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Allen Lim to Testify 9/29

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Feb 14, 2010
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Berzin said:
I'm not understanding this post. First of all, a victim of circumstance is someone who through no fault of their own finds themselves in a compromising position and is forced to make what would normally be an unethical and/or illegal choice. Like if your plane crashes in the Andes mountains and you're forced into cannibalism.

Lim never fit into this category. He has more expertise in doping than many give him credit for, judging by the salary he is pulling at Radio Shack. He's not some front man like Chris Carmichael, who couldn't coach a hooker into bed.

This guy may be a hack (I am certain of this, as nothing any of his riders have done under his guidance would lead one to conclude he knows what he's talking about) but he knows his doping, whether he learned it from Floyd is besides the point. He knows.


Not to try to defend Lim, BUT, I don't think you can equate salary with doping expertise. RadioShack wanted to steal him from Garmin. I'm sure Lim felt comfortable at Garmin, which meshed nicely with the money he got from Saris/Powertap. Radioshak would have to offer substantially more to get him, particularly with some of his previous comments that anything over 6 watts/kg. was not possible naturally. Lim knew his credibility would take somewhat of a hit as well. Plus, the guy may actually know about non-enhanced training.
 
blackcat said:
Not a significant player in the operation. Might be a victim of circumstance.

I agree with the first part-although his testimony will be useful when riders couched by him start to contradict themselves with whatever he said.
the second part: I honestly doubt the victim card--he wasn't the mastermind behind the "medical program", but he must have been aware of it, & since he had to run tests/physiological evaluations, he needed to be informed what the riders were taking... he just covered up with the infamous rice cakes;)
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Kennf1 said:
Not to try to defend Lim, BUT, I don't think you can equate salary with doping expertise. RadioShack wanted to steal him from Garmin. I'm sure Lim felt comfortable at Garmin, which meshed nicely with the money he got from Saris/Powertap. Radioshak would have to offer substantially more to get him, particularly with some of his previous comments that anything over 6 watts/kg. was not possible naturally. Lim knew his credibility would take somewhat of a hit as well. Plus, the guy may actually know about non-enhanced training.

At Garmin he was putting in massive hours doing all sorts of things, and if I remember right, he spent a lot of time in Girona helping guys train. He said one reason he accepted the RS offer was because he'd get to spend more time at home.

Also, that link I posted above is an AP story. Maybe they'll have a reporter and photographer nearby to catch him when he leaves.
 
Berzin said:
Why would Armstrong be so vindictive against Vaughters? If anything Vaughters has kept his mouth shut to the detriment of his own credibility, and it's because of his strict observance of omerta that he is dressed in argyle with a pro tour team under his belt. If anything Armstrong should be kissing Vaughters' behind for being the faithful little slug he's been all these years.

Since when does he need a reason to screw someone? Maybe he did it just because he could.
 
Kennf1 said:
Not to try to defend Lim, BUT, I don't think you can equate salary with doping expertise.

In this case, I wholeheartedly disagree. $500,000 is a LOT of money to pay a support staff member of a cycling team. And for a team that has built their success on an organized doping program, you do not throw this amount of coin at someone who doesn't have the required doping expertise. You can get any old Asian hag to prepare rice cakes and boiled potato treats, and she would be a lot cheaper than this clown, that's for sure.


Kennf1 said:
RadioShack wanted to steal him from Garmin.

Again, why? How and why was this guy such a hot property when I've yet to hear anything groundbreaking from the research he's done? If anything, his work speaks to the direct opposite-that he comes up with physiologically implausible explanations to mask doping practices. Remember his explanation for Landis' drug-fueled breakaway effort at the 2006 Tour? Or what about Bradley Wiggins' success at the 2009 Tour?


Kennf1 said:
I'm sure Lim felt comfortable at Garmin, which meshed nicely with the money he got from Saris/Powertap. Radioshak would have to offer substantially more to get him, particularly with some of his previous comments that anything over 6 watts/kg. was not possible naturally. Lim knew his credibility would take somewhat of a hit as well. Plus, the guy may actually know about non-enhanced training.

