Allen Lim

[Publicus]

I hate to point out the obvious, but at this point ALL of Floyd's accussations are unfounded. Good for the goose and all.

No parallel at all. Lance made an allegation (that Floyd was attempting to blackmail him) and said he had proof. He offered it (the emails) and there was no support for his allegation. Hence Armstrong's allegation can be properly describe as unfounded.

Floyd's allegations, and whatever corroborating evidence he has offered, are still being examined. As such, they are still properly referred to as allegations. It is only upon the examination of the body of corroborating evidence that one can conclude that the allegations are founded or unfounded.

Hope that helps.

 

[Publicus]

Oh, apparently he asked to ride with JB again, and was turned down.

He did not ask JB anything. Though in fairness, he did ask Mr. Armstrong if he wanted to attend his meeting with USADA.

 

[Race Radio]

Dr. Lim should have known.

Glad you came around to reality.

 

[weasel]

Concerned

Glad you came around to reality.

I'm a little concerned that people are getting off track here re blood. I've read through the thread and looked at the OS (open source) info and Gree## seems to be one of the few that actually offers credible points, with supporting links and material.

The reason I write is that I feel a little uncomfortable with the "crit" numbers being waved around as my own hematacrit hovers around 46% to >50%. And guess what? I live at sea level, have no blood disease, am slightly over weight and ride a bike on weekends if I am lucky. Yet to read what people here are espousing I must be a "doper".

I'm not. I am a normal citizen, so how is it that Dr. Lim is supposed to read something unusual in Mr. Landis' blood info based on high hematacrit numbers when glancing at them, his numbers are lower then mine, an average Joe who might get to 25 mph with a tail wind?

The answer is he can't. Especially if he is as all knowing as some people give him credit, as then he would know that people like myself exist, right?

cheers

w

 

[131313]

I'm a little concerned that people are getting off track here re blood. I've read through the thread and looked at the OS (open source) info and Gree## seems to be one of the few that actually offers credible points, with supporting links and material.

no he doesn't

The reason I write is that I feel a little uncomfortable with the "crit" numbers being waved around as my own hematacrit hovers around 46% to >50%. And guess what? I live at sea level, have no blood disease, am slightly over weight and ride a bike on weekends if I am lucky. Yet to read what people here are espousing I must be a "doper".

really? could you point to a specific post where someone talks about the HCT numbers of a sedentary individual? Do a 3 week bike race and report back... This isn't stuff that's pulled out of thin air. The human body's response to exhaustive exercise is fairly well understood, and well-documented.

I am a normal citizen, so how is it that Dr. Lim is supposed to read something unusual in Mr. Landis' blood info based on high hematacrit numbers when glancing at them, his numbers are lower then mine, an average Joe who might get to 25 mph with a tail wind?

The answer is he can't. Especially if he is as all knowing as some people give him credit, as then he would know that people like myself exist, right?

The answer is, he should have a basic understanding of exercise physiology (even though you obviously don't) since he has a PhD in the field...

He's either horribly incompetent, or he's a liar. It's as simple as that.

You either have very little understanding of how the body responds to exercise, or you're blatantly trolling. I'm guessing the latter, but I figured I'd answer your question just in case....

 

[zwiebel2004]

Weasel,

Remember that with heavy training a pro cyclist HCT SHOULD be lower than yours.

If you have a rider doing large training weeks, or a grand tour and they still have a very high HCT it is cause for suspicion.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Gree## seems to be one of the few that actually offers credible points, with supporting links and material.

Hmm...

First post.

Supports Gree, out of thin air.

Grossly misunderstands HCT response in elite athletes relative to extended strenuous exercise.

Blindly defends Allen Lim's honor.

FAIL.

 

[MacRoadie]

Gree## seems to be one of the few that actually offers credible points, with supporting links and material.

I live at sea level, have no blood disease, am slightly over weight and ride a bike on weekends if I am lucky.

I'm not. I am a normal citizen, so how is it that Dr. Lim is supposed to read something unusual in Mr. Landis' blood info based on high hematacrit numbers when glancing at them, his numbers are lower then mine, an average Joe who might get to 25 mph with a tail wind?

Pegged and bending the needle.

