All is ok, Jens has given his reasoned decision

[ElChingon]

Opps posted this in the wrong thread, moved it over

Well either Jens is so self centered he never talks to anyone other than about himself, which could be true based on his tweets, or he has or had a huge language barrier or is just so extremely shy that he never ever popped his head out to talk or look around him, this based on how he's always late to races. But then how would he know about cancer if he never talked to Lance? Yet he was at that big cancer shing-dig...

Then we have the stories how he's the best liked rider in the peloton, is he liked because he doesn't ask anything or is oblivious to his surroundings? We never have gotten that fact from his fellow riders. Some do say he's funny, is he a non-stop comedy act that is too buy making riders laugh to see whats going on? Well most comedians use their own experiences and knowledge of what they are doing to poke fun at themselves or their surroundings so something tells me I can make a reasoned decision that he knows it all and is hiding behind a conspiracy to look to the future and forget the past.

 

[Polyarmour]

Guys like Verbruggen, McQuaid and Armstrong are just going to keep making a fool out of you each and every year then... I don't know what else to say. Entertainment Wrestling has more credibility than Pro cycling.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be lied to like that on an on-going basis is okay. You are even seeking the abuse out at this point. It's probably something worth examining.

Jens is very entertaining on the bike. He has an aggressive, long-odds style of racing that is hard to dislike and exciting. It's unfortunate he's had to dope and thinks that people will just take him at his word when it comes to doping. Oh wait, Polyarmour has....

You have not the slightest bit of evidence that Jens has doped yet you have no hesitation in calling him a doper. You are just a slanderer hiding anonymously in a blog. Am I meant to be impressed by your negativity and lack of objectivity?

 

[Benotti69]

You have not the slightest bit of evidence that Jens has doped yet you have no hesitation in calling him a doper. You are just a slanderer hiding anonymously in a blog. Am I meant to be impressed by your negativity and lack of objectivity?

Why would you expect anyone to have evidence of riders doping. So many got away with it so easily.

To believe Jens could carve a reasonably successfull career for so long through such a dirty era where if you weren't doping you were not likely not get a contract is naive to say the least.

 

[Lukenwolf]

Opps posted this in the wrong thread, moved it over

Well either Jens is so self centered he never talks to anyone other than about himself, which could be true based on his tweets, or he has or had a huge language barrier or is just so extremely shy that he never ever popped his head out to talk or look around him, this based on how he's always late to races. But then how would he know about cancer if he never talked to Lance? Yet he was at that big cancer shing-dig...

Then we have the stories how he's the best liked rider in the peloton, is he liked because he doesn't ask anything or is oblivious to his surroundings? We never have gotten that fact from his fellow riders. Some do say he's funny, is he a non-stop comedy act that is too buy making riders laugh to see whats going on? Well most comedians use their own experiences and knowledge of what they are doing to poke fun at themselves or their surroundings so something tells me I can make a reasoned decision that he knows it all and is hiding behind a conspiracy to look to the future and forget the past.

Did you even read his blog entry. Nowhere does he say that he didn't know that doping was going on. He said he was shocked by the EXTENT of it, which is probably true for most people and he said he never SAW SOMEONE DOPING FIRSTHAND. Which only means, nobody ever stuck a needle in his **** or emptied a bloodbag into his arm, while Jens was in the room. I don't find that such outrageous a claim

 

[fat_boy_fat]

And that goes in which context with the topic of the thread?

Seen Jens’ tweets before this? All about his children’s Halloween party: nice, funny, warm, the family man. Heartwarming. Would be a desaster seeing it destroyed.

JV was a teammate, he could know, what Jens knows.

Maybe just a coincidence, maybe JV being spontaneously touched by something. Maybe nothing. Sorry for stealing your time.

 

[Lukenwolf]

Seen Jens’ tweets before this? All about his children’s Halloween party: nice, funny, warm, the family man. Heartwarming. Would be a desaster seeing it destroyed.

JV was a teammate, he could know, what Jens knows.

Maybe just a coincidence, maybe JV being spontaneously touched by something. Maybe nothing. Sorry for stealing your time.

