Allen Lim

[Race Radio]

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Lim is famous for measuring everything. From the starting and finishing weight of the Garmin riders daily, Armstrong's internal body heat, Lactate and Hct tests constantly.

How is it that Lim ignored that landis' Hct increased to 48.5, the highest he had ever recorded, in the THIRD WEEK OF THE TOUR? The average decrease of a non-doped rider in the third week of a GT is 12%, yet Landis increased 10%? How is it that Lim missed (Ignored) this?

The most logical answer is he assisted the increase in Hct.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think there is a little more to what Allen Lim does than rice cakes.

And yes, I realy do think that hard work and discipline coupled with targeted training can make a significant difference - even a greater difference than doping.

Stuff in between.

Again, I fully acknowledge that there are those will cheat every system, but we cannot allow a few bad apples to caste suspicion on everyone. I am confident that there are clean riders in the peloton today, and that these clean riders are winning races.

I agree, hard work and discipline etc. does produce gains, but not near as much as a good program. When you combine hard work and discipline, yada yada, with a good program you get ...........a GT contender.
What makes you think that there is anyone in the top rank that doesn't employ HW&D&TT along with their doping program?

 

[Ripper]

A bonk is a bonk is a bonk. I think his doping regimen across the board magnified his bounce back the second day. Plus, the psychological factor of having the tour won and then lost the next day, propelled him along that much more.

+1 .............

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, hard work and discipline etc. does produce gains, but not near as much as a good program. When you combine hard work and discipline, yada yada, with a good program you get ...........a GT contender.
What makes you think that there is anyone in the top rank that doesn't employ HW&D&TT along with their doping program?

Exactly! Why is it that people believe that someone like Lim would not have used his ideas to improve a doped athlete? I mean, if his ideas have merit, and I believe that some of the stuff he does is very beneficial for an endurance athlete, then adding them to the training program of an athlete that is also on a medical program would only create a better athlete.

It is as if people like gree0232 believe that dopers are lazy and are only doping to short-cut training harder. The possibility of an athlete that is fully dedicated to training, a medical program, and any other beneficial practice that will give them an edge to win seems to not register as a possibility? To think that a human is only capable of thinking "I am going to dope and that is going to be the main thing that will get me the win" will always lose to the athlete who says "I will use the same doping program, the most advanced training methods, AND these other training aids to beat the guy who only wants to dope and train." I would suggest that the competitive nature of elite athletes would suggest that they are willing to put the time into anything that will result in an athletic advantage for them. They live, eat, and breathe cycling. It is more than a full time job for anyone in the pro ranks. If you believe what has come to light by the confessions of people like Landis, Frei, and Kohl (which I do), you will note that it appears that those of us who suspect doping to be the norm have reason to feel our suspicions have been confirmed. Why would an athlete who wants to win, who also believes the base line of any cyclist is a medical program NOT employ any beneficial method to improve his performance. If you know that they are on the same thing as you, you'd better do something more than they if you want to beat them.

All of that being said, Lim being that close to Landis, and not knowing that he was doping just makes no sense. He may genuinely not like doping, and be working to help riders with techniques and practices that will help them be better cyclists, but that does not in ANY WAY preclude his knowledge of what the athletes under his care are doing in terms of a medical program. As has been pointed out ad nauseam, his blood profile was known to Lim, and it is a profile that strongly suggests the doping that he has now ADMITTED. To think that Lim had his head that far in the sand is to attribute naivete to human beings that is rarely present in any adult, much less someone so intimately involved in the world of professional cycling.

 

[gree0232]

Lim is famous for measuring everything. From the starting and finishing weight of the Garmin riders daily, Armstrong's internal body heat, Lactate and Hct tests constantly.

How is it that Lim ignored that landis' Hct increased to 48.5, the highest he had ever recorded, in the THIRD WEEK OF THE TOUR? The average decrease of a non-doped rider in the third week of a GT is 12%, yet Landis increased 10%? How is it that Lim missed (Ignored) this?

The most logical answer is he assisted the increase in Hct.

Do you have a Source?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

It is as if people like gree0232 believe that dopers are lazy and are only doping to short-cut training harder.

It's apparent that some people come to post and have little depth of knowledge about Allen Lim's credentials, even to the point where they must ask for a citation of how blood chemistry changes in a 3 week gt.

They are doing research on the fly and using what they stumble upon to continue to cobble this limpd!cked defense of Lim (and face it, kids, this has only indirect relevance to Lim to these folks, he who must not be named is who they are trying to defend).

