Allen Lim

[gree0232]

It's already been said. Why do guys like YOU keep responding to him? He is NOT the problem. YOU are. Anyone who gives a frying flig knows what this clown is doing, yet you compulsively respond to him as if defeating him intellectually is some sort of achievemnt.

Said it before, I'll say it again, people need a short term ban for responding to trolls. Trolls quickly die of starvation if they can't find some idiot to engage them. And yet you can't figure out that your engagement derails what little is going on in this thread. Try this out for a day: stfu.

Interesting, it would seem that the discussion tends to focus bring out focus that this is not just a one sided issue. Why is that a small coterie of posters think that anyone who disagrees with them is automatically both, one, uninformed, two, a troll?

The mods have spoken publically about just this issue, stay on topic, and if you are so convinced that you are right, explain it. Calling someone a troll does not make a case and the constant harassment of a few posters is quite frankly triesome.

Allen Lim's public comments are there, they were entered into the public record, and they have been used as part of Landis's anti-doping defense for years.

If anyone is shocked by Landis's accussations, it is probably Allen Lim. If he believes in what he is selling (which is not much of an assumption), and sees the training and the data improve after the training - sometimes we see what we want.

With hindsight? Might he go back and revisit the data given Landis's claims? Probably. Might he look for similar patterns in riders who similarly improve? Probably.

In response though, I see a lot of 'inside' information that supposedly contradicts this. My question remains the same: If you have this information, why are you not coming forward?

I have said this at least a dozen times. I do not care whether Floyd et al. doped. I do care whether there is enough evidence to convict them, as I am sick and tired of anonymous innuendo, rumor, and suspicion ripping the sport apart.

Unless we can produce some evidence that Allen Lim actually facilitated Landis's doping (as Landis claims he did - with full knowledge of the now BMC management) then there is nothing on Lim.

And for thise who demand accountability in riders and then try and shout down those who disagree with them, how do you think accountability happens? The jealous (but too often anonymous) rumors are every bit as damaging to the sport as the actual dopers.

 

[gree0232]

The Wiki article you present is called a List of Doping Cases in Cycling.

You should read it as the vast majority named were not caught by "the system" - most confessed after their careers ended or were caught by Police action.

It is not a "perception", but a reality that the "system' fails- thank you for proving 'our' case.

As should you.

Here is JUST 2008.

Doping cases
Igor Astarloa had his contract terminated in May 2008 by Team Milram following disclosures that he had shown irregular blood values.[314]

Manuel Beltrán tested positive for EPO after the first stage of the Tour de France. The news broke on 11 July 2008. Blood abnormalities before the tour start had led French anti-doping agency AFLD to target the rider. Beltrán's team Liquigas withdrew him from the tour with immediate effect. French police questioned Beltrán over possible offences, and searched his hotel room. The B-Sample has not yet been tested.[315]

Tom Boonen tested positive for cocaine in a test on 26 May 2008. Since this was outside competition he does not face sanctions by the UCI or WADA but was barred from the 2008 Tour de France.[316][317]

Paolo Bossoni tested positive for EPO after placing sixth at the Italian National Road Race Championships.[318]

Giovanni Carini tested positive for EPO after winning the Elite without contract category at the Italian Championships in Boltiere.[318]

Jimmy Casper of France tested positive for corticosteroid, an asthma drug that is banned unless the user has a medical exemption for its use, during the 2008 Tour de France by the Agence Française de Lutte contre le Dopage. He failed to renew this exemption.[319] He was fully exonerated by the French cycling federation's disciplinary commission and rejoined his Agritubel team after he proved that the theraputic use exemption (TUE) which he had carried for 12 years had expired 1 month before the Tour de France.[320]

Moisés Dueñas was withdrawn from the Barloworld team before the 11th stage of the Tour de France on 16 July. The official statement from ASO stated that he had tested positive for EPO at the end of the time trial fourth stage.[321] Barloworld, two days later, announced that they were withdrawing from sponsorship after this year's Tour de France.[322]

Danilo Di Luca's appeal was rejected by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). He had sought to reverse a three-month ban he served for his involvement in the Oil for Drugs doping case. The CAS also rejected the appeal by the Italian National Olympic Committee (CONI), which sought to increase the ban to two years.[323]

