance". For instance, in my career, I utilized all avenues to get better, and was able to boost my performance and still never use drugs. Nearly all of the techniques we used have never been touched by the sports media, therefore I have to take this message to people on my own at some point. Please remember that there are so many frauds about from govment' to sports it is hard to sift through the BS.

So I look forward to some or all of the news agencies extending an offer to Alexi to be a reporter, or at the least to provide op-eds about his comeback and comment on the modern bike racer who can Still, for about $1,000 outfit their kit with the trifecta cocktail PED. In some respects you have to look at the decision to use PED's as purely a business deal, and that is the general outlook by the pros, but now the amateurs in search of ego filled glory have found the fountain of youth.

You aren't who you appear to be are you? That would be too obvious!

 

[rgrewal]

Texas

Think back to Lajitas and it was....Bob and me in the break with one other roadie, they took turns attacking until Bob was clear. Tom Shuler taught one thing, two moves. One to the break, the next to win. Succeded in the lesson and still loking for the picture on main in Lajitas from Gladu.

Funny thing is both the roadies lost 5 minutes the next day........

Always had a shake on Monday from the local soda jerk, then we go rafting!

With those PED thingyies I could have maybe made it 7 Desert Challenges?

 

[Neworld]

Ricara makes some good points.

Yes he does.

Wow! The response from Ricara was a bit over the top and tantamount to me calling AG a rapist or something. I was alleged to have gone "off the farm", and was "trashing people". Do you really think my post compelled him to call me a nitwit? Humm, bad day eh?

Actually, that is not what I was intending to do, nor did I know that I would upset him so. I think my questions were actually articulated in a non-threatening and non-derogatory manner. I asked questions like "How do you know this" and "is this one of the those instances when you KNOW that the Norse did drugs but also KNOW that AB never did blood doping?" Hardly that bad for this forum.

Ricara states that he

"never said that I KNEW the Norwegian team was doping." Actually he said, "two Norwegians got third and fourth. I raced against Dag-Otto plenty of times. He was a good rider, but I don't think he was the third-best amateur in the world back then! I bet the Norwegians did more bad stuff than the Americans ever dreamed of to get third and fourth."

Ok, so he doesn't KNOW that the Norse doped, but he bets that they did a lot of BAD stuff. What is clear is that he KNOWS that AG was clean. Got it.

I don't know what AG did or does that is why I asked those questions. If Ricara read the thread it seems that there are a lot more people out there that question, as I did, the integrity of AG. I don't know the real answers, who does really? For all I know AG is like Charly Mottet and never even drank coffee before races. I wish AG well, he does have an Olympic Gold but his life sounds sad and he now seems motivated to ride his bike again. Fantastic. I hope he wins or feels fulfilled in whatever his future cycling ambitions are.

Lastly, yes I am a Bauer fan, but not fanatical. I am not blinded by my personal choices and remain open-minded to listen to others without barking insults at them.

Sorry I ****ed you off Ricara, would've loved to raced against you though with all that vigour in ya. Next time take a chill pill and have a laugh before I drop you on the flats; kidding tough guy.

NW

(* Aside: Neworld, from other threads we know you are the ultimate Bauer fan, so you're hatred is excused

Thanks NShorts, but I'm just a fan...who thinks Bauer is the right kind of DS for the future of the sport.

 

[ultimobici]

I wish AG well, he does have an Olympic Gold.

Not any more he doesn't. Someone nicked it together with his false teeth!

 

[Fieldsprint]

Best victory salute ever.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Ricara makes some good points. The '84 Olympics were boycotted by ALL the Eastern European Soviet bloc countries. As such, it was a gold medal fest for the US, and made for great TV viewing (in the US). But the outcome of that road race and MOST other events would have been different if the Soviets and their buddies had shown up.

Also, if the most Grewal did was stuff a peach w/ No-Doze, I could care less. How is that any different than slamming a Coke late in the race -- which pro riders still do today? Caffeine overage is easily detected in post-race pee controls. If Grewal didn't go over, it's not a failed control. And I doubt a peach would allow a climber to outsprint Steve Bauer. (Perhaps -- just perhaps -- Grewal was pretty gifted.)

As for Dag-Otto and the 4th-placed rider, the Norwegians (and Swedes and Finns and Austrians) have a long history of 'funny business' in their Nordic skiing programs. It would not be a stretch to postulate that Dag was ingesting more than peaches.

Regarding Grewal's 'comeback', I don't quite get the ire against him. I've read the linked articles. Where exactly does it say he was/is a drug addict? Where does it say he's a bad father??

Seriously, all I read was that: a) he's poor, b) he's divorced. Neither of those things are crimes! If there is more information that I'm missing, somebody pls enlighten the forum.