 

[gree0232]

Exactly! Why is it that people believe that someone like Lim would not have used his ideas to improve a doped athlete? I mean, if his ideas have merit, and I believe that some of the stuff he does is very beneficial for an endurance athlete, then adding them to the training program of an athlete that is also on a medical program would only create a better athlete.

It is as if people like gree0232 believe that dopers are lazy and are only doping to short-cut training harder. The possibility of an athlete that is fully dedicated to training, a medical program, and any other beneficial practice that will give them an edge to win seems to not register as a possibility? To think that a human is only capable of thinking "I am going to dope and that is going to be the main thing that will get me the win" will always lose to the athlete who says "I will use the same doping program, the most advanced training methods, AND these other training aids to beat the guy who only wants to dope and train." I would suggest that the competitive nature of elite athletes would suggest that they are willing to put the time into anything that will result in an athletic advantage for them. They live, eat, and breathe cycling. It is more than a full time job for anyone in the pro ranks. If you believe what has come to light by the confessions of people like Landis, Frei, and Kohl (which I do), you will note that it appears that those of us who suspect doping to be the norm have reason to feel our suspicions have been confirmed. Why would an athlete who wants to win, who also believes the base line of any cyclist is a medical program NOT employ any beneficial method to improve his performance. If you know that they are on the same thing as you, you'd better do something more than they if you want to beat them.

All of that being said, Lim being that close to Landis, and not knowing that he was doping just makes no sense. He may genuinely not like doping, and be working to help riders with techniques and practices that will help them be better cyclists, but that does not in ANY WAY preclude his knowledge of what the athletes under his care are doing in terms of a medical program. As has been pointed out ad nauseam, his blood profile was known to Lim, and it is a profile that strongly suggests the doping that he has now ADMITTED. To think that Lim had his head that far in the sand is to attribute naivete to human beings that is rarely present in any adult, much less someone so intimately involved in the world of professional cycling.

Maybe you should actually read what I am writing rather than simply twisting my words into what you want them to say.

I think it is fairly self evident that some riders work harder than others, that some riders are more disciplined than others, and, yes, some riders are more talented than other riders.

Tom Boonen is never going to win the TdF no matter how hard he works or how much dope they stick into him.

I do like that NOW that Floyd comes out it is like the past four years just did not happen? I do like that many of the same points you are making ad nauseum have been previously addressed by Allen Lim - who has spoken about this stuff on more than one occassion.

Here is that day again.

"Lim gives more details. “Floyd averaged 280 watts for the entire ride, but it was 318 for the last two hours. That is while the bike is moving, so you have take into account that he has all those long descents,” he said. “On the descents he spent 13.2 percent of his time or 43 minutes coasting. If you spend that much coasting but are as good a descender as he is, you are making up time on the descents as well.

"However, if we don’t include the coasting time, he averaged 324 watts while pedalling for the stage and 364 watts over the last two hours. That gave him a total of 5,456 Kjoules of work, at an average cadence of 89 rpm. The nature of it is that everything he did today is within the realms of physiological capacity. It was the style with which he did it, the panache and the bravado and the courage [which stood out]."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/tour06/?id=/riders/2006/interviews/allenlim_landis2

"AL: I think he's just doing his job and I don't harbor anything against it. But to clear the air, I was not Floyd's supplier, I didn't see Floyd do anything unethical or wrong when I worked with him. It's funny, after Paul grilled me, I was like, "Paul, you know my situation coming out of grad school, going to work with Floyd?"

And he's like, "No."

A lot of doping is about economics, and that year that I went to work with Floyd, my dad had just passed away. I was in grad school, just finished, bitter, tired, just needed a break. I was about to move back in with my mom, and just spend some time to reassess, when Floyd offered me this opportunity to go to Europe with him. And that first year, he only paid me, like, 7000 dollars to do all that work with him. And I basically just went and hung out in Europe and had this great experience.

The same was true in 2006, I think I was paid a total of 5 grand or something, working for Floyd. The majority of my salary was coming out of coaching the TIAA-CREF development team. So, in terms of a conspiracy, me being his supplier, for the people who know me well and know my situation there, it's all kind of funny. Kimmage or anyone else who saw me in that light, it's really surprising. Sorta funny, but perhaps understandable, given how intimate I was with his data and his information. To that point too, there was a whole network of individuals helping Floyd out that year. Robbie Ventura was doing coaching as well for Floyd, I was Floyd's power analysis guy, physiologist, that was the role I played. There was certainly a whole team, staff, and so I'm both flattered and embarrassed that I get singled out for either his success or his demise."