Dmitry Fofonov tested positive for banned stimulant heptaminol after the 18th stage of the 2008 Tour de France. Fofonov had completed the race in nineteenth place, and was fired by Crédit Agricole after it was made aware of the positive test.[324]

Vladimir Gusev was fired from Astana Team as a result of irregular values detected by its internal anti-doping program run by Doctor Rasmus Damsgaard.[325] However, on June 15, 2009 the Court of Arbitration for Sport decided in Gusev's favor, declared that Astana was wrong in the firing, and ordered that they compensate Gusev for back-pay, legal costs, and damages.[326]

Floyd Landis lost his final appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. It was concluded from the evidence presented that the presence of exogenous testosterone or its precursors or metabolites in Floyd Landis' sample proved that he violated the anti-doping rules of the UCI. Landis will serve a full two-year suspension that is back-dated to 30 January 2007. Additionally, Landis was ordered to pay $100,000 in costs to the USADA.[327]

Eddy Mazzoleni was handed a two-year ban in April 2008 by the Italian Cycling Federation (FCI) for his involvement in the Oil for Drugs affair. The FCI also banned 28 year-old former Ceramica Flaminia rider Domenico Quagliariello for life for his involvement in the same affair.[328]

Maria Moreno of Spain tested positive for EPO at the Beijing Olympics on 31 July. She left China on the day of the test, before the results were published, and reports in Spain claimed an 'anxiety attack'. IOC communications director Giselle Davies said: "She was tested in the Village and she had already left China that evening before having had the result. The test has come back positive for EPO. The disciplinary commission has ruled that she should be excluded from the Games and have her accreditation withdrawn." The IOC passed the case to the UCI for follow up.[329]

Alessandro Petacchi was suspended for one year by The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) for having tested positive for an asthma medication during the 2007 Giro d'Italia.[330]

Leonardo Piepoli, winner of stage 10 of the 2008 Tour de France, was sacked by his team for "violation of the team's ethics code" the following day, though no positive test had been reported by that date.[331] He confessed to his team manager that he had used the same MIRCERA, a new 'third generation' type of EPO, as team-mate Riccardo Riccò.[332] On 7 October it was reported that Piepoli had tested positive for Continuous Erythropoiesis Receptor Activator on 4 July and 15 July.[333]

The Portuguese cycling team LA-MSS had its headquarters searched by police where doping products such as doping substances, medications, equipment to conduct blood transfusions and instruments for clinical use were found.[334] In June 2008, the Portuguese Cycling Federation (UVP/FCP) suspended nine members of the team temporarily pending the outcome of the investigation; five of which were riders and four were team staff.[335]


Maximiliano Richeze tested positive for a steroid named stanazol before the start of the 2008 Giro d'Italia, which resulted in his expulsion from the race, but later the case was dismissed by the Argentinian federation since it was proved Richeze was not to blame.[341]

Emanuele Sella was found to test positive for CERA, the third generation EPO, in out of competition control testing, performed 23 July 2008. UCI President Pat McQuaid noted that Sella had been targeted based on his actions in and out of racing. Sella won the climber's maglia verde at the 2008 Giro d'Italia and also won three stages.[342]


In May 2008 the UCI revealed that 23 riders were under suspicion of doping following the first phase of blood tests conducted under the new biological passport established at the start of the season.[345] A biological passport is an individual, electronic record for each rider, in which the results of all doping tests over a period of time are collated. Doping violations can be detected by noting variances from an athlete's established levels outside permissible limits, rather than testing for and identifying illegal substances.[346]

Now, how many of those are past admissions? And if you look at the full list, you can clearly see steady improvement in the system.

And what might your solution be? Fire everyone? Accuse everyone?

 

[BikeCentric]

It is a new era everyone! The sport is now clean. It's time to look forward and not in the rear view mirror; for the benefit of everyone who makes money off of this sport we must do our part and never question anything. Things are getting better because the team owners who exploit the riders tell us so. Do your part for this sport and simply sit back and enjoy the systematic degradation of humanity for profit. Better yet, dig down into your pockets and give your money to everyone who profits from this wonderfull "sport." The future is now!

 

[alberto.legstrong]

It is a new era everyone! The sport is now clean. It's time to look forward and not in the rear view mirror; for the benefit of everyone who makes money off of this sport we must do our part and never question anything. Things are getting better because the team owners who exploit the riders tell us so. Do your part for this sport and simply sit back and enjoy the systematic degradation of humanity for profit. Better yet, dig down into your pockets and give your money to everyone who profits from this wonderfull "sport." The future is now!

