Allen Lim interview

[Cerberus]

Do you believe that marathon is a good support to show EPO use?

I do believe that marathon runners are trying to preserve their bodies all the race long, they never are pushing their VO2 limit. Shorter distances are probably better to use .

EPO actually provides a bigger boost in endurance than in short term performance, so Marathon should be a good case. Still even though the downward trend starts a few years late there's a limit to what conclusions can be drawn from one sport. Perhaps Marathoners started using EPO late or bad weather and tactical racing slowed them down a couple of years right after EPO was introduces. No way to be certain, but I think the overall evidence from other sports such as cycling 5 and 10K running and probably others, not to mention scientific studies, demonstrates that the advantage is significant.

 

[Epicycle]

I think you're wrong. Look at the best Marthon times.. where's your EPO performance jump???

I'm not wrong, I am talking about average times and top times. Look at the list for marathon.

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists/inout=o/age=n/season=0/sex=M/all=y/legal=A/disc=MAR/detail.html

The fastest time from the pre-EPO era is waaayyyy down the list. Belayneh Dinsamo with his world record from 1988 is only the 47th fastest man in history. That means 47 different men in the last 21 years have run times faster than his 1988 WR .

That list has the top 175 fastest marathons in history and you know how many of those were run before 1994? 8! That's it, only 8 of the fastest 175 marathons were run before EPO. EPO has had a huge effect on performance in endurance sports.

 

[DarkWing]

isn't the top marathon runners from poor countries for the most part?
Could be a simple matter of not being able to get a hold of the products or affording them.

 

[BikeCentric]

LOL - good analogy.

Lim obviously has his head buried so deep in the sand that an ostrich would be jealous. Gross generalizations, but I always thought neurologists were a bit wacky in general, but I am getting the impression from discussions on this forum that physiologists are way up there for having a screw loose.

What I also found weird was Lim using his "scientist" label to justify bizarre pop-psychology reasoning that has no basis in fact or reality.

 

[Berzin]

I was shocked that as a physiologist he was speaking like this.

I couldn't get through the whole interview-nothing he based his viewpoints on is logical or can be corroborated using the scientific method.

It sounds like he's the leader of a religious cult, or at the very least its' minister of propaganda.

But then again, that is the "American Hypnosis". Just believe in something hard enough and it will become so, at least in your own fevered brain.

 

[Anonymous]

I couldn't get through the whole interview-nothing he based his viewpoints on are logical or can be corroborated by science.

But then again, that is the "American Hypnosis". Just believe in something hard enough and it will become so, at least in your own fevered brain.

...uh...I am a student of history, and though I don't know your country of origin, I am willing to bet you have episodes of it in your country also.

Quite frankly, there has been a bit of xenophobic bullsh!t being thrown around these here parts in the past week or so. Just so you know, xenophobia is fucl<ing stupid regardless of where the person's parents bumped nasties and pushed them out. Sorry, but unless you actually live here, you know fucl< all about the people here. And no, infrequent visits don't count.

 

[Jonathan]

Now we know that the myth and the reality do not coincide, but it is one which has conditioned the American people (and as we see in Role's analysis) to really believe that they are just a bit more wholesome than the rest of the world, especially in matters of "fair-play" and when under fire from the outside. In this sense Mr. Armstrong is simply more cyncial than the rest in being able to make a tool of the myth and manipulate the naive US public opinion about his persona, and is no less cynical than what Cheney et all did in their fear mongering tacticts to convince the American people that Saddam Hussein really was a threat to (their) world order.

Europeans, by contrast, know that "fair-play" doesn't exist and never has....Thus the different perceptions and approaches in the rhetoric of Lim vs. the world view of any hardened seven-year-old Belgian in regards to cycling.

Great post rhubroma, thanks. I'd like to add that I think, for the reasons you mentioned, the doping cases of Landis and Hamilton have had a large impact on what was left of the clean image of cycling. Or rather, the new, americanized, image that had been rebuilt since 1999.

 

[lean mean &green]

let's get a few things straight...

Lim is and has been an employee of top teams as a physiologist for some time. He most likely wants to continue making a nice living this way.

He represents their financial interests. He does not represent or speak for all Americans, physioligists, or an objective scientific perspective etc.

Puritanical American bias exists but it is vastly overstated and is not really relevant to this discussion.

 

[BroDeal]

Jeebus! My opinion of Slipstream continues its uncontrolled downward spiral. It is like everyone associated with the team went to the Pat McQuaid School of Public Relations. None of them seem to be able to open their mouths without saying something that makes me roll my eyes. The last year could be a textbook case for how to destroy a brand.

I am waiting for Vaughters or Lim to pull out magic crystals or some other new age looniness to explain the team's newfound performance gains.