There was never a bidding war for his services. Lim's employment was not renewed at Garmin. We never knew the reason why he wasn't asked back, but Lim himself said he was making peanuts. In fact, when he worked for Floyd his salary was either under 10 or 20 grand a year, I forgot which. Either number would be pitiful, but he was making crap money.

As for his credibility taking a hit, he doesn't seem to care. He has built his reputation on smoke and mirrors. The only expertise a pro tour team would pay this amount of money for is someone who is well-versed at getting around those anti-doping controls and to keep riders off the radar with the bio-passport. And you don't do that with gluten-free rice cakes or boiled potato snack packs.
 
The guy is a dork. He wanted to be the next Ferrari and set up his own "clinic" in the US.

Can you imagine how p1ssed Floyd was when he saw Armstrong hired Lim? Like if there ever was a reason to come clean and bust the number one cheat in the world it was the time. Seeing Lim hired for the "clean" (cough) comeback 2.0 would have been like a knife in the back when the Hog and Sir Lance wouldn't hire Landis.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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theswordsman said:
Velonews had a lengthy article about the change of teams, with quotes by Lim and Vaughters. A lot of it applies to the conversation happening here - too much for me to quote.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009...bout-new-opportunities-and-challenges”_101797

Rereading it you get the impression that that RS hired him because they could. After seeing gains in the competition you'd want to assess any strategy that would help RS and hurt Garmin. That, and Lance's entire focus from Lemond to Landis seems aimed at establishing LA, the brand, as the only US cycling Hero. As for Lim masterminding the RS "program"; it would be doubtful there would be anything to administer as each riders protocols should have been established some time ago.
 
Jul 29, 2010
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Berzin said:
Why would Armstrong be so vindictive against Vaughters?

I'm surprised you've asked this twice now. It seems to be pretty common knowledge that Armstrong hates (despises?) Vaughters and tries to flick him at every opportunity. I think he views Vaughters as a troublesome little choir boy who needs a good wedgie every now and then to keep him from talking to Paul Kimmage :(

RRadio, is that $500K figure verifiable, or just insider knowledge? Is that per year?? What is a ridiculous sum.

Berzin, that should tell you something right there. Similar to paying Phinney $140K to ride for a development team...its just about flicking Vaughters w/ no regards to financial commonsense.
 
Lim would be the latest witness in a probe that has featured some of cycling's biggest names, including Armstrong, who is a target of the investigation; Landis, who told authorities he participated in organized doping during the three years he rode for the U.S. Postal Service team; and triple Tour winner Greg LeMond, who in response to a subpoena turned over voluminous files related to civil litigation against Armstrong's longtime sponsor, the Trek Bicycle Co.

One of the people who spoke on condition of anonymity also told The Associated Press that former cyclist Kevin Livingston also has been subpoenaed and could testify before the grand jury as early as Wednesday. Livingston rode on Armstrong's Tour-winning teams in 1999 and 2000 and now works as a coach, operating out of the basement of an upscale bike shop in Austin that is co-owned by Armstrong.

Lim, a Ph.D. in exercise physiology who joined Team RadioShack for the 2010 season, has consistently denied the allegations by Landis, who also accused seven-time Tour winner Armstrong of doping.

"Floyd's admission speaks for itself," he told Ford last May. "The only thing I know with certainty is that I could not work with an athlete whom I knew to be using performance-enhancing drugs. I've worked very hard to make this a better sport."

Landis told Ford a different account last spring, saying that he paid Lim $80,000 during the 2005 season, chiefly for helping with the logistics of transporting bags of Landis' own blood to be transfused. The method, known as blood doping, increases an endurance athlete's ability to process oxygen.

Lim vehemently denied the arrangement and said Landis paid him a fraction of that amount for training advice only.

"The thing is, he really didn't know anything about the doping, and by that time, I had learned it all," Landis told Ford during a lengthy interview last May, his first public admission that he had lied for the previous four years about doping during his career.