 

[weasel]

I'm a "troll" because I voice a legitimate personal concern that I find alarming because of the content of this thread and hence my "1st post"?

As an observor, just to cite the last few pages alone, Gree has provided supporting material to accompany his line of thought, whereas the above are just personal attacks (e.g. "troll") against me for pointing out the obvious.

I would suggest that all involved in this thread believe they are good people, just as I am sure Dr. Lim, Mr.Landis and Sadam Hussein believe(d) they are good people.

However, if you make assertions without supporting material then you are making an assumption about something. e.g. Hematacrit numbers. Seeing so many assumptions flying around, I thought it prudent to give an example of my own situation before you would condemn me and others like me to be 2nd class citizens.

Our constitution is based upon assumptions derived from the declaration of Independence (tacit). In other words, it is ok to make assumptions so long as they are in line with that constitution. Its called "rule of law". But to make assumptions about people that are not in line with the constitution (again e.g. "troll") is hyperbolae.

There is one assumption that our constitution makes explicit. A person is considered innocent by our community until proven guilty. It is a concrete rule we live by and I would suggest the American's on this forum stick to it, or find other citizenship. Remember; we are all "good guys". It is up to the law to figure out when "good guys" have strayed off the line and correct that behavior, not individuals like us (assuming there are no lawyers here lol).

To the one person who explained that hematacrit numbers go down after training; thankyou. I find that comforting and will continue to strive for that.

cheers

w

 

[Race Radio]

Random babble in the same format as Gree

You forget that your Hct is measured on a variety of machines of unknown calibration. Landis' was measured with Calibrated UCI and WADA machines with minimal variation. As Garmin found with their internal testing program that the variance of most hospital machines can be huge, the UCI's were .03

Of course if you had actually read the thread instead of just signed up a new username to troll you would have known this.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I'm a "troll" because I voice a legitimate personal concern that I find alarming because of the content of this thread and hence my "1st post"?

As an observor, just to cite the last few pages alone, Gree has provided supporting material to accompany his line of thought, whereas the above are just personal attacks (e.g. "troll") against me for pointing out the obvious.

I would suggest that all involved in this thread believe they are good people, just as I am sure Dr. Lim, Mr.Landis and Sadam Hussein believe(d) they are good people.

However, if you make assertions without supporting material then you are making an assumption about something. e.g. Hematacrit numbers. Seeing so many assumptions flying around, I thought it prudent to give an example of my own situation before you would condemn me and others like me to be 2nd class citizens.

Our constitution is based upon assumptions derived from the declaration of Independence (tacit). In other words, it is ok to make assumptions so long as they are in line with that constitution. Its called "rule of law". But to make assumptions about people that are not in line with the constitution (again e.g. "troll") is hyperbolae.

There is one assumption that our constitution makes explicit. A person is considered innocent by our community until proven guilty. It is a concrete rule we live by and I would suggest the American's on this forum stick to it, or find other citizenship. Remember; we are all "good guys". It is up to the law to figure out when "good guys" have strayed off the line and correct that behavior, not individuals like us (assuming there are no lawyers here lol).

To the one person who explained that hematacrit numbers go down after training; thankyou. I find that comforting and will continue to strive for that.

cheers

w

What you seem to be missing is a little item the Americans enjoy called Freedom of Speech. Say what you want. No footnote required.

You also are missing the idea that many on this forum are simply exponentially more informed than you and don't need to post a footnote or citation on proven accepted concepts. If you need them, invest the time to look it up. It is called learning, and this forum does not move at the speed of the lowest common denominator.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm a "troll" because I voice a legitimate personal concern that I find alarming because of the content of this thread and hence my "1st post"?

As an observor, just to cite the last few pages alone, Gree has provided supporting material to accompany his line of thought, whereas the above are just personal attacks (e.g. "troll") against me for pointing out the obvious.

I would suggest that all involved in this thread believe they are good people, just as I am sure Dr. Lim, Mr.Landis and Sadam Hussein believe(d) they are good people.

However, if you make assertions without supporting material then you are making an assumption about something. e.g. Hematacrit numbers. Seeing so many assumptions flying around, I thought it prudent to give an example of my own situation before you would condemn me and others like me to be 2nd class citizens.