You're learning!! Now go have a fabulous day!

 

[BikeCentric]

You're learning!! Now go have a fabulous day!

So help me Gawd I cannot STFU but I understand your point.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As should you.

Here is JUST 2008.

Doping cases
<snipped fro brevity>

Now, how many of those are past admissions? And if you look at the full list, you can clearly see steady improvement in the system.

And what might your solution be? Fire everyone? Accuse everyone?

Again, did you read what you posted?

Only 5 of the 19 named riders were caught by UCI controls - most were again caught through Police intervention or the AFLD.

As for past admissions -you posted 2008, would you like me to point out why riders who are getting away with PED use do not admit to PED use while they are still riding?

 

[BikeCentric]

Again, did you read what you posted?

Only 5 of the 19 named riders were caught by UCI controls - most were again caught through Police intervention or the AFLD.

As for past admissions -you posted 2008, would you like me to point out why riders who are getting away with PED use do not admit to PED use while they are still riding?

Doctor Maserati, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are hurting the sport of cycling by stating out loud this obvious fact that is self-evident to anyone with a 5th-grade level of basic reading comprehension. We must all be quiet and pretend that everything is fine for the good of the sport.

Why do you hate cycling Doctor Maserati? You truly must be jealous of the people who are making lots of money by putting the health and future of young riders at risk. It is every mans God-given right to make as much money as he wants by exploiting those in a weaker economic position than he. Truly you must be an evil Communist as well if you do not believe this.

So in short my good Doctor, for daring to speak out as you have you are quite clearly a jealous bitter hater pinko Commie who wants to destroy cycling. I feel sorry for you. Also, you are not worth the chair you are sitting on. And you love cancer!

 

[Digger]

Doctor Maserati, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are hurting the sport of cycling by stating out loud this obvious fact that is self-evident to anyone with a 5th-grade level of basic reading comprehension. We must all be quiet and pretend that everything is fine for the good of the sport.

Why do you hate cycling Doctor Maserati? You truly must be jealous of the people who are making lots of money by putting the health and future of young riders at risk. It is every mans God-given right to make as much money as he wants by exploiting those in a weaker economic position than he. Truly you must be an evil Communist as well if you do not believe this.

So in short my good Doctor, for daring to speak out as you have you are quite clearly a jealous bitter hater pinko Commie who wants to destroy cycling. I feel sorry for you. Also, you are not worth the chair you are sitting on. And you love cancer!

To me, it seems clear that he wants terrorism to win, because he also clearly loves Iraq.

 

[Anonymous]

To me, it seems clear that he wants terrorism to win, because he also clearly loves Iraq.

And Rangers. And Gendarmes.

 

[dbrower]

Correct me if I am wrong, but up to now you have argued that the system is corrupt, so the dopers that have been caught aren't really guilty they are victims of the system.

If you look at all the dopers that have been caught (either by the anti-doping agencies or police action) over the past few years, the list is long and includes a lot of big names. I agree that not enough are caught, but lots are. Is the system working? It certainly isn't perfect but then what "system" is.

I'm saying the current system is (a) not effective; (b) effectively unjust, "like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500"; (c) pretends to be something it isn't.

As others have noted, the most effective enforcement has not come from UCI controls, but from other controls and law enforcement activity.

In terms of what can be done at the sporting level, I'm in favor of team rather than individual sanctions, to create peer pressure. I'm in favor of shorter sanctions and/or sporting (time/place) penalties based on an admission of "best effort and fallibility" rather than long punishments based on faux-omniscience I'd be in favor of an alternate business structure that leveled the differences in reward between individuals and teams, to tilt the risk/reward calculation. I'd consider legalizing and supervising some things on the oxygen vector to truncate that avenue of approach, shown to be the most effective.

I think it would be interesting to consider power limits, as done in motor sports, to constrain things. For example, measure everybody's power, and have kj/kg limits for riders and teams -- if exceeded, add sporting (time/place) penalties.

However, the very first thing I'd do is dismantle the UCI, and create a new governance and sanctioning body. The last thing I'd want to do is witch-hunt riders as individuals.