IIRC JV and Jens were team mate at Credit Agricole in 2000/2001, a time about which JV says himself that CA was on absolutely nothing. So that wouldn't work all too well as a way to implicate Voigt, would it?

 

[Benotti69]

IIRC JV and Jens were team mate at Credit Agricole in 2000/2001, a time about which JV says himself that CA was on absolutely nothing. So that wouldn't work all too well as a way to implicate Voigt, would it?

JV says that they were using nothing but then the Legeay realised riders had to up their 'game' and Vaughter's used epo at CA.

 

[proffate]

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/jorg_jaksche_jul07

That year saw the Festina scandal unfold. Jaksche said that when he talked to Jens Voigt, the rider said that someone from his team suggested to bury all the stuff along the race route and pick it up after the Tour. While Voigt does not remember details of the conversation he agrees that "we talked about doping all the time back then," and thinks it's possible he joked about something like that.

 

["Jeff"]

Why would you expect anyone to have evidence of riders doping. So many got away with it so easily.

To believe Jens could carve a reasonably successfull career for so long through such a dirty era where if you weren't doping you were not likely not get a contract is naive to say the least.

I think its fully believable. Like you said; 'reasonable career'.

I wouldnt put my money on it, that's for sure, but its not out of the question he did anything wrong. If I read this topic than one might think Jens Voigt won several classiques and finished top 10 in the Tour several times...

 

[SlowtwitchLeaks]

Congratulations to Jens Voigt, the ONLY clean cyclist in the past 20 years!!! [/sarcasm]

 

["Jeff"]

Why would you expect anyone to have evidence of riders doping. So many got away with it so easily.

To believe Jens could carve a reasonably successfull career for so long through such a dirty era where if you weren't doping you were not likely not get a contract is naive to say the least.

I think its fully believable. Like you said; 'reasonable career'.

I wouldnt put my money on it, that's for sure, but its not out of the question he did anything wrong. If I read this topic than one might think Jens Voigt won several classiques and finished top 10 in the Tour several times.

We are talking about Jens Voigt right ? That guy who had a subscription on the Criterium International. The one we saw every year in the Tour de France, who could ride like the wind but was rarely a winner ?

 

[ElChingon]

Did you even read his blog entry. Nowhere does he say that he didn't know that doping was going on. He said he was shocked by the EXTENT of it, which is probably true for most people and he said he never SAW SOMEONE DOPING FIRSTHAND. Which only means, nobody ever stuck a needle in his **** or emptied a bloodbag into his arm, while Jens was in the room. I don't find that such outrageous a claim

Meanwhile all the top racers, and you would call Jen's a top racer wouldn't you? (Or is he a lame turd of a racer) Were talking about their refusion scars, bruises at the GT's and no one ever ever mentioned it to the super cool, super friendly, super well known Jen's. How odd, it seems there is a shift in Jen's popularity in the peloton on those days

Then even at the Schleck's poker game they never brought it up, I mean when you (anyone reading) get together with work/school friends you talk about work/school related matters, yet not Jen's.

Yea, maybe it is a language issue after all

 

[Lukenwolf]

Meanwhile all the top racers, and you would call Jen's a top racer wouldn't you? (Or is he a lame turd of a racer) Were talking about their refusion scars, bruises at the GT's and no one ever ever mentioned it to the super cool, super friendly, super well known Jen's. How odd, it seems there is a shift in Jen's popularity in the peloton on those days

Then even at the Schleck's poker game they never brought it up, I mean when you (anyone reading) get together with work/school friends you talk about work/school related matters, yet not Jen's.

Yea, maybe it is a language issue after all

Well he's not a top racer, but he is one, who made a name for himself for wasting hundreds of perfectly useable days of his life out in the wind in front of the peloton of which only one out of 15 was actually successful.
Of course he knew what was going on - to a degree. He probably knew that most took EPO and some other drugs too. But I doubt that he knew that Armstrong took every drug this side of Agent Orange and I don't think any USPS rider ever rode up to him and said: "Hey Jens, yesterday Lance blackmailed that dude back into shape just before he shot himself back into shape with a bag o' good ol' Shell Super Plus."
He may have even seen the needlemarks, but that doesn't mean he has actually witnessed the act of re-infusion himself. And that's the only thing he says in his blog entry.