Our constitution is based upon assumptions derived from the declaration of Independence (tacit). In other words, it is ok to make assumptions so long as they are in line with that constitution. Its called "rule of law". But to make assumptions about people that are not in line with the constitution (again e.g. "troll") is hyperbolae.

There is one assumption that our constitution makes explicit. A person is considered innocent by our community until proven guilty. It is a concrete rule we live by and I would suggest the American's on this forum stick to it, or find other citizenship. Remember; we are all "good guys". It is up to the law to figure out when "good guys" have strayed off the line and correct that behavior, not individuals like us (assuming there are no lawyers here lol).

To the one person who explained that hematacrit numbers go down after training; thankyou. I find that comforting and will continue to strive for that.

cheers

w

Lets dismiss one of your assumptions, I am not an American, nor presently reside in your country.

This is not a 'Court of Law' - we are not sanctioning people.

You "suggest" the Americans on this "forum" respect the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle......... on a 'forum'??

I would suggest having a read of your constitution and in particular the part to free speech.

 

[MacRoadie]

There is one assumption that our constitution makes explicit. A person is considered innocent by our community until proven guilty.

Actually, I'd like to know where in the Constitution that "assumption" is made "explicit".

Can you help me out with a cite?

 

[Kennf1]

Our constitution is based upon assumptions derived from the declaration of Independence (tacit). In other words, it is ok to make assumptions so long as they are in line with that constitution. Its called "rule of law". But to make assumptions about people that are not in line with the constitution (again e.g. "troll") is hyperbolae.

There is one assumption that our constitution makes explicit. A person is considered innocent by our community until proven guilty. It is a concrete rule we live by and I would suggest the American's on this forum stick to it, or find other citizenship. Remember; we are all "good guys". It is up to the law to figure out when "good guys" have strayed off the line and correct that behavior, not individuals like us (assuming there are no lawyers here lol).

To the one person who explained that hematacrit numbers go down after training; thankyou. I find that comforting and will continue to strive for that.

cheers

w

As has been pointed out already, you're confusing criminal law concepts with the basic ways in which humans interact in society. If you're having a conversation, and someone makes an assumption about another person, do you suddenly say "that's unconstitutional!"? How bizarre.

By the way, there is nothing in the constitution expicitly saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty. It's a concept taken from English jurisprudence, and is more common law than statutory. But thanks for the lecture to all Americans posting on this forum.

I have the consitutional right to make any assumptions I want to, and to voice my opinion. If you disagree with that right, I suggest alternative citizenship.

 

[MacRoadie]

By the way, there is nothing in the constitution expicitly saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty. It's a concept taken from English jurisprudence, and is more common law than statutory. But thanks for the lecture to all Americans posting on this forum.

Gee thanks Kenn. I was hoping to sit back and enjoy the wailing and flailing as our esteemed poster struggled to prove his point (post #360).

Ya took the fun right out of it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Gee thanks Kenn. I was hoping to sit back and enjoy the wailing and flailing as our esteemed poster struggled to prove his point (post #360).

Ya took the fun right out of it.

Well I'm still having fun. Weasil is awesome, 2 posts and he hasn't even been in the general vicinity of a legitimate point yet.

 

[weasel]

incredible

You guys are a trip...

I'm not letting you get away with smearing a person based upon assumptions and all you can do is attack me personally without addressing any of the issues I have raised.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a corner stone of our society. If you care to debate that, go right ahead. It will not change that fact.

What is evident here is that Forum behavior often results in "birds of a feather, flocking together", resulting in an unbalanced fan-boy fest. If you hate Dr. Lim then fine, that is your opinion, but don't try to hide behind a facade of intellectual piety, while pursuing your lynch mob agenda. People are free to have their opinions, yet I see no basis for the arguments presented against Dr. Lim here and some border on slander.

As has been pointed out by various people in reply to my 1st post. The "Hct" numbers vary considerably between people. All that raises is the issue; Can you use those numbers in a vaccuum to base your analysis of whether an athlete is doping or not doping? It seems that you can't. You need more data.