-dB

 

[gree0232]

Again, did you read what you posted?

Only 5 of the 19 named riders were caught by UCI controls - most were again caught through Police intervention or the AFLD.

As for past admissions -you posted 2008, would you like me to point out why riders who are getting away with PED use do not admit to PED use while they are still riding?

You are assuming that the UCI is the only part of the 'system'. And that is not what I am saying.

You said, "the majority of the cases deal with past addmissions," and that is clearly not the case.

Now you are claiming that only UCI controls are the 'system'? Why?

Allright, now lets look at PED use that is supposedly rampant. If 'all' cyclists are supposed using the Floyd method then we should be able to find something.

You think several hundred cyclists all hiding their blood bags in a refrigerator might be somewhat obvious? Just maybe the clods in the anti-doping establishment just may have checked the refrigerator from time to time?

Do you think moving several hundred vials of EPO for micro-dosing just may be something that you can track? Might their be a distribution system that can be tracked and identified? MIght there be other agencies involved in policing these criminal actvities?

And finally, if you prdict the widespread use of PED's, there those predictive analysis should result in something to check.

And yet what do we rely on? "Why would current cyclist admit to PED use?" Are you saying that being a rider means 1) you are doping 2) you have nor moral code?

And why then is it OK to anonymously implicate others and demand they come forward when these insiders will not?

It is called suspicion without proof. And trying to focus the entire system only on the UCI testing methods is to miss the obvious.

 

[gree0232]

To me, it seems clear that he wants terrorism to win, because he also clearly loves Iraq.

Yep, Allen Lim is clearly supporting doping because I support terrorism

I think we have clearly identified the trolls on this forum.

 

[Black-Balled]

I am telling you, if he knew that ice-stuffed pantyhose were just a placebo...gawdammit, I am gonna be pizissed!

 

[Anonymous]

I'm saying the current system is (a) not effective; (b) effectively unjust, "like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500"; (c) pretends to be something it isn't.

As others have noted, the most effective enforcement has not come from UCI controls, but from other controls and law enforcement activity.

In terms of what can be done at the sporting level, I'm in favor of team rather than individual sanctions, to create peer pressure. I'm in favor of shorter sanctions and/or sporting (time/place) penalties based on an admission of "best effort and fallibility" rather than long punishments based on faux-omniscience I'd be in favor of an alternate business structure that leveled the differences in reward between individuals and teams, to tilt the risk/reward calculation. I'd consider legalizing and supervising some things on the oxygen vector to truncate that avenue of approach, shown to be the most effective.

I think it would be interesting to consider power limits, as done in motor sports, to constrain things. For example, measure everybody's power, and have kj/kg limits for riders and teams -- if exceeded, add sporting (time/place) penalties.

However, the very first thing I'd do is dismantle the UCI, and create a new governance and sanctioning body. The last thing I'd want to do is witch-hunt riders as individuals.

-dB

More along the lines of the NCAA handing out punishment to the schools where the infractions took place? Good idea. The only problem I see is that it does not appear to have greatly reduced the amount of recruiting monkey business in NCAA D1 sports. One only need look at Kentucky and the cancer they hired as a coach to see that.

I do believe it would be a more just system, but I am not of the belief that it would do anything but change the rules that they have to break. The target moves, and so does the system of cheating.

The idea of a plea-bargain type system centered around the rider turning over the names of the people involved in their doping is also a good step IMO. Those who believe that they dope alone overlook the fact that someone teaches them how to do it, and those people were taught, etc. It is an organized crime model, and I believe that the best we can honestly hope for is that the pressure will continue and people will keep getting caught. Extending the punishment to the team is the next logical step. However, until people begin to vote with their pocketbook, and do things like boycott races and sponsors involved with teams (along with writing letters, etc.) the money is too good for the system to cease.

It is sometimes a sad world in which we live.

 

[BikeCentric]

More along the lines of the NCAA handing out punishment to the schools where the infractions took place? Good idea. The only problem I see is that it does not appear to have greatly reduced the amount of recruiting monkey business in NCAA D1 sports. One only need look at Kentucky and the cancer they hired as a coach to see that.

I do believe it would be a more just system, but I am not of the belief that it would do anything but change the rules that they have to break. The target moves, and so does the system of cheating.