"I just needed somebody around that was smart and educated and I could trust, with dealing with logistics. I originally hired him to be an assistant and be around when I was training and drive a car behind me. ... Eventually he did help me with the other stuff. But it was more my own knowledge that I used to do that, it wasn't any advice I got from him. He just happened to help because it was there."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=5627457
 
Lim would not confirm specifics of any grand jury appearance, but in a telephone call Tuesday night, he told ESPN.com's Bonnie D. Ford: "I am cooperating with the federal investigation and look forward to setting the record straight. When I worked with Floyd, I repeatedly told him that he didn't need to dope and should not dope, and I was absolutely not hired to help him to do so. Since then, I've spent my career promoting clean sport and keeping innumerable athletes from cheating, as well as assisting in catching those who are."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=5627457
 
May 20, 2010
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Berzin said:
I'm not understanding this post. First of all, a victim of circumstance is someone who through no fault of their own finds themselves in a compromising position and is forced to make what would normally be an unethical and/or illegal choice. Like if your plane crashes in the Andes mountains and you're forced into cannibalism.

Lim never fit into this category. He has more expertise in doping than many give him credit for. He's not some front man like Chris Carmichael, who couldn't coach a hooker into bed.

This guy may be a hack (I am certain of this, as nothing any of his riders have done under his guidance would lead one to conclude he knows what he's talking about) but he knows his doping. He knows enough to get recruited by Armstrong personally and is pulling a hefty salary for his knowledge, regardless of who taught him and when. It certainly wasn't in school that he learned about blood doping, that's for sure.




Why would Armstrong be so vindictive against Vaughters? If anything Vaughters has kept his mouth shut to the detriment of his own credibility, and it's because of his strict observance of omerta that he is dressed in argyle with a pro tour team under his belt. If anything Armstrong should be kissing Vaughters' behind for being the faithful little slug he's been all these years.

Berzin's daily dose of comic relief! Thanks.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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I've had a lot of interaction with Lim, mostly on the cusp of him getting into the big international scene.

He is retardedly smart at his job as a physiologist, was way ahead of the curve in terms of tracking rider development re wattage and BMI/body scan indices, and totally passionate with what he was doing.

My flags went up when I saw him at Phonak...

To write him off as a 'gofer' is disingenuous. The guy knows his ****, and that coupled with his palmares of high zoot teams, and an honestly ridiculous salary, can only lend to the cloud of doubt around his dealings with RS et al.

Based on previous interviews, I can only see him towing the party line. That's a shame. I know he can't deal with overt pressure too well, so hopefully in the end he'll squeal.

I can only hope, although in the last couple of weeks it seems that the case is losing a little bit of steam. I'm sure that once the disenfranchised come out of the woodwork, the tone may change...

I know it's America, but testimony from the monied shouldn't trump testimony from the proletariat. I can't wait to see who starts talking...
 
May 20, 2010
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Much of what motivates them is simply tit for tat. Amassing wealth, power and influence has been the primary goal and to great effect. Buying Lim, another rider, or support staff would have been easy.
Hell, they would've bought another teams' bus driver if they thought it would be beneficial either to the botom line or the psych war.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Berzin said:
You can get any old Asian hag to prepare rice cakes and boiled potato treats, and she would be a lot cheaper than this clown, that's for sure.

Probably not one that is a Ph.D. and has substantial experience in physiology and training with power meters. Lim does actually know more than rice cakes.


Geez, now I am defending Lim.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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TexPat said:
Much of what motivates them is simply tit for tat. Amassing wealth, power and influence has been the primary goal and to great effect. Buying Lim, another rider, or support staff would have been easy.
Hell, they would've bought another teams' bus driver if they thought it would be beneficial either to the botom line or the psych war.

Agreed! But the half mil for a doc they could secure in Europe for 50k to track training parameters is a bit sketchy...

Maybe the cheque's not released until he proves he can clam up.

I really don't want to speculate too much more, but man I can't wait to see what comes out of the testimony...
 
Judging by comments in that link the Hog provided, and simple logic, I just don't see him talking. He's been paid a LOT of money to do his job, and now shut up. He also doesn't likely have enough to lose for the feds to make him a deal he'd take. He's also likely been coached by expert attorneys heading into the GJ and is willing to gamble that Floyd doesn't have any hard evidence to contradict him. He'll say he never really saw any doping, and certainly didn't help anyone dope. And not once working for RS. He'll also do his best to spin the science to make it look like because he wasn't even looking for doping at Phonak (or RS), Floyd's numbers didn't draw enough red flags at the time, though now, in retrospect they do.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Judging by comments in that link the Hog provided, and simple logic, I just don't see him talking....