I would suggest that human behavior when exposed to illicit activities is one of either rejection or acceptance. From an outsider's perspective, Dr. Lim's behavior since the Floyd Landis affair looks more like an extreme allergic reaction than anything else.

As to foot notes; I would call to task anyone doing the same to any other citizen, yourselves included. It is simply not right. Let him have his day in court.


cheers


w

 

[MacRoadie]

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a corner stone of our society. If you care to debate that, go right ahead. It will not change that fact.

Then next time just say that, and don't try adding some weight to your otherwise pointless argument by blowing some "it's in the Constitution" bull**** up our collective asses.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You guys are a trip...

I'm not letting you get away with smearing a person based upon assumptions and all you can do is attack me personally without addressing any of the issues I have raised.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a corner stone of our society. If you care to debate that, go right ahead. It will not change that fact.

What is evident here is that Forum behavior often results in "birds of a feather, flocking together", resulting in an unbalanced fan-boy fest. If you hate Dr. Lim then fine, that is your opinion, but don't try to hide behind a facade of intellectual piety, while pursuing your lynch mob agenda. People are free to have their opinions, yet I see no basis for the arguments presented against Dr. Lim here and some border on slander.

As has been pointed out by various people in reply to my 1st post. The "Hct" numbers vary considerably between people. All that raises is the issue; Can you use those numbers in a vaccuum to base your analysis of whether an athlete is doping or not doping? It seems that you can't. You need more data.

I would suggest that human behavior when exposed to illicit activities is one of either rejection or acceptance. From an outsider's perspective, Dr. Lim's behavior since the Floyd Landis affair looks more like an extreme allergic reaction than anything else.

As to foot notes; I would call to task anyone doing the same to any other citizen, yourselves included. It is simply not right. Let him have his day in court.


cheers


w

Ah, so "innocent until proven guilty" is not in the Constitution.

But "Freedom of Speech" is, right?

Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW - any remarks here that were 'defamation' would not be 'slander', as it is written it would be 'libelous' and of course you would have to prove that those remarks were 'libelous' in a 'Court of Law'.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Wow

It has been rumored that for the next 2 months this forum is going to be overrun with lemmings and it's getting harder and harder to waste my usual 1-2 hrs a day ****ing around in here. Oh well...

Since the last time I dropped by this particular thread....it has hit....rock...bottom.

And...
begun to dig....

 

[Race Radio]

it's getting harder and harder to waste my usual 1-2 hrs a day ****ing around in here. Oh well...
\.

That is the idea. Highjack as many threads as possible with as much useless garbage as possible.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

That is the idea. Highjack as many threads as possible with as much useless garbage as possible.

In a way it helps promote that 'family atmosphere'. Certain posters that I CAN'T STAND are suddenly regarded as welcome sights amongst the herds of mindless lemmings.

But, yeah, best just to hang out on threads about actual races going on at the moment and just avoid the angst ridden morons. Trying to go off the meds to get the bp back in line, can't be bothered by a buncha hate.

 

[131313]

I see no basis for the arguments presented against Dr. Lim here and some border on slander.

As has been pointed out by various people in reply to my 1st post. The "Hct" numbers vary considerably between people. All that raises is the issue; Can you use those numbers in a vaccuum to base your analysis of whether an athlete is doping or not doping? It seems that you can't. You need more data.

actually, you don't:

http://www.jssm.org/vol6/n2/16/v6n2-16pdf.pdf

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j568441w01004638/

http://www.iutasport.com/files/articles/How Valid is the.pdf

That's just a start. The Cliff's notes: as I said earlier, Lim is incompetent, or he's a liar. It really is that simple.

 

[BroDeal]

That is the idea. Highjack as many threads as possible with as much useless garbage as possible.

Yup. We now have BPC and Chris E trolling. Oncearunner is probably here also, and Gree appears to have created a sock puppet.

 

[this_is_edie]

Yup. We now have BPC and Chris E trolling. Oncearunner is probably here also, and Gree appears to have created a sock puppet.

they all read the same to me... boring.

or more like that annoying mosquito that keeps buzzing around your head. You try to ignore it and then you start hunting for it, wasting seconds before you can zap it. yep trolls are like mosquitoes.