Allen Lim to Testify 9/29

[thehog]

We're all presuming he worked with each team, exclusively and that he did anything wrong at RS. Considering Floyd's accounting differences from Lim's there may be some other riders that have paid for his services that may come to light. The temptation for Lim would be there if he had the hubris to go for it. Add some undeclared cash payments (the $72,000 difference between Floyd's version vs Lim's for services) and you have a felony tax evasion charge. Again, speculative but the old recommendation of: "follow the money" can uncover some unexpected nuggets.
It's about illegal drugs and buying them, not Radioshack.

Lim was doing Levi on the side the same time he was hooking Floyd up. Different teams. So yes.

 

[Berzin]

It's about illegal drugs and buying them, not Radioshack.

Yes, this is true, but before you get to proving they were buying illegal drugs first the Feds have to ascertain if they were taking them.

Probably not one that is a Ph.D. and has substantial experience in physiology and training with power meters. Lim does actually know more than rice cakes.

Geez, now I am defending Lim.

Yes, and with his training and experience in physiology and power meters, he tells us 'Roid Floyd won that breakaway stage in 2006 because of his efficient use of...water.

OK. I'll buy that. NOT.

I'm surprised you've asked this twice now. It seems to be pretty common knowledge that Armstrong hates (despises?) Vaughters and tries to flick him at every opportunity. I think he views Vaughters as a troublesome little choir boy who needs a good wedgie every now and then to keep him from talking to Paul Kimmage.

I asked because I had no idea what their relationship was like, or why Armstrong would be upset with Vaughters who, despite anything he may have said to Paul Kimmage, has really revealed nothing of substance to the media.What information has he been linked to besides that phone call with Andreu?

Berzin, that should tell you something right there. Similar to paying Phinney $140K to ride for a development team...its just about flicking Vaughters w/ no regards to financial commonsense.

Again, I had no knowledge of this. Thanks for the info.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

As to Lim and the riders spoken about - follow the Boulder CO training contingent...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

As I said, I'd love to see his 'books' as to who he was working with.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

... Add some undeclared cash payments (the $72,000 difference between Floyd's version vs Lim's for services) and you have a felony tax evasion charge. Again, speculative but the old recommendation of: "follow the money" can uncover some unexpected nuggets...

I think that's the aspect that's going to end up biting a lot of these people in the rear. They'll properly prepare to uphold the omerta in regards to doping, but have no ability to mask or cloud issues surrounding financial transactions and tax records.

I think MarkW has a very good point, neither we, nor Lim know just what the feds will come at him with. If he sits down with well prepared thoughts on doping and is ready to answer all those questions, and instead they come at him hard with financial and tax documents...

 

[Tubeless]

Judging by comments in that link the Hog provided, and simple logic, I just don't see him talking. He's been paid a LOT of money to do his job, and now shut up. He also doesn't likely have enough to lose for the feds to make him a deal he'd take. He's also likely been coached by expert attorneys heading into the GJ and is willing to gamble that Floyd doesn't have any hard evidence to contradict him. He'll say he never really saw any doping, and certainly didn't help anyone dope. And not once working for RS. He'll also do his best to spin the science to make it look like because he wasn't even looking for doping at Phonak (or RS), Floyd's numbers didn't draw enough red flags at the time, though now, in retrospect they do.

Has anyone considered this angle:

The purpose of the GJ is not to try the case, rather to be a safeguard against prosecutorial misconduct, to prevent indicting someone without "reasonable" evidence that a crime has been committed. In early stages, the GJ can act as a investigative tool, but the end objective is for the prosecutors to convince the GJ that the investigation ought to lead to a criminal indictment. If it does not, the prosecutor has indeeed wasted lots of taxpayer money on a "witch hunt".

The GJ is often criticized to be a rather one-sided institution. The prosecutors decide who they bring in. There are no defense attorneys in the GJ room and no defense witnesses or arguments will be heard.

There are likely many witnesses who have voluntarily cooperated - and did not need to be brought in to face the GJ. Some have said they'll cooperate only when served a subpoena. Finally, there is a category of key witnesses that may not be willing to cooperate even if granted immunity. But why would the prosecutors risk their case by bringing in a key witness who may derail their case in front of the GJ - unless they alreday have solid evidence to charge the witness with perjury if they don't hear what they believe to be true.

If you take this view, it certainly casts doubt that Allen Lim would be brought in just to deny everything Landis and other witneses have told the investigators already. If Mr Lim has nothing relevant to say, why would they waste time on him?