Yup. And that's a f****** shame. The riders doing dope is pathetic enough, but once you have an institutionalized structure within teams, docs and pseudo docs providing help and programs, and the professional help to keep you 'clean', well that's disgusting.

Even more that seeing LA burn, I'd love for these 'helpers' to get gutted as well.

Is there no hope for the sport?
 
May 26, 2010
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Well, there would be thought that if this guy know's his stuff, how can he explain the unbelievable performances and effort by mere humans over a gruelling 3 week period if it wasn't PEDs?

Of course he knew it was PEDs and he had to be part of it as his so called physiology tests and programs would be way off if he was not controlling or aware at the least to what they were taking?

If the GJ know their stuff then Lim might be hard to put to it.

Can the GJ call in experts to question people called to the GJ to give evidence/testimony/interviews
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Judging by comments in that link the Hog provided, and simple logic, I just don't see him talking. He's been paid a LOT of money to do his job, and now shut up. He also doesn't likely have enough to lose for the feds to make him a deal he'd take. He's also likely been coached by expert attorneys heading into the GJ and is willing to gamble that Floyd doesn't have any hard evidence to contradict him. He'll say he never really saw any doping, and certainly didn't help anyone dope. And not once working for RS. He'll also do his best to spin the science to make it look like because he wasn't even looking for doping at Phonak (or RS), Floyd's numbers didn't draw enough red flags at the time, though now, in retrospect they do.

We're all presuming he worked with each team, exclusively and that he did anything wrong at RS. Considering Floyd's accounting differences from Lim's there may be some other riders that have paid for his services that may come to light. The temptation for Lim would be there if he had the hubris to go for it. Add some undeclared cash payments (the $72,000 difference between Floyd's version vs Lim's for services) and you have a felony tax evasion charge. Again, speculative but the old recommendation of: "follow the money" can uncover some unexpected nuggets.
It's about illegal drugs and buying them, not Radioshack.
 
Jul 11, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Judging by comments in that link the Hog provided, and simple logic, I just don't see him talking. He's been paid a LOT of money to do his job, and now shut up.

Exactly.

Stand next to damned bus and give us anti-doping street cred
+
Shut yer pie hole
====================
$500K
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Once again, agreed! It doesn't take advanced degrees in exphys to see, and KNOW, that hematocrit levels CANNOT change dramatically over short periods of time.

Hopefully Lim's books will be on the docket, with an attending Dr. pummeling him with questions. That's my hope, put enough pressure on those involved until they have no option.

Mind you, I don't know the American legal system. How far can you get by pleading ignorant? Especially if you're paid 500k for your 'expertise'. How stupid can you get away with?

I'm pretty dumb, and for half a million bucks I can be really stupid. Is that any sort of defense?
 
more to it

BroDeal said:
Whether Lim will lie will come down to what evidence he thinks the feds have or can get. If everything was between FLandis and Lim with no other witness and no transactional evidence then he will feel that it will be his word against Landis'. If others, like Leipheimer, could implicate him then he would be taking a huge risk relying on those others to keep quiet.

Too simplistic. Lim won't know just what the feds have got (or will get). He has imperfect knowledge and that will play havoc with any inclination he might have to lie or dissemble.

My bet is Lim won't lie. A perjury conviction would foul future academic job avenues, while GJ testimony might very well never reach the public eye.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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NashbarShorts said:
I'm surprised you've asked this twice now. It seems to be pretty common knowledge that Armstrong hates (despises?) Vaughters and tries to flick him at every opportunity. I think he views Vaughters as a troublesome little choir boy who needs a good wedgie every now and then to keep him from talking to Paul Kimmage :(

lance has only fkin blocked vaughters on twitter! lance doesn't get much harsher than that.

and that'll show badboy vaughters, not getting to see tweets about how psyched his cancerness is to be recieving tweets off his son!! :rolleyes:

I am starting to wonder, does lance get off more on a) having a new follower on twitter or b) shagging prostitutes or c) winning cycling races