The idea of a plea-bargain type system centered around the rider turning over the names of the people involved in their doping is also a good step IMO. Those who believe that they dope alone overlook the fact that someone teaches them how to do it, and those people were taught, etc. It is an organized crime model, and I believe that the best we can honestly hope for is that the pressure will continue and people will keep getting caught. Extending the punishment to the team is the next logical step. However, until people begin to vote with their pocketbook, and do things like boycott races and sponsors involved with teams (along with writing letters, etc.) the money is too good for the system to cease.

It is sometimes a sad world in which we live.

I agree with you two on the team sanctioning idea. Kick the entire team out of the race where a sanction occurs and invalidate all results from all racers in that event. Reduce the 2-year suspension for individual riders to the aforementioned team punishment.

This would have a large negative impact on sponsors and would created top-down pressure from sponsors to minimize monkey business and would also create very effective internal team peer-pressure among the riders to self police.

I was on an NCAA college sports team that was facing the threat of NCAA sanction one year due to some idiot Freshman getting wasted drunk and getting in trouble with campus police. I can tell you that the internal team self policing in that situation was VERY effective. We had our senior team captains openly telling the freshman "if I lose my Senior year of eligability due to one of you idiots getting arrested for drinking I will put you in the hospital," etc. etc. Peer pressure to be on ones best behaviour and not let down the team in such a situation is very very effective.

 

[BikeCentric]

blah blah blah blah blah blah

I actually 100% agree with you. You have convinced me. When any of us talk about doping it hurts the sport, so we should all stop posting. This includes you of course. I suspect this means we've heard the last of you. Bye.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

You are assuming that the UCI is the only part of the 'system'. And that is not what I am saying.

You said, "the majority of the cases deal with past addmissions," and that is clearly not the case.

Now you are claiming that only UCI controls are the 'system'? Why?

Allright, now lets look at PED use that is supposedly rampant. If 'all' cyclists are supposed using the Floyd method then we should be able to find something.

You think several hundred cyclists all hiding their blood bags in a refrigerator might be somewhat obvious? Just maybe the clods in the anti-doping establishment just may have checked the refrigerator from time to time?

Do you think moving several hundred vials of EPO for micro-dosing just may be something that you can track? Might their be a distribution system that can be tracked and identified? MIght there be other agencies involved in policing these criminal actvities?

And finally, if you prdict the widespread use of PED's, there those predictive analysis should result in something to check.

And yet what do we rely on? "Why would current cyclist admit to PED use?" Are you saying that being a rider means 1) you are doping 2) you have nor moral code?

And why then is it OK to anonymously implicate others and demand they come forward when these insiders will not?

It is called suspicion without proof. And trying to focus the entire system only on the UCI testing methods is to miss the obvious.

The UCI is the "system" as they, for better or worse, are first to widely implement the "Bio-Passort" program. As such, the collection of data points, review of data and use of data in charging a doping infraction, would seem to me to be a "system", and one that is elevated above what WADA could implement.

The UCI directs their own testing, sending DCO's out against the ADA/WADA whereabouts system. Tests are submitted to WADA labs, so, as a matter of a "system" they are the sport and they are the innovators of the detection method which transcends the WADA world.

To the extent that "all" cyclists employ the methods of Landis is a stretch but the information revealed by Landis does indicate the ease with which a determined and enabled athlete can exploit the testing "system". As it is, even Ashenden proclaims Landis as delivering the missing pieces and states that while useful, it will not necessarily mean more cheating athletes will be caught.

I think you oversimplify by suggesting a DCO should look in the fridge, as that is outside the scope of what they may do (or ask) or observe (what is in plain view). And to the point you make about hundreds of athletes hiding blood bags, let's not gloss past the Puerto, Humanplasma, or Friedberg clinic scandals. These were highly organized programs where literally hundreds of bags of blood had been handled and stored.

Regarding your take on EPO, tracking and distribution, I think you reveal your lack of knowledge. Significant amounts of rEPO, anabolics, HGH and other enhancers come from eastern Europe, Russia and China. There are severe corruption issues in these places, which begs an even biggest problem. So, you simplified view is just that: simplified. That pharmacies and medical shipping centers have been jacked, and large qty's of these medicines are now on the black market should be an indicator of demand. As such, the police are clearly concerned about these issues but are up against organized crime.