 

[sartain]

I'm not understanding this post. First of all, a victim of circumstance is someone who through no fault of their own finds themselves in a compromising position and is forced to make what would normally be an unethical and/or illegal choice. Like if your plane crashes in the Andes mountains and you're forced into cannibalism.

Lim never fit into this category. He has more expertise in doping than many give him credit for. He's not some front man like Chris Carmichael, who couldn't coach a hooker into bed.


This guy may be a hack (I am certain of this, as nothing any of his riders have done under his guidance would lead one to conclude he knows what he's talking about) but he knows his doping. He knows enough to get recruited by Armstrong personally and is pulling a hefty salary for his knowledge, regardless of who taught him and when. It certainly wasn't in school that he learned about blood doping, that's for sure.




Why would Armstrong be so vindictive against Vaughters? If anything Vaughters has kept his mouth shut to the detriment of his own credibility, and it's because of his strict observance of omerta that he is dressed in argyle with a pro tour team under his belt. If anything Armstrong should be kissing Vaughters' behind for being the faithful little slug he's been all these years.

With all due respect, Berzin, I believe CC could indeed "coach a hooker into bed". The very first time I met the clown, he was discussing this very topic on his cell phone with SirLance-A-Lot.

 

[oldschoolnik]

Whether Lim will lie will come down to what evidence he thinks the feds have or can get. If everything was between FLandis and Lim with no other witness and no transactional evidence then he will feel that it will be his word against Landis'. If others, like Leipheimer, could implicate him then he would be taking a huge risk relying on those others to keep quiet.

Totally agree with this. Eevn if he's got only one more year w/ RS at $100K or whatever - I don't see how they could ever have enough on Lim to get him with perjury. Levi will play party line so who else do we have besides FL to nail Lim? The extra $72,000 (difference between Lim and FL accounts) was likely in cash (or blood diamonds) so where is the perjury nail that seals Lim's coffin? I don't see it. being a bad lier is not going to send you to jail.

I am still waiting for the second legit name to come clean publicy an send LA and Co. down another 10% in public opinion.

 

[thehog]

Has anyone considered this angle:

The purpose of the GJ is not to try the case, rather to be a safeguard against prosecutorial misconduct, to prevent indicting someone without "reasonable" evidence that a crime has been committed. In early stages, the GJ can act as a investigative tool, but the end objective is for the prosecutors to convince the GJ that the investigation ought to lead to a criminal indictment. If it does not, the prosecutor has indeeed wasted lots of taxpayer money on a "witch hunt".

The GJ is often criticized to be a rather one-sided institution. The prosecutors decide who they bring in. There are no defense attorneys in the GJ room and no defense witnesses or arguments will be heard.

There are likely many witnesses who have voluntarily cooperated - and did not need to be brought in to face the GJ. Some have said they'll cooperate only when served a subpoena. Finally, there is a category of key witnesses that may not be willing to cooperate even if granted immunity. But why would the prosecutors risk their case by bringing in a key witness who may derail their case in front of the GJ - unless they alreday have solid evidence to charge the witness with perjury if they don't hear what they believe to be true.

If you take this view, it certainly casts doubt that Allen Lim would be brought in just to deny everything Landis and other witneses have told the investigators already. If Mr Lim has nothing relevant to say, why would they waste time on him?

I think the idea is sweep up as many little hangers as possible and bang them for perjury. Let them sweat under that heat for a while. Don't speak with Lance. Let him sit. One by one the ones who've been falling into line start to crack with threat of jail. Start releasing more & more detail to press allow Lance to defend why he's letting former associates to go jail. Then you have him. He's stuck. Checkmate. People will still hate Floyd. But at least Mr. Armstrong is behind bars where he belongs.

 

[Kennf1]

I asked because I had no idea what their relationship was like, or why Armstrong would be upset with Vaughters who, despite anything he may have said to Paul Kimmage, has really revealed nothing of substance to the media.What information has he been linked to besides that phone call with Andreu?

I think the mere fact that Vaughters left Postal to go to another team is enough the put you on Amstrong's hit list. More importantly, Vaughters started Slipstream (later Garmin) as an experiment with heavy emphasis on its internal testing program. No other team was doing it, and I'm sure this approach was an affront to Armstrong because of the implication that this was (1) needed, and (2) was in contrast to the old school teams (i.e. Postal).

