Allen Lim

[poupou]

Just follow Ullrich's advices... if Lim cannot put one and one together, he must have a serious cognitive problem.

 

[gree0232]

No. The 2006 Landis tests were all performed in the morning in order to eliminate the dehydration issue. The AFLD introduced post stage blood analysis two years later in order to catch riders using plasma expanders.

This means a rider would have a 23 hour window between the 7:00 am blood tests.

So they inject things at 0800 the previous morning? During a stage? Or during the rest day? The day before stage 17 was a rest day was it?

 

[Kennf1]

Everyone Floyd has accussed say he is lying.

.

Zabriskie has not. And Hincapie hasn't either, really. Both have made statements about disappointment, hard work, looking to the future, etc. Kind of like Vaughters.

 

[Race Radio]

rambling trolling.

You do realize that a 4% increase of a 44 Hct is 45.76? A 10% increase is 48.4.

 

[Race Radio]

So they inject things at 0800 the previous morning? During a stage? Or during the rest day? The day before stage 17 was a rest day was it?

You do realize we are discussing transfusions, not EPO. The EPO microdosing was used to insure the off score did not go nuts. It cleared your system within 7 hours.

Did you even watch the race? Of course the day before stage 17 was not a rest day

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK, so you say he was in on it. Allen Lim says he was not.

Everyone Floyd has accussed say he is lying.

The people involved in the underbelly? Why are they not coming forward?

LIke I have said, I don;t really care whether Lim did or didn't. What I am sick and tired of is the rumor and innuendo (anonymous underbelly be dambed). I have already had to admit I was wrong about Floyd, my life will still go on.

But when I see Allen Lim attacked ....

When I see his work with Garmin attacked and by implication the entire Garmin team is doped ....

When I see every rider who rode with Floyd still riding accussed by Floyd ....

When I see people pointing to hematocrit and using it as proof positive of doping (which it is not, though it does raise suspicions) ....

So where does it stop? Contador rode with JB and LA? Should we expand it to include him? Levi rode with Gerolstiener and Rabobank, so those guys are doping too? Tom Boonen once rode with USPS, so the entire Quick Step team is doping now?

When do we ask teh accussers the tough questions? Like, how does a guy fresh out of graduate school get access to doping products and picked up by one of the few American riders at that level -- just to provide dope? Why if LA stores blood bags in his refrigerator have none ever been found in his refrigerator? Why is Floyd popping EPO and testing positive for steroids?

In an environment where everything is questioned, it is easy to say what should and should not be known. It may be as simple as the fact that Allen Lim trusted Floyd Landis - a decision I am sure he regrets for one reason or another.

I suggest reading what people have written as opposed to writing your own irrelavant off topic views:

Some random answers to your random questions;

No-one suggested that 'the entire Garmin team are doped'....just your strawman.
Who of the accused actually said point blank "Floyd is lying'?
Every accused rider is still riding? Ah, Valverde was riding until this week - for an 'offence' at least 4 years ago....
No-one said a rise in HCT is proof positive - but for a PhD like Lim it rightly casts doubt on his insistance of working with 'clean' athletes.


So you would like to ask the 'accussers'(sic) some tough questions? ... I would suggest that you leave that to people who know what they are talking about

 

[BikeCentric]

So they inject things at 0800 the previous morning? During a stage? Or during the rest day? The day before stage 17 was a rest day was it?

FYI in the most recent ESPN Bonnie Ford Landis article Ashenden confirmed that IV EPO microdosing has only a 6 hour test window.

Read more dude; talk less.

 

[tubularglue]

The people involved in the underbelly? Why are they not coming forward?

Who says they are not coming forward ? How do we know no one has given testimony or facts ?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

OK, so you say he was in on it. Allen Lim says he was not.

Everyone Floyd has accussed say he is lying.

The people involved in the underbelly? Why are they not coming forward?

LIke I have said, I don;t really care whether Lim did or didn't. What I am sick and tired of is the rumor and innuendo (anonymous underbelly be dambed). I have already had to admit I was wrong about Floyd, my life will still go on.

But when I see Allen Lim attacked ....

When I see his work with Garmin attacked and by implication the entire Garmin team is doped ....

When I see every rider who rode with Floyd still riding accussed by Floyd ....