Keep in mind, these are highly engineered medicines, manufactured under strict environments and controls, given their intended use. This is not bathtub Gin or home cooked amphetamines.

Overall, I think your dialogue is interesting but you simply lack the knowledge about how doping works in professional sports. It is not about being predictive or accusing without proof. It is about the very small step, after years and years of commitment to a sport, that is taken to dope. Do you take a small amount of medicines, which generally won't hurt you but will mean you can be competitive enough to keep your job, or do you grip your moral compass and walk away? If you think there is a third option, you are quite wrong. For those very very few who have the natural talent and ability to perform at a professional level in cycling completely devoid of doping, they too must think about what won't be able to do against the riders who dope.

Doping is everywhere. From local amateur cyclist, to mid-level Pro's (the Joe Papp's) all the way up to the top shelf. It is endemic. For a fellow like Lim, for as smart, observant, and informed as he is, to claim he simply had no knowledge of what was going on with an athlete whose care and performance he is charged with tending to, I find purely impossible. Also, I know it is impossible for other reasons, suffice to say.

I make no issue with whether he "comes forward", though I think anyone who has watched that video will agree that when his atty informs him of the risks of lying to US Federal agents, or what an obstruction charge carries, he will weigh out what he stands to gain by collaborating Landis' information and negotiating his own probation (or what have you).

 

[Anonymous]

I actually 100% agree with you. You have convinced me. When any of us talk about doping it hurts the sport, so we should all stop posting. This includes you of course. I suspect this means we've heard the last of you. Bye.

Yea, yea, me too...100% agree. Everyone just needs to shut up and stop having opinions about anything that involves the UCI, Lance Armstrong, or Iraq. Nothing more to see here, move along.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Apparently some of you don't get it. I just deleted some 20 posts that were off topic, after I warned everyone!

This thread is about Allen Lim. Not the UCI, not the NCAA, not Iraq. Want to talk about those things? Start another thread, and make sure it's in the appropriate place.

Meanwhile.

The next person who makes a post off topic gets an infraction!

No exception!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Off topic.

......

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Due to posting times I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt Doc.

But this is no joke. The entire forum has been filled with off topic posts and personal attacks, and it has to stop now.

 

[theswordsman]

I don't know if this has been quoted already, but Bicycling did a lengthy story earlier in the year, giving his history and detailing his time with Lance in Hawaii.He got Armstrong to swallow a thermometer pill, and eat a rice cake.

He thought that Landis was capable of the performance on the stage where he was busted based on his power numbers, and because he had used the cutting edge idea of getting double the water bottles so he could dump some on his head to cool a bit. Lots of interesting stuff in the four pages. Plus it has the appropriate title: "Out On A Lim".

So Lim wandered back to the comfort of full-time cycling work. His successful PhD research included the experimental use of the CycleOps PowerTap, making him a pioneer and a go-to person for the rationale and escalating buzz behind training with power. CycleOps dubbed the consulting Lim the "voice of power," and at the company's January 2005 training camp he first worked with Floyd Landis. Soon after Lim joined the Tour de France hopeful's coaching staff, where, among other tasks, he delved into Landis's power-meter numbers.

The Landis experiment, which included two tours of Europe, had Lim scraping out a living in cycling and loving every moment. That came to abrupt halt in 2006, when Landis tested positive after his sensational breakaway in the Tour's Stage 17. Lim was blindsided--particularly because he had analyzed Landis's data and felt certain he had a rational, science-based explanation for the result. "It would be the last thing I could ever dream of," he told the Sunday Times of London in 2008. In fact, Lim says, Landis had been putting up the kind of power numbers that made the effort plausible. And Landis had tried Lim's thermoregulation theories on that stage, cooling himself as he pumped along by receiving more than twice the usual number of water bottles. He simply dumped the extras over his head. "Nobody had ever done that before, to my knowledge," says Lim.

The scandal offered another chance for Lim to demonstrate resiliency. He nearly went bust starting Celestial Seasonings, but he used the team to test the then-unknown PowerTap system, which he now says "made me." The Landis affair focused him on Vaughters's developing clean-racing mission and his Boulder-based amateur squad, TIAA-CREF. Lim had begun working for TIAA-CREF in 2005, helping to mentor his hometown team as he worked internationally with Landis. Notably, he didn't pussyfoot into an expanded role with CREF, which would become Team Garmin. Instead he found a coconspirator in Vaughters, and the two implemented the most complete and ambitious independent drug-testing program in the sport's history. "The idea [for the team] hit home after everything that happened with Floyd," Lim says. "I wasn't necessary disillusioned, I was manic about the notion that this would've prevented him [from doping] if he had and would've cleared him if he hadn't.