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-garmins-guru

Again, we have heard Floyd's accussation before from everyone but Floyd and they have been rebutted. The continuing accussation seems to rest entirely on evryone being doped and that the failure to acknowledge this is the real problem.

Nice to know that Jessie the Body escaped implication this time around

 

[gree0232]

It's apparent that some people come to post and have little depth of knowledge about Allen Lim's credentials, even to the point where they must ask for a citation of how blood chemistry changes in a 3 week gt.

They are doing research on the fly and using what they stumble upon to continue to cobble this limpd!cked defense of Lim (and face it, kids, this has only indirect relevance to Lim to these folks, he who must not be named is who they are trying to defend).

Nice to see yoyu back up your claims even once with a source. Now, please keep the comments on the subject and not aimed at the posters who disagree with you.

I would like to see the proof rather than just the accussation that Floyd's numbers changed that radically. If that were true, it should have come out in Floyd's arbitration hearing and pretty much blown him to crap. It didn't.

If something is that obvious, I would like to see where it is coming from.

So, instead of assuming that ONLY YOU know everything, why not try offering something relevant to the discussion and stop just bashing everyone that dares question you.

In case you haven't figured it out, this is a discussion forum.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Tom Boonen is never going to win the TdF no matter how hard he works or how much dope they stick into him. :

If Tom Boonen was riding as well as he does on just cortisone, testosterone and a "basic" program, and then went to Ferrari and began the best blood doping program available to humanity, and GT riders for the Tour decided not to risk taking too much EPO beforehand or bringing it with them to the Tour and Boonen trained specifically for a GT under Ferrari's supervision I reckon he would stand a damn good chance, actually, if its what he wanted.

Of course he'd have to up his cadence, lose some weight (or just say he did) and spend months reconoittring the tour climbs, because we all know that he who knows the gradients and bends can ride up the mountains the fastest.

He'd also need some PR story about overcoming a personal adversity that would make him more focussed and motivated, and a hero to the deluded and the unwell.

It's a perfect storm I'll give you that....but it's not unfathomable.

 

[Ripper]

If Tom Boonen was riding as well as he does on just cortisone, testosterone and a "basic" program, and then went to Ferrari and began the best blood doping program available to humanity, and GT riders for the Tour decided not to risk taking too much EPO beforehand or bringing it with them to the Tour and Boonen trained specifically for a GT under Ferrari's supervision I reckon he would stand a damn good chance, actually, if its what he wanted.

Of course he'd have to up his cadence, lose some weight (or just say he did) and spend months reconoittring the tour climbs, because we all know that he who knows the gradients and bends can ride up the mountains the fastest.

He'd also need some PR story about overcoming a personal adversity that would make him more focussed and motivated, and a hero to the deluded and the unwell.

It's a perfect storm I'll give you that....but it's not unfathomable.

Annnnnd, some time ago Boonen commented about his ability to contend for the overall in a GT (somehow it came up). He noted how he would need to "change his body" or something to that effect to be competitive, so even he gives some credence to the ability to switch focuses to a GT.

 

[Race Radio]

Do you have a Source?

A source for what?

During the Landis trial Floyd was repeatedly asked for copies of his blood values. He lied and said he did not have them. It was not until after the trial had ended that Floyd was forced to release his values when the UCI proved he was lying. It was clear why he lied, his Hct and Hemoglobin both jumped in the last week of the Tour.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20070708-9999-lz1s8landis.html

Blood values during GT's have been measured for decades, even prior to the introduction of EPO and the 50% limit. Of course Landis's values raised questions at the time. Dr. Micheal Ashenden said

it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely......I would definitely recommend to anti-doping authorities that an athlete presenting these values should be target-tested for blood doping.”

Ashenden's position is not surprising as Dr. Bo Belhage, Dr. Jakob Mørkeberg, and Dr. Rasmus Damsgaard have all written peer reviewed papers on the drop of Hct during the third week of a GT.

After 10 of their riders tested positive the UCI told Phonak that they would be taking their license from them. In order to continue Phonak promised they would start internal testing. They bought the same machine as the UCI uses and set an even lower limit for HCT then the UCI. They announced in a press release that any rider testing over 48% would be suspended.