When I see people pointing to hematocrit and using it as proof positive of doping (which it is not, though it does raise suspicions) ....

So where does it stop? Contador rode with JB and LA? Should we expand it to include him? Levi rode with Gerolstiener and Rabobank, so those guys are doping too? Tom Boonen once rode with USPS, so the entire Quick Step team is doping now?

When do we ask teh accussers the tough questions? Like, how does a guy fresh out of graduate school get access to doping products and picked up by one of the few American riders at that level -- just to provide dope? Why if LA stores blood bags in his refrigerator have none ever been found in his refrigerator? Why is Floyd popping EPO and testing positive for steroids?

In an environment where everything is questioned, it is easy to say what should and should not be known. It may be as simple as the fact that Allen Lim trusted Floyd Landis - a decision I am sure he regrets for one reason or another.

I am not sure you can be helped.

The line of questions above indicate such a thorough lack of anything resembling understanding of what does take place.

I apologize for engaging directly with you. Perhaps others here will put in the time and energy for your remedial education on these matters. If someone does, please open your mind and toss out your preconceptions.

I am finished with this dialogue.

 

[Hmoody]

Or maybe he just thought floyd was special. I listed to Chris Carmichael on competitors radio podcast talking about amazing 25watt jumps in power from Lance after he'd been on a team training camp in the canary islands. Perhaps Lim just chalked it down to adaptation on his amazing training programs.

Ever stop to think Armstrong was training in the Canary's to be evasive to controls? Not easy to sneak up on someone on a confined island. 25 watts after that, no problem.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So they inject things at 0800 the previous morning? During a stage? Or during the rest day? The day before stage 17 was a rest day was it?

You are correct:

I too work in the Rangers, in the 'Silent Rangers Division' (you probably never heard of us).

Yes - riders inject the previous morning - Allen Lim had access to one of our (SRD) time machines and went back every day to inject Floyd (even though he is lying).

During a stage is a little more difficult - as the time machine works on batteries - we are working on a forward solution to go back and fix the problem.

As was pointed out the rest day was not before st17 - which is why things messed up- Mr. Lim's access to the time machine has been restricted, now and for the immediate future and perhaps the past.

And before Alpe says this is off topic I did mention Allen Lim twice in this post

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, Allen Lim, it has been a long time since I saw someone, Allen Lim, get taken to the woodshed like that, Allen Lim. I mean, gree0232, Allen Lim, you really should stop, Allen Lim, because I don't think you, Allen Lim, have any more credibility to lose, Allen Lim. Just pack up, Allen Lim, and take your show on the road, Allen Lim. Maybe some place like, Allen Lim, Road Bike Review, Allen Lim, would value your input, Allen Lim?

I mentioned him 12 times, Allen Lim, 13.

 

[gree0232]

You are correct:

I too work in the Rangers, in the 'Silent Rangers Division' (you probably never heard of us).

Yes - riders inject the previous morning - Allen Lim had access to one of our (SRD) time machines and went back every day to inject Floyd (even though he is lying).

During a stage is a little more difficult - as the time machine works on batteries - we are working on a forward solution to go back and fix the problem.

As was pointed out the rest day was not before st17 - which is why things messed up- Mr. Lim's access to the time machine has been restricted, now and for the immediate future and perhaps the past.

And before Alpe says this is off topic I did mention Allen Lim twice in this post

You know for a guy that is supposedly all about logic, you certainly don't seem to like having to confront it?

But of course, when Floyd apparently injected himself with blood and EPO the previous morning - while riding a bike in the previous stage .... and it falls apart from there.

All this speculation is fine, but I find it very interesting that everyone is so convinced about what exactly takes place - but if those things take place there should be some predictive results that are testable.

I think it is very interesting that there is an awful lot of money involved in doping, but Floyd didn't mention one word about the money aspect. And that is easily traceable.

I hate to say it, but even **** Pound agrees with me on this one.

"“I think that systemically, the court [CAS] does work,” he said. “I think the record shows that the court is independent and that it doesn’t favor the doping control side of the equation, as opposed to the athletes, or vice versa.

"Pound said that once a few riders begin to open up it’s likely that more will, and that will make building cases against “protected” riders even easier. He said he’s quite comfortable seeing cases made on eyewitness testimony rather than waiting for the occasional positive doping test.