Is he riding on a linguistic technicality? - of course. Hell I do, too. My head tells me that he had to take something at some time to keep up, but my heart doesn't want to believe it. I'll be heartbroken the day he confesses or id proven to have been a doper. But until then I cling on to the slim chance that he actually is clean. At least he has better arguments than saying "I didn't do it. I'm Cancer jesus and I'll bully everyone into the middle of last week who says otherwise."

 

[quiqui]

No matter what everyone is thinking. Jens age should not be an argument IMO. He became professional at a very late age. If you prepare yourself well than this is possible. 41 is definitely special butthere are several other examples between 35-40.

Good one...

 

[Polyarmour]

http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyserious/2012/10/30/turbulent-times/

And there’s shocking news of how a massive doping system was organized. And some of you might even be asking yourself, “Oh my god, is Jens next?” I can answer that question easy and quickly: No! There is nothing to confess or admit in my career, so relax, people. There is no bad news coming from my side.

Why is it so hard to say straight out "I have never doped". The above statement doesn't mean that he didn't dope.

This is what an expert in "lieology" has to say. And I think it applies to alomost every public liar that I have heard.

http://liespotting.com/2011/06/liespotting-lance-armstrong-part-2-expert-analysis/

One of the most significant behaviors observed is the fact that during the entire clip (2 minutes, 7 seconds), (he) only definitively denied taking performance-enhancing drugs one time. Why is this significant? When a truthful person is accused of wrongdoing, his tendency is to dwell on the facts of the situation, which are his most important ally. In addition, there is usually some form of direct denial, such as “I didn’t do it.” In those cases where the allegations are true, and “I didn’t do it” is not a reality that the untruthful individual can psychologically rely upon, he must focus his comments elsewhere. That focus is quite often on what we call “convincing behavior,” or “convincing statements.” In the deception detection field we refer to the phenomenon as “convince vs. convey” – the aim of the deceptive person is to convince us of something rather than to convey factual information.

Thanks for the research on when people are lying however it's irrelevant to Jens' case.
There are a number of direct doping denials in Jens' blog... if you had bothered to read it.

So let’s walk through this, and let me try to shed some light on my career and hopefully make it clear that I just did not ever dope.

So in the seven years I was with Bjarne, even though Ivan was involved in Operación Puerto, and even though Bjarne himself admitted doping, I can honestly say that nobody ever approached me about doping. Nobody even came close. Nobody even offered to give me any “help.”

Then again we were teammates for several years on CSC and had some of the best years of our lives. We raced well and, most important, we raced clean.

Thor is like me. We often talked about dopers and how there should be no mercy for them. For us, dope has always been a no go.

There are some who don’t believe I was clean and that I too should confess. And in a twisted and crazy and stupid way of thinking I sometimes almost wish that I would have something to confess. But again I say, no, I did not dope.

Now it's one thing to say you don't believe what he is saying.
But I think Jens is making his position very clear... he is saying quite categorically he never doped.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Voigt is the biggest disgarce among all cyclist.
I can't even say how much i despise him. MR Omerta himself. The biggest hypocrite in the whole peleton.
May he burn in hell! (Anybody knowing something about him knows why he deserves)

 

[cineteq]

Now it's one thing to say you don't believe what he is saying. But I think Jens is making his position very clear... he is saying quite categorically he never doped.

Like Armstrong always did.

 

[Lukenwolf]

Voigt is the biggest disgarce among all cyclist.
I can't even say how much i despise him. MR Omerta himself. The biggest hypocrite in the whole peleton.
May he burn in hell! (Anybody knowing something about him knows why he deserves)

Well, instead of just ranting. Maybe you just share your 'something' that you know about him. Or are you still bitter that he hunted down Ullrich in 2004?

 

[hrotha]

OK, let's accept for a second that Voigt never doped. It's a stretch, given that we're in the late 90s, but OK, we know there were some exceptions.