Floyd went over this level in the 3rd week of the Tour de France with his highest recorded Hct. Why is it that Lim, Och, and the rest of the Phonak management suspend him? We now know it was because they were willing enablers of his doping.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe you should actually read what I am writing rather than simply twisting my words into what you want them to say.

I think it is fairly self evident that some riders work harder than others, that some riders are more disciplined than others, and, yes, some riders are more talented than other riders.

Tom Boonen is never going to win the TdF no matter how hard he works or how much dope they stick into him.

I do like that NOW that Floyd comes out it is like the past four years just did not happen? I do like that many of the same points you are making ad nauseum have been previously addressed by Allen Lim - who has spoken about this stuff on more than one occassion.

Here is that day again.

"Lim gives more details. “Floyd averaged 280 watts for the entire ride, but it was 318 for the last two hours. That is while the bike is moving, so you have take into account that he has all those long descents,” he said. “On the descents he spent 13.2 percent of his time or 43 minutes coasting. If you spend that much coasting but are as good a descender as he is, you are making up time on the descents as well.

"However, if we don’t include the coasting time, he averaged 324 watts while pedalling for the stage and 364 watts over the last two hours. That gave him a total of 5,456 Kjoules of work, at an average cadence of 89 rpm. The nature of it is that everything he did today is within the realms of physiological capacity. It was the style with which he did it, the panache and the bravado and the courage [which stood out]."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/tour06/?id=/riders/2006/interviews/allenlim_landis2

"AL: I think he's just doing his job and I don't harbor anything against it. But to clear the air, I was not Floyd's supplier, I didn't see Floyd do anything unethical or wrong when I worked with him. It's funny, after Paul grilled me, I was like, "Paul, you know my situation coming out of grad school, going to work with Floyd?"

And he's like, "No."

A lot of doping is about economics, and that year that I went to work with Floyd, my dad had just passed away. I was in grad school, just finished, bitter, tired, just needed a break. I was about to move back in with my mom, and just spend some time to reassess, when Floyd offered me this opportunity to go to Europe with him. And that first year, he only paid me, like, 7000 dollars to do all that work with him. And I basically just went and hung out in Europe and had this great experience.

The same was true in 2006, I think I was paid a total of 5 grand or something, working for Floyd. The majority of my salary was coming out of coaching the TIAA-CREF development team. So, in terms of a conspiracy, me being his supplier, for the people who know me well and know my situation there, it's all kind of funny. Kimmage or anyone else who saw me in that light, it's really surprising. Sorta funny, but perhaps understandable, given how intimate I was with his data and his information. To that point too, there was a whole network of individuals helping Floyd out that year. Robbie Ventura was doing coaching as well for Floyd, I was Floyd's power analysis guy, physiologist, that was the role I played. There was certainly a whole team, staff, and so I'm both flattered and embarrassed that I get singled out for either his success or his demise."

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-garmins-guru

Again, we have heard Floyd's accussation before from everyone but Floyd and they have been rebutted. The continuing accussation seems to rest entirely on evryone being doped and that the failure to acknowledge this is the real problem.

Nice to know that Jessie the Body escaped implication this time around

They have been rebutted in the MEDIA. Not in a court, and those of us who believe him think that the Federal investigation will prove them to be true.

Contrary to cop TV shows, most people deny allegations against them until the evidence is so weighted against them that they have to cut a deal. You really expect that he would jeaproize everything in his life by admitting something before now?

The fact is that anyone very closely involved with Floyd would have known about his doping because it would be almost impossible for him to hide it. And unless he is lying about his personal doping regimin (seems ludicrious, huh?), Lim would have known. Agian, you like denial until proven in a court. That is fine. You are entitled to jake your PERSONAL judgements with regard to any criteria you want. I don't have to allow the same criteria, and contrary to your assertion, there is nothing any more or less rational or ethical about that. My life experience is that where there is smoke, there is fire. I am intimately familiar with doping of a different sort, and it is little surprise that the actions and attitudes of the people involved with either type are almost identical.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Here are Landis blood values 2005/2006:

 

[Anonymous]

Here are Landis blood values 2005/2006:

Hey gree0232, care to admit again that you didn't know what you were talking about? I mean, it happens so often that I would think sooner or later you will show some humility and then maybe we will start to take what you have to say into account. Its not that your assertions about Lim are completely out of the realm of possibility, it is that the errors you have made give little credence to your points.