The IM exchange between Vaughters and Andreu is the closest he has come to talking about doping. Beyond that he has been very, very cautious in his statements, since he still has to work in the system.

 

[Oldman]

Totally agree with this. Eevn if he's got only one more year w/ RS at $100K or whatever - I don't see how they could ever have enough on Lim to get him with perjury. Levi will play party line so who else do we have besides FL to nail Lim? The extra $72,000 (difference between Lim and FL accounts) was likely in cash (or blood diamonds) so where is the perjury nail that seals Lim's coffin? I don't see it. being a bad lier is not going to send you to jail.

I am still waiting for the second legit name to come clean publicy an send LA and Co. down another 10% in public opinion.

No perjury-the tax charges or potential fraudulent non-disclosure of income would be enough to get information out of him. As for those that think they actually have to catch someone taking drugs...you're wrong. Conspiracy to commit a crime is just that; and if it involves controlled substances or illegal movement of funds (wire fraud) there never actually has to be any drugs. As several folks have said; start looking at his consulting logs for clients vs. payments.

 

[Tubeless]

I think the idea is sweep up as many little hangers as possible and bang them for perjury. Let them sweat under that heat for a while. Don't speak with Lance. Let him sit. One by one the ones who've been falling into line start to crack with threat of jail. Start releasing more & more detail to press allow Lance to defend why he's letting former associates to go jail. Then you have him. He's stuck. Checkmate. People will still hate Floyd. But at least Mr. Armstrong is behind bars where he belongs.

The problem is the looming deadline - an indictment of Armstrong must happen before the end of the year before the statue of limitations kicks for some of the potential crimes committed. Charging someone for perjury and seeing them convicted is a longer process to apply pressure via that route.

And I doubt Lance would shed any tears if Allen Lim ends up suffering for him, he'd probably think that's what he got paid to do anyhow...

My guess is that Allen Lim is brought in to tell what's been happening within RadioShack. The prosecutors likely have enough evidence via Landis and others that Lim is complicit, and will fold under questioning. Because he's still employed by RadioShack, he would have not agreed to cooperate without receiving a subpoena. But listening to him on video, this fellow does not come across as a professional liar. That too, argues that he'll say what he knows.

 

[dolophonic]

Just in case anyone wonders, I believe Lim is going to uphold the omerta and say he never knew Floyd took anything, or ever saw anyone else dope with anything. He'll be grilled by prosecutors who will ask how he can be a doctor, a renowned physiologist, "scientist" as he likes to say, and not even suspect a single thing while looking at Floyd's detailed diaries, analyzing Floyd's power outputs, and seeing that Floyd had the highest hct ever taken at the 3rd week of the Tour (over 49, while his normal is 42), and he will have to plea ignorance, stupidity; That uneducated, Mennonite farm boy Floyd fooled him on the science.

Yes.. he is a snake.
Also he took credit for the whole rice cake thing. We know that is not his original recipe, anyone willing to do that is capable of any kind of trickery.

 

[MacRoadie]

I guess I'm just confused.

In 2006 we got this:

The science behind an exploit.

"I think that absolutely makes a difference on a stage like today’s,” he said. “This morning I made a list of everything that I thought went wrong and also asked him to weigh himself. He didn’t know what I was at, but when he stepped on the scales I had brought, it showed that his body weight was pretty low, as compared to what we would expect it to be [implying dehydration - ed.]. We looked at it and then I said, ‘make sure that you don’t lose any weight today.’ He got it, he knows, he is a smart guy.”

and

“Floyd averaged 280 watts for the entire ride, but it was 318 for the last two hours. That is while the bike is moving, so you have take into account that he has all those long descents,” he said. “On the descents he spent 13.2 percent of his time or 43 minutes coasting. If you spend that much coasting but are as good a descender as he is, you are making up time on the descents as well.

"However, if we don’t include the coasting time, he averaged 324 watts while pedalling for the stage and 364 watts over the last two hours. That gave him a total of 5,456 Kjoules of work, at an average cadence of 89 rpm. The nature of it is that everything he did today is within the realms of physiological capacity. It was the style with which he did it, the panache and the bravado and the courage [which stood out].

and

"No, they weren’t the best. But you know what, it was ballsy. That is the thing. He has done better in training and he has done better at [individual] points during this Tour. But the thing is that he was so motivated and also that they didn’t chase. They let it go. He stuck it in their face and he got away with it.

.

Now, we get:

Report: RadioShack staffer to testify.