But he never saw anything? His first experience with doping was when the Festina case exploded? Mind, CA was probably clean(ish) in JV's time, but Gan wasn't clean before Festina. And Voigt, who made the Tour squad and who was a important rider in the team, never saw anything? Come on.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Good point - I just quoted Jaksche quoting Voigt in the other Voigt Thread.

Why the mods are letting 2 Voigt threads go I have no idea.

 

[Lukenwolf]

OK, let's accept for a second that Voigt never doped. It's a stretch, given that we're in the late 90s, but OK, we know there were some exceptions.

But he never saw anything? His first experience with doping was when the Festina case exploded? Mind, CA was probably clean(ish) in JV's time, but Gan wasn't clean before Festina. And Voigt, who made the Tour squad and who was a important rider in the team, never saw anything? Come on.

Well, what does "see anything" mean? I interpret it as never having seen anyone injecting (or getting injected) EPO, "recovery" or own blood transfused. Which would make sense, since it wasn't something that was practiced in public places.
Then we have Tyler Hamilton's account, who described getting his first EPO shot as "being promoted to the next level" (read: inner circle).
Jens, although on the Tour team in 1998 was only in his second year at GAN and hadn't done much so far. He won the Niedersachsen-Rundfahrt in 1997, which is a completely flat tour. If a woman lies down naked in Niedersachsen, her mammal features qualify as the highest elevation. And this being Jens, he probably won it, because he was in the right break in one of the 5 stages.
In 1998 he won zilch. If that is down to his status as a pure domestique or Paniagua or both remains speculation, but it certainly doesn't hint at excessive drug abuse.
Was he already in the "inner circle", although being relatively new to the team? Speculation, too, but if he wasn't, he hadn't much chance to see anything.

I'm still inclined to believe that he didn't see someone injecting or taking something. The important bit here is, that he didn't say "I didn't know that doping was going on". He knew it and he never said that he didn't.

About people being sceptical about him being schocked about the Festina affair. That isn't a lie. Listen to that 5Live thing "Peddlers - Cycling's dirty truth". In it Emma O'Reilly says that *she* was shocked by the sheer amount of drugs they found in the Festina car. So I think it is not too much of a stretch to believe that a pro in only his second year was taken by surprize.

 

[cineteq]

Now it's one thing to say you don't believe what he is saying. But I think Jens is making his position very clear... he is saying quite categorically he never doped.

He's position is clear, yet it could have been much stronger if he said he was aware of it. His 'naïvité' is the issue here, and it's putting his credibility in question.

 

[Benotti69]

Jens is lying plain and simple.

I dont care if there is no doping evidence against him.

I judge him in the current cycling climate by his friends and DSs. Amrstrong and Bruyneel.

 

[Baroh1488]

Thanks for the research on when people are lying however it's irrelevant to Jens' case.
There are a number of direct doping denials in Jens' blog... if you had bothered to read it.

Now it's one thing to say you don't believe what he is saying.
But I think Jens is making his position very clear... he is saying quite categorically he never doped.

There are two examples that looks like categorical denials (they are not, but almost). The other examples are taken out of context and are not categorical.

So let&#8217]I just did not ever dope[/B].

There are some who don&#8217]But again I say, no, I did not dope[/B].

The article doesn't say that a lier doesn't categorically deny a true accusation. It says that the lier has a tendency to use "convincing behaviour" instead of dwelling on facts, because he knows what he says isn't true, and therefore he cannot rely upon facts psychologically. Hence the article describes a pattern of behaviour instead of fixed rules such as "the lier would never say this or that". If the lier has some time to prepare a written statement this behaviour might be less obvious but it is still there.

Having said this I hope Jens tells the truth.

Voigt is the biggest disgarce among all cyclist.
I can't even say how much i despise him. MR Omerta himself. The biggest hypocrite in the whole peleton.
May he burn in hell! (Anybody knowing something about him knows why he deserves)

What??? Doping or not, what makes him so bad that you felt the need to write this? What do you know?

 

[Fidolix]

Jens is lying plain and simple.

I dont care if there is no doping evidence against him.

I judge him in the current cycling climate by his friends and DSs. Amrstrong and Bruyneel.

Good argument, completely and utterly BS. Thanks for sharing.