Additionally, it's reported that: a) he's religious, b) cares about the homeless, c) takes an activist stance against real-estate developers and local politicians. Again, none of these things are a crime, perhaps even might be seen as admirable qualities.

The guy might have been a prima donna back in the day. But if a 50yr. old guy wants to set a personal/fitness goal for himself, so be it. If he is allowed to ride Quiznos as a publicity-grabber for his "team", why not?

(* Aside: Neworld, from other threads we know you are the ultimate Bauer fan, so you're hatred is excused )

Just a note to lend some cred to AG's result. Since Bauer didn't win, he was able to ride pro world's later that year - and hit the podium.

Eastern bloc being there or not, obviously those guys were going well.

I really hope Alexi can have a good time giving it a shot, can't say I envy him. Pretty hard getting punchy with the young punks when you're old and don't bounce so well anymore...

 

[TubularBills]

Best victory salute ever.

And Most Authentic! Overcome, with the absolute "Thrill of Victory..."

Kudos

& in my book - Once Gold always Gold*

*Unless tested/proven/admitted otherwise & absolutely whether you have the physical medal or not.

I for one, and obviously not alone relative to this thread, admire Alexi despite the politics, the 80's atmosphere and pressure of a sport seeking success regardless of cost and his personally admitted eccentricities - we're all different, and that's what makes us human.

God Bless Everyone! except Lance. Great vintage photo of an epic moment. thanks.

 

[tubularglue]

past explanation

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm

 

[BigBoat]

Great to see Grewel trying to do a comeback at 50!! Nothing wrong with that, dont know why people are so uptight! Racing is good for ya, especially in his case.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Best victory salute ever.

And still the best US cycling jersey design, ever. I think the US used that design up through Lemond's '89 worlds. Since then, it's been a steady stream of f-ugly kits...

Seriously, just go w/ what works. Stars and Bars!!

(Lemond's '89 Worlds salute is close 2nd though! One hand on bars due to the rain, same "holy crap I just outsprinted Sean Kelly" expression on his face )

 

[TubularBills]

past explanation

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm

that's a gem, great resource and amazing color... nothing like eyewitness, firsthand accounts - a good read.

So I guess, despite my last comment, the Jury's still out? - though, "Equally important, Alexi passed the drug test at the Olympics."

 

[flicker]

past explanation

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm

isn't ephedrine a drug that should be used over a 3 month period to get a proper effect. Wouldn't a drug like that have the gift of long lasting power for sometime after a person quit using it.
Guys I knew that took metabolites for "weight loss" said the good effect started 20 days into dosing. It is an unsynthasized amphetamine right?

 

[TubularBills]

Stars and Bars!!

would make a great title for Lance's next memoirs.

 

[tubularglue]

Yes, won it clean

part of link above

i love this part of the history. still makes me laugh

"As I eventually figured out, no riders could have tested positive at the Coors race before 1983, even though drug testing was required by international regulations. I had started officiating there in 1978 when this race was still called the Red Zinger. There was a great show made of medical control in the Red Zinger/Coors. Top finishers and a few other riders selected at random in each race had to provide urine specimens under the surveillance of a race official. I found it remarkable that no one ever tested positive, given that there are many non-prescription drugs that contain prohibited substances. In fact, after a couple of years of this, I asked UCI International Commissaire Artie Greenberg how the riders managed to keep so clean. His reply was, “Don't ask.”



Of course, I immediately became more inquisitive and eventually learned that the promoter was unwilling or unable to pay for lab tests. Instead, after urine samples were collected, they were carefully flushed down the nearest toilet. While the “toilet test” was a great waste of time for all involved, it helped keep up the pretense that this was a “clean race” and probably deterred some riders who didn't know about the testing procedures."

kind of like those large percentage of UCI out of competion samples that are not tested for banned substances - published on their site year 2009

 

[redtreviso]

sort of off topic but..Remember Leslee Schenck popped for ephedrine but claimed she took Nyquil? So many antihistimine meds contain ephedrine...most have warnings of drowsiness but some people speed when they take them. Nowadays you have to show an ID to buy sudafed etc because meth cookers would refine the ephedrine from these meds.. 10 years ago or less there were all kinds of "energy" packets of "vitamins" for sale in every 7-11...First there was a warning.."these products contain ephedrine" Then they were taken off the market completely. So this was fairly recently.. Now there are all these Monster energy and 5 hr energy drinks...with a little warning "may cause rapid heart rate" is there a new kind of ephedrine in these? But anyway, cyclists subject to drug testing had to know there were many legal and available substances they had to avoid. If ephedrine laced products produced an advantage they probably would have been immensely popular with amateurs and pros alike but there were not.