“Absolutely,” Pound said. “You can do a lot more with a confession like that and allegations and information that they can provide than you can ever do with results that come from the odd guy who pees in a bottle. In principle, I am very comfortable with it.”

In criminal trials, he said, “you can hang people even without bloodstained clothes. It’s a matter of having the kind of panels and the people on those panels who are in a position to weigh the evidence and arrive at level of proof — to the comfortable satisfaction of the panel — that CAS has adopted as the standard of proof.”

Pound added that the more rigorous “comfortable satisfaction” standard is applied to anti-doping authorities when presenting their evidence “but the athlete must only meet a ‘balance of probabilities’ standard. It really is all well calibrated."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/****_pound_interview_2010_119685#ixzz0pqrgAwoq

If we are trying to hang a guy based on a hematocrit level in isolation it'll never fly. If we are trying to hang a guy on 'what he should have known', that will never fly either.

If there are all these insiders who 'know'? That will fly. So come forward with some evidence instead of the usual insults and anonymous accussations. Please come tell us what you saw so we can move beyond the childish accussations and whispered rumors.

Most of use left whispered innuendo back in high school, and no system of jurisprudence can operate based on rumor without proof.

So, either these insiders step forward .... or they don't. In which case we get a big shoulder shrug - and perhaps some more creative writing from the Dr.

 

[BikeCentric]

LOL what "innuendo" are we talking about? Landis ADMITTED that he doped. You are the one trying to somehow prove that he's lying about breaking the rules, something he had little incentive to do.

 

[gree0232]

You do realize we are discussing transfusions, not EPO. The EPO microdosing was used to insure the off score did not go nuts. It cleared your system within 7 hours.

Did you even watch the race? Of course the day before stage 17 was not a rest day

So, the stuff I pulled with a source says it is 48 hours, now it MUST be seven hours. And it was the day before - during a stage - that he injected it so of course it was not in his system.

Except that according to the science you claim to have read, but clearly are not, steroid use can make a hematocrit level go up too.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/llewellyn/steroids-and-red-blood-cells.htm

Interesting that this is what Floyd actually tested positive for.

Hydration can also make it go up. Or down.

Stress can make it go up. Or down.

Even moderate exercise can make it go up. Or down.

Being standing or sitting can make it go up. Or down.

Some of the studies I gave you have anatural variance in hematocrit levels 5 points (or your 10-12% threshold.).

It is for these reasons why no one, in any sport, is sanctioned based solely on hematocrit numbers. Even the 50 number does not trigger a doping offense but a mandortary 2-week suspension.

Obvously this would kick in other tests and place a good deal of suspicion on a rider, but that is a standard that was not met in the Floyd Landis case.

Finally, and to clarify, if you are using EPO to set variables in blood, well, there is still EPO there to detect isn't there?

If you are drinking water to flush the EPO out (of Jack - whatever) that should actually dilute your blood and lead to a drop in hemo levels - not an increase. (It is dehydration that causes the increase).

http://velonews.competitor.com/2003...dawn-richardson-hydration-and-hematocrit_5300

And Dr. Lim should be looking solely at hematocrit levels to determine doping? When no one else does? And his wattage numbers are indicative of a normal performance for Floyd?

 

[BikeCentric]

And Dr. Lim should be looking solely at hematocrit levels to determine doping? When no one else does? And his wattage numbers are indicative of a normal performance for Floyd?

Strawman. No one ever said Lim should look "solely" at hematocrit levels. It was simply stated that hematocrit rising over the course of a 3 week stage race is suspicious. You know, being physiologically impossible and all that. LOL.

Furthermore, Lim said that his wattage on the stage was "normal" for Floyd, but he never made the wattage file public. Also suspicious, LOL.

Keep at it Gree! I haven't laughed so hard in months.

 

[gree0232]

LOL what "innuendo" are we talking about? Landis ADMITTED that he doped. You are the one trying to somehow prove that he's lying about breaking the rules, something he had little incentive to do.

Yeah, Floyd had no motive for revenge after months of apparent blackmail attempts.

The innuendo I am talking about is Floyd's accussations, and the 'insiders' who claim to have 'inside' knowledge but remain safely anonymous.

Now, if you could explain to me why one side gets to ask the accussed all kinds of difficult and probing questions, but the accusser is supposed to be treated with kid gloves and taken as gospel I would appreciate it?