 

[blackcat]

EPO actually provides a bigger boost in endurance than in short term performance, so Marathon should be a good case. Still even though the downward trend starts a few years late there's a limit to what conclusions can be drawn from one sport. Perhaps Marathoners started using EPO late or bad weather and tactical racing slowed them down a couple of years right after EPO was introduces. No way to be certain, but I think the overall evidence from other sports such as cycling 5 and 10K running and probably others, not to mention scientific studies, demonstrates that the advantage is significant.

running is weight bearing. Majore difference. And before you say the shorter events are more taxing because they have a higher intensity, one posits that it is an aggregation, the cumulative time pounding, which is the biggest variable in the performance function. So there is declining returns on the o2 delivery, as the body is limited to what it can put out.

 

[Cerberus]

running is weight bearing. Majore difference. And before you say the shorter events are more taxing because they have a higher intensity, one posits that it is an aggregation, the cumulative time pounding, which is the biggest variable in the performance function. So there is declining returns on the o2 delivery, as the body is limited to what it can put out.

So you're saying that the limiting factor in Marathon, unlike cycling is muscular rather than Oxygen delivery? Sorry, but that's just wrong. Marathon, like Cycling is an endurance sport and the main limiting factor is Oxygen delivery. You might increase the risk of injury by using EPO, but you will run faster. There's an article about PED's, in marathon here, focusing unsurprisingly on EPO:

"For athletes engaged in endurance sports -- marathons, triathlons, long-distance cycling -- stoking the supply of oxygen to muscles is far more important than the muscle-building regimens of football players or home run hitters. [...]That's where EPO comes in."
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/19/marathon_drug_testing_is_an_uphill_task/

Also there's this article:"One of the most effective techniques to enhance marathon run performance is blood doping. [...] Several studies involving both laboratory and field studies with blood doping have revealed improved running speed in aerobic endurance events approximating eight to 10 seconds per mile."

http://www.marathonandbeyond.com/choices/williams.htm

 

[blackcat]

nope, you missed the point.

o2 doping works in running. My point, it is not limitless, because of the shock to the body from the foot pound. That is not a muscular limiter, so physiologist will surely explain this better.

Without the shock, the o2 doping would be as effective as cycling. You are saying that the improvements are both linear relative the the o2 improvement.

I am saying the running improvements are much less, relative to cycling.

 

[rhubroma]

Great post rhubroma, thanks. I'd like to add that I think, for the reasons you mentioned, the doping cases of Landis and Hamilton have had a large impact on what was left of the clean image of cycling. Or rather, the new, americanized, image that had been rebuilt since 1999.

My point was naturally about "impressions" and "perceptions," which I do think is entirely relevant in regards to to Lim's rhetoric and the audience to which it was being addressed.

Is American puritanism overplayed? Certainly among many on this site, though not, I don't think, among the "average" class in America. It still plays a big role in the Kultur's perceptions. Just ask the fanboy's of a certain someone...and not only.

And only someone speaking to his particular audience, who is obviously telling the "truth" which bodes well with the financial interests of his emplyee, could have so brazenly passed them all off for idiots. Yet he and his company know all too well, that, nevertheless, it would seem credible to many among them because of their "perceptions" and general world viewpoint.

 

[Cerberus]

nope, you missed the point.

o2 doping works in running. My point, it is not limitless, because of the shock to the body from the foot pound. That is not a muscular limiter, so physiologist will surely explain this better.

Without the shock, the o2 doping would be as effective as cycling. You are saying that the improvements are both linear relative the the o2 improvement.

I am saying the running improvements are much less, relative to cycling.

Actually I don't think I said that the performance gain was identical for cycling and running, I don't know enough about sports physiology to make such a statement with any degree of authority. All I said was that marathoners should benefit from EPO, if you're not contesting that then I don't see any disagrement.

 

[blackcat]

Actually I don't think I said that the performance gain was identical for cycling and running, I don't know enough about sports physiology to make such a statement with any degree of authority. All I said was that marathoners should benefit from EPO, if you're not contesting that then I don't see any disagrement.

was someone disputing Epicycle and the marathon times? I thought some said it was not coming down as much as would be expected.

I was qualifying it. Ofcourse o2 would be significant. I was just making my point why I thought it was not as potent, relative to say, an hour attempt on the track.

 

[Race Radio]

I think you're wrong. Look at the best Marthon times.. where's your EPO performance jump???