Lim would have known these results, and anyone even remotely knowledgeable about human physiology in relation to endurance sports would question them.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I would love to see those records for Lance, Hincapie, VdV, Tyler et al for the 99-05 period....if they still exist.

 

[mektronic]

Somewhere on the internet is Armstrong's Hct from either 2002, 2003 or 2004, in an article which also talks about Rasmussen, from memory. I have spent several evenings trying to find the page again, I think it was a smaller American newspaper/webpaper (may have had Rasmussen's alongside, but definitely had Armstrong's). No idea how they got it, and Hct increased over the course of the Tour.

M

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Somewhere on the internet is Armstrong's Hct from either 2002, 2003 or 2004, in an article which also talks about Rasmussen, from memory. I have spent several evenings trying to find the page again, I think it was a smaller American newspaper/webpaper (may have had Rasmussen's alongside, but definitely had Armstrong's). No idea how they got it, and Hct increased over the course of the Tour.

M

It's stating the obvious to say that anyone who raced with a 'crit of +/-49 (that stayed same or increased during stage races) prior to the EPO test / Biopassport being developed in the late 90's early 00's who now races at +/-43 (and decreases during stage races) was more than likely a heavy user of EPO.

 

[Race Radio]

Armstrong claims that his Hct varies from 38.5 to 48.5.

Only one way to do that.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Armstrong claims that his Hct varies from 38.5 to 48.5.

Only one way to do that.

what do you think it was during the climb to Sestrieres in 1999?

 

[luckyboy]

Armstrong claims that his Hct varies from 38.5 to 48.5.

Only one way to do that.

Maybe it was a combination of altitude training, blood loss and diarrhea

 

[Race Radio]

Maybe it was a combination of altitude training, blood loss and diarrhea

And a couple rest day blood bags and shots of EPO

 

[oldschoolnik]

HCT of Tour Riders: Slightly off topic but shows Lim woudf know the deal

Link (in French)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=AM-41f2ZlcEC&pg=PA409&lpg=PA409#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are some interesting comparisons of LA blood values to that of other riders HCT in 1999 (LA values were from 2009) from this link as well:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/professional-cycling/472023-hematocrit-most-famous-riders-2.html

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Armstrong claims that his Hct varies from 38.5 to 48.5.

Only one way to do that.

While I know that EPO "does" cause this type of fluctuation, it can also vary widely due to hydration/dehydration levels, sitting vs lying when the blood is drawn, sodium levels, among a few others, like tents/altitude.

There is a big margin of error (5% +/-) on the hct test that is given for screening as well. If Phonak did not sit FL when his hct went over 48, that is a reasonable excuse for letting him continue to ride.

All of these reasons are what makes it so ridiculous for the testing authorities to use or really do anything with hct as a measure, unless you clearly score 50+. There is no excuse for that, as a small amount of saline IV can drive it down to "safe" level.

So, going by hct alone is a pointless argument, as combined factors can/do impact hct severely. Even the "off-score" is routinely beaten and gamed.

All of that said, blood vector doping and infusion of packed RBC, if managed properly, will not cause a pop on the EPO test or the Bio-Passport.

 

[Race Radio]

There is a big margin of error (5% +/-) on the hct test that is given for screening as well.

No, there is not. The machines that the UCI and WADA use are calibrated prior to each batch with a sample from the manufacture. The early machines had a possible variance of .3% with the more recent machines being even more accurate.

No way Armstrong, or any other rider, wins the Tour when he is so dehydrated that his Hct raises 10 points.

I agree that it is easy to get around the passport and the 50% limit

 

[Colm.Murphy]

No, there is not. The machines that the UCI and WADA use are calibrated prior to each batch with a sample from the manufacture. The early machines had a possible variance of .3% with the more recent machines being even more accurate.

No way Armstrong, or any other rider, wins the Tour when he is so dehydrated that his Hct raises 10 points.

I agree that it is easy to get around the passport and the 50% limit

I have first hand info that the machines that CSC/Saxo uses have a +/- 5% measurement error range. I will get the brand and model.

Within a lab setting, one would expect a very low moe range, as you state. I am speaking about the field screening, done by teams and by the UCI.

I make no claim that hydration ALONE can cause a 10 point swing. Toss in some combined factors which are not uncommon to exist, like low sodium levels, slight anemia (from too much EPO and/or recent infusion and/or extreme training), time at altitude and the body position when the sample is taken, then you can easily see 7-10 point swings.

This is part of why it is so easy to "game".