This is not about Landis doping, this is about whether a guy fresh out of grad school should have known that one of America's top cyclists was doped to the kiester. I am not defending Floyd, I am defending Allen Lim.

Or perhaps you are understanding why the system cannot sanction just anyone? Why it requires proof? Why it requires more than just an anonymous post to be proof? Why it requires more than an after the fact journal?

A larger question, I am all about nailing actual dopers. Is it doing the sport any good to have every rumor, every accussation pop up in early stages without proof? And when these rumors wind up being rumors, the system fails of course. And when they are true, and we find actual evidence and sanction people, well .... why not stick to that portion?

 

[Race Radio]

-----The ramblings of a madman-----

I tried to take you seriously but it is clear that that is not possible.

 

[gree0232]

Strawman. No one ever said Lim should look "solely" at hematocrit levels. It was simply stated that hematocrit rising over the course of a 3 week stage race is suspicious. You know, being physiologically impossible and all that. LOL.

Furthermore, Lim said that his wattage on the stage was "normal" for Floyd, but he never made the wattage file public. Also suspicious, LOL.

Keep at it Gree! I haven't laughed so hard in months.

Well, that is pretty much all you have to say Lim should have known.

His hematocrit level rose, which can happen for many reasons, and there is not exactly a thick scientific file saying what you are claiming it says (just try google). Suspicious yes, proof no.

I have posted the wattage numbers as released by Allen Lim. They are also posted for you in this thread, as are LIm's public comments on those wattage numbers.

And now your case rests upon whether he made them explicitly public enough for YOU?

But this is all YOU are saying. Not the other way around.

I have been saying that a coach, a guy committed to discipline, training, and hard work actually believed in what he was selling. Was that niave? Given what Floyd is doing now, that seems fairly self evident for many reasons. Should he have known that he was doping?

No.

Thus far you have pointed to things that are far from conclusive evidence of doping.

Ergo, why should we believe Floyd? A guy that I hired for 5K a year was actually my coke mule? And, BTW, my whole team management knew about it, and they screwed me .... when they wouldn't hire me back on .... but now I am telling the truth.

I understand there is a certain segment who views Floyd's commenst as mana from heaven, but why are we now supposed to treat Floyd as angelic and everyone he has belatedly accussed as the devil? There is more afoot here than a simple guilty conscience.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

You know for a guy that is supposedly all about logic, you certainly don't seem to like having to confront it?

But of course, when Floyd apparently injected himself with blood and EPO the previous morning - while riding a bike in the previous stage .... and it falls apart from there.

All this speculation is fine, but I find it very interesting that everyone is so convinced about what exactly takes place - but if those things take place there should be some predictive results that are testable.

No, that is just not the case, and you reveal your lack of knowledge further. IT CAN'T BE TESTED. THE TESTS DON'T WORK.

Catlin and Ashenden claim Landis have given them the "missing piece" of the puzzle, and even that does not mean they can now "test" for what goes on. They can't. And, btw, IV EPO is out of the system in like 2 hours, according to my very knowledgeable source. And microdosing is another misnomer, as via IV a rider can take full load doses, not some minute portion. This makes it easier/faster to restore blood lost from extraction and "game" the off-scores.

The people who are caught either make a mistake (Hamilton, Vino, Landis) or are in-experienced, or don't have the techniques down, or don't have the knowledgeable doctors.

I think it is very interesting that there is an awful lot of money involved in doping, but Floyd didn't mention one word about the money aspect. And that is easily traceable.

Now you are just being intentionally obtuse. Not only has Floyd disclosed what he had been spending per year on his own program but it is not hard to calculate what it costs for a whole team. Andy Rihs is one of the richest men in Switzerland. BILLIONS of dollars. You think he can't find a way to hand off as much cash as could be needed to buy black-market drugs?

I am not trying to slam you, you just really have no idea. It is essentially organized crime. All this talk of trackable money... you must live a sheltered, low-exposure life, which is fine but when you apply your narrow view and experience into a problem so deep and complex, your views fail on their face.

I hate to say it, but even **** Pound agrees with me on this one.

"“I think that systemically, the court [CAS] does work,” he said. “I think the record shows that the court is independent and that it doesn’t favor the doping control side of the equation, as opposed to the athletes, or vice versa.