2008 2:03:58.2 Haile Gebreselasie-4 28 Sep Berlin GER
2007 2:04:26 Haile Gebreselasie-3 30 Sep Berlin GER
2006 2:05:56 Haile Gebreselasie-2 24 Sep Berlin GER
2005 2:06:19.5 Haile Gebreselasie (ETH) 16 Oct Amsterdam NED
2004 2:06:16 Evans Rutto (KEN) 10 Oct Chicago IL USA
2003 2:04:55 Paul Tergat (KEN) 28 Sep Berlin GER
2002 2:05:37.8 Khalid Khannouchi-3 14 Apr London ENG
2001 2:06:50 Josephat Kiprono (KEN) 22 Apr Rotterdam NED
2000 2:06:36 Antonio Pinto (POR) 16 Apr London ENG
1999 2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi-2 24 Oct Chicago IL USA
1998 2:06:05 Ronaldo daCosta (BRA) 20 Sep Berlin GER
1997 2:07:10 Khalid Khannouchi (MAR) 19 Oct Chicago IL USA
1996 2:08:25 Martin Fiz (ESP) 24 Mar Kyong-Ju KOR
1995 2:07:02 Sammy Lelei (KEN) 24 Sep Berlin GER
1994 2:07:15a Cosmas Ndeti (KEN) 18 Apr Boston MA USA
1993 2:08:51 Dionicio Ceron (MEX) 05 Dec Fukuoka JPN
1992 2:08:07 David Tsebe (RSA) 27 Sep Berlin GER
1991 2:08:53 Koichi Mori****a (JPN) 03 Feb Beppu JPN
1990 2:08:16 Steve Moneghetti (AUS) 30 Sep Berlin GER
1989 2:08:01a Juma Ikangaa (TAN) 05 Nov New York NY USA
1988 2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo (ETH) 17 Apr Rotterdam NED
1987 2:08:18 Takeyuki Nakayama (JPN) 06 Dec Fukuoka JPN
1986 2:07:51a Rob deCastella-3 21 Apr Boston MA USA
1985 2:07:12 Carlos Lopes (POR) 20 Apr Rotterdam NED
1984 2:08:05 Steve Jones (WAL) 21 Oct Chicago IL USA
1983 2:08:37 Rob deCastella-2 09 Apr Rotterdam NED
1982 2:08:52a Alberto Salazar (USA) 19 Apr Boston MA USA
1981 2:08:18 Rob deCastella (AUS) 06 Dec Fukuoka JPN
1980 2:09:01 Gerard Nijboer (NED) 26 Apr Amsterdam NED

The Marathon world record remained the same for 12 years. Despite a huge increase in popularity of the event few were able to even come close to the record.

Suddenly the record drops 4 minutes in 10 years and hundreds of athletes are able to beat what was once thought to be untouchable.

Poupou is correct that EPO is of greater help to athletes who are operating at close to max and need to sustain it for longer. This is rare in a marathon.

The 10K record saw a similar drop. After hovering for 20 years in a narrow 20 second range it suddenly drops 45 seconds in 5 years.

You can thank EPO, not better shoes, for these decreases.

 

[Cobblestones]

Also, marathon is a one-day event. Probably it should be compared to one-day races. Professionals run maybe 2-3 of those per year at peak performance.

EPO in cycling is just as much a recovery drug as anything else. During a GT it counteracts the normal drop in hemoglobin concentration and number of retics. There's of course the same benefit for long periods of hard training sessions, so it allows you to practice more and harder. All in all, I would expect EPO to have a greater effect in cycling as in marathon or any type of running events.

 

[usedtobefast]

blackcat is correct in the weightbearing issues in running. endurance in the cardio system is important, but just being able to survive the pounding, is
just as big.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Allen Lim quotes from an interview last year.

Quite keen to read the full interview; certainly some 'interesting' views expressed in the quotes you gave. I can find lots of references to the 'Allen Lim Rides the Slipstream' interview, but not the full text. Do you have a link?

 

[Digger]

Quite keen to read the full interview; certainly some 'interesting' views expressed in the quotes you gave. I can find lots of references to the 'Allen Lim Rides the Slipstream' interview, but not the full text. Do you have a link?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/paul_kimmage/article4322625.ece

 

[joe_papp]

If I ever comeback to cycling, I'm glad to know (thanks to Allen Lim) that I only need to believe in the power of positive thinking to get the same effect as boosting my Hct from 38 to 58.

 

[Cerberus]

All sports get more professional and improve training methods and diets. I don't think there is anything new in that. It's a moving process.

As for marathons. The women's marathon world record holder, Paula Radcliff, is not particularly liked by the other athletes because of her outspokenness against drug cheats over the years, and the little protests she has held against them at the side of the track. It's very hard for me to believe she used EPO.

Because hypocrisy is so rare.

 

[Ripper]

If I ever comeback to cycling, I'm glad to know (thanks to Allen Lim) that I only need to believe in the power of positive thinking to get the same effect as boosting my Hct from 38 to 58.

I believe! I believe (I have a Hct of 60)!! I believe I can climb like people 40 lbs lighter than me!!!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Because hypocrisy is so rare.

If he can't see it in Lance how's he gonna see it in anyone?

 

[Hugh Januss]

No but seriously, she really is very anti dope. There are stories about her being told to watch her back because of this.

She's probably lucky Lance didn't chase her down in the NY marathon!