When I worked with Floyd, I repeatedly told him that he didn't need to dope and should not dope, and I was absolutely not hired to help him to do so.

So which is it? Is it the guy who won based on good training and Lim's scientific approach (and within the "realms of physiological capacity"), or is it the guy who had to be told olver and over that he didn't need to dope?

 

[tofino]

A couple of things

Who's paying for Lim's lawyer. Interesting to see if he has a lawyer talking for him on Wednesday.

What does Lim know? A F'in alot. And more than how to pour water on your head.

The fed's already know what Lim knows (via Landis other people) but they're going to cook him on the stand. I'm guessing he'll crack like an egg. The legal question is what happens if two or three other people say I saw Lim do this but than he says it never happened???

Also if he went in at 9:30 and he gets out at the end of the day thats alot of time sitting around. The fact that he went in at 9:30 does not mean that he went on the stand immediately but hopefully he was on the stand for a long period of time.

But Lim would have no first hand knowledge of what happened at Postal so that's got me wondering what they're going to do to tie this all together.

 

[Ferminal]

I know now, Allen Lim was not the purported Frankenstein doctor, made out to be here on this forum. And I WAS one of the scathing critics of him. He was basically just a go-fer. He was not the brains, nor the logistics, behind the operation on Phonak, and one extrapolates, Garmin. He may have been a cog, but a fungible part, that another underling would have played that role, if he had not.

Not a significant player in the operation. Might be a victim of circumstance.

Radioshack's money, and stealing Lim, was Phinney mkII. Nothing about doping, just about oneupmanship on Vaughters.

Dont expect much relevant stuff, at his GJ

Interesting.

I don't think Garmin 2009 is off the hook though.

 

[NashbarShorts]

The IM exchange between Vaughters and Andreu is the closest he has come to talking about doping. Beyond that he has been very, very cautious in his statements, since he still has to work in the system.

Not quite... in the Kimmage interview/article, Vaughters admits to doping while at Postal. He says he won a mountain stage of the Dauphine while 'hot', and said that was an epiphany for him -- dope and you can win. Also in the Kimmage article, most of the other ex-Postal brigade (Zabriskie, VandVelde, etc.) told Kimmage things that "shocked" him.

Anyways, if you read the article, this is clear as day. Kimmage writes it all in an "off-the-record" kind of way. If you think that article didn't infuriate the YellowMan...

The whole concept of Slipstream as the first "clean team"... that was revolutionary and no-doubt an affront to a man who tells us we need to "believe" in cycling -- while he stands on the podium next to Basso and derJan.

Also, don't forget Lance's interaction w/ Vaugters the year he had to pull out of the TdF due to the bee-sting. Lance sought him out on the start line and basically laughed in his face, saying if he rode for Postal they'd have given him the cortisone AND paid off the UCI.

Suffice it to say, Lance ain't a real big JV fan...

 

[theswordsman]

Livingston is kind of a tag along on this topic, so I thought I'd share this quote. I'd love to see it on video to see his reaction and hear his tone of voice.

When approached last week at Armstrong’s bike shop in Austin, Livingston was reluctant to talk about his involvement in the case.

“What investigation?” Livingston said. “Sorry, I don’t know. I can’t talk about that. Who’s mentioning my name? Who’s saying I’m involved? Which other riders are mentioning my name?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/sports/cycling/30armstrong.html?_r=1

 

[Oldman]

Livingston is kind of a tag along on this topic, so I thought I'd share this quote. I'd love to see it on video to see his reaction and hear his tone of voice.

When approached last week at Armstrong’s bike shop in Austin, Livingston was reluctant to talk about his involvement in the case.

“What investigation?” Livingston said. “Sorry, I don’t know. I can’t talk about that. Who’s mentioning my name? Who’s saying I’m involved? Which other riders are mentioning my name?”

Next line

"Dude, where's my car? I need to get going"

 

[stephens]

In a battle of wits, I think we'd all pick Lim over Landis. So the feds better have come up with something better than Landis' word if they hope to get a perjury charge on Lim.

 

[Race Radio]

In a battle of wits, I think we'd all pick Lim over Landis. So the feds better have come up with something better than Landis' word if they hope to get a perjury charge on Lim.

So far they have 4 former teammates.

 

[Bike Opera]

So.......

Remember Allen Lim?

Does anyone know what went down at the LA courthouse yesterday?

Cr@p! This whole Contador beef poisoning mess is depressing as h3ll.

I hope this blows over soon so we can all get back to >>>Lance<<<.