"Pound said that once a few riders begin to open up it’s likely that more will, and that will make building cases against “protected” riders even easier. He said he’s quite comfortable seeing cases made on eyewitness testimony rather than waiting for the occasional positive doping test.

“Absolutely,” Pound said. “You can do a lot more with a confession like that and allegations and information that they can provide than you can ever do with results that come from the odd guy who pees in a bottle. In principle, I am very comfortable with it.”

In criminal trials, he said, “you can hang people even without bloodstained clothes. It’s a matter of having the kind of panels and the people on those panels who are in a position to weigh the evidence and arrive at level of proof — to the comfortable satisfaction of the panel — that CAS has adopted as the standard of proof.”

Pound added that the more rigorous “comfortable satisfaction” standard is applied to anti-doping authorities when presenting their evidence “but the athlete must only meet a ‘balance of probabilities’ standard. It really is all well calibrated."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/****_pound_interview_2010_119685#ixzz0pqrgAwoq

If we are trying to hang a guy based on a hematocrit level in isolation it'll never fly. If we are trying to hang a guy on 'what he should have known', that will never fly either.

What are you talking about? **** Pound is a buffoon. He agrees with you?

Hanging a guy on hematocrit? what are you talking about? I don't think you know a hematocrit from a 4 corner crit.

If there are all these insiders who 'know'? That will fly. So come forward with some evidence instead of the usual insults and anonymous accussations. Please come tell us what you saw so we can move beyond the childish accussations and whispered rumors.

Most of use left whispered innuendo back in high school, and no system of jurisprudence can operate based on rumor without proof.

So, either these insiders step forward .... or they don't. In which case we get a big shoulder shrug - and perhaps some more creative writing from the Dr.

Listen, you clearly don't understand the world of professional cycling and the cultures where it is truly embraced. These people don't "step forward", they need a job, they need to feed their families. These are not "hobby jobs".

If you haven't noticed, Landis did step forward, after that world jettisoned him. They cast him out and the cost of carrying around what he knew, what previously could have been offset by the upside of having a job, was no longer worth it.

The pressure of being questioned by a fed agent will bring out the truth. Best thing that could have happened. Talk about fighting cancer, some time in the near future, the world of cycling will remove one very big malignant mass.

 

[gree0232]

I tried to take you seriously but it is clear that that is not possible.

No RR, you have attempted to make a case, and I have offered a rebuttal. Allen Lim will not be convicted based on anything you have written here.

If that cold dose of reality os too much for you, so be it - but keep you snide comments to yourself, they reflect only on you.

 

[BikeCentric]

Amusing babble

Listen, I'm done with you after this post: if all of the many investigations that have been opened because of the Landis allegations turn up nothing then I will admit that I was wrong, even if it seems the investigations get closed due to political whitewash ala Vrijman.

On the contrary, if any of these investigations turn up any corroboration of what Landis says, you will publicly admit on the forum that you were wrong, don't know anything about cycling, and have been crapping up this forum with a bunch of garbage.

Deal? Don't bother to answer, I already you know you'll be skulking away silently with your tail between your legs very shortly. LOL. I hope you keep it up in the meantime, you are a funny little man.

 

[Publicus]

Yeah, Floyd had no motive for revenge after months of apparent blackmail attempts.

Floyd didn't attempt to blackmail anyone. That's an unfounded allegation bandied about by Armstrong and Team Radio Shack (which was NOT substantiated by they emails (apparently now withdrawn)).

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Gree,

I think you need to step back, do about 10 years of reading (maybe less) and then re-engage with some bona-fide knowledge.

If you would like to defend Allen Lim, who is innocent until proven guilty, that is fine. The arguments by which you attempt to do so fail, based on your own void in the working of cycling, dope testing, cycle racing culture on the continent over the last 35 years, and probably the views built from your own life.

I don't want you to be mad, or discouraged, it is just that you so obviously lack an level of understanding that it provokes the reaction of those who do know and understand. You clearly are determined, so apply that determination into some time that will equip you with what will bring you more positive, useful discussion.

Peace.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Floyd didn't attempt to blackmail anyone. That's unfounded allegation bandied about by Armstrong and Team Radio Shack (which was NOT substantiated by they emails (apparently now withdrawn)).

What do you mean, withdrawn?