"It became this win-win belief or philosophy, and it was a very statistical, very zero-tolerance look at it."

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-12-22721-1,00.html

 

[gree0232]

The UCI is the "system" as they, for better or worse, are first to widely implement the "Bio-Passort" program. As such, the collection of data points, review of data and use of data in charging a doping infraction, would seem to me to be a "system", and one that is elevated above what WADA could implement.

The UCI directs their own testing, sending DCO's out against the ADA/WADA whereabouts system. Tests are submitted to WADA labs, so, as a matter of a "system" they are the sport and they are the innovators of the detection method which transcends the WADA world.

To the extent that "all" cyclists employ the methods of Landis is a stretch but the information revealed by Landis does indicate the ease with which a determined and enabled athlete can exploit the testing "system". As it is, even Ashenden proclaims Landis as delivering the missing pieces and states that while useful, it will not necessarily mean more cheating athletes will be caught.

I think you oversimplify by suggesting a DCO should look in the fridge, as that is outside the scope of what they may do (or ask) or observe (what is in plain view). And to the point you make about hundreds of athletes hiding blood bags, let's not gloss past the Puerto, Humanplasma, or Friedberg clinic scandals. These were highly organized programs where literally hundreds of bags of blood had been handled and stored.

Regarding your take on EPO, tracking and distribution, I think you reveal your lack of knowledge. Significant amounts of rEPO, anabolics, HGH and other enhancers come from eastern Europe, Russia and China. There are severe corruption issues in these places, which begs an even biggest problem. So, you simplified view is just that: simplified. That pharmacies and medical shipping centers have been jacked, and large qty's of these medicines are now on the black market should be an indicator of demand. As such, the police are clearly concerned about these issues but are up against organized crime.

Keep in mind, these are highly engineered medicines, manufactured under strict environments and controls, given their intended use. This is not bathtub Gin or home cooked amphetamines.

Overall, I think your dialogue is interesting but you simply lack the knowledge about how doping works in professional sports. It is not about being predictive or accusing without proof. It is about the very small step, after years and years of commitment to a sport, that is taken to dope. Do you take a small amount of medicines, which generally won't hurt you but will mean you can be competitive enough to keep your job, or do you grip your moral compass and walk away? If you think there is a third option, you are quite wrong. For those very very few who have the natural talent and ability to perform at a professional level in cycling completely devoid of doping, they too must think about what won't be able to do against the riders who dope.

Doping is everywhere. From local amateur cyclist, to mid-level Pro's (the Joe Papp's) all the way up to the top shelf. It is endemic. For a fellow like Lim, for as smart, observant, and informed as he is, to claim he simply had no knowledge of what was going on with an athlete whose care and performance he is charged with tending to, I find purely impossible. Also, I know it is impossible for other reasons, suffice to say.

I make no issue with whether he "comes forward", though I think anyone who has watched that video will agree that when his atty informs him of the risks of lying to US Federal agents, or what an obstruction charge carries, he will weigh out what he stands to gain by collaborating Landis' information and negotiating his own probation (or what have you).

Well, I think we need to take a look at the whole system if we are going to try and throw a wrench into the system or claim that it is broken. The biological passport is only one portion of a much larger system with many overlapping parts. For example, in many cases it is a crime for athletes to use doping products. This is one of the major loop holes that was closed in Spain after Operation Puerto. That tells us that the local and indeed national police and law enforcement agencies are invovled in the invetigation of doping and supporting activity.

Again, there are requirements needed to make large scale or even small scale drug rings work. These leave tell tale signs that are traceable and trackable. For instance, blood doping requires storage, testing, a medical facility to reingest the blood, and some sort of medical professional to make sur ethe procedure is done correctly. There are only a finite number of facilities available that can do this, and there are sufficient police to investigate when suspicion falls upon facilities that cater to this demand. Additionally, and as with BALCO, the supply chain can be targeted and eliminated and the guilty found and punished.

Such a system also has finances, or payments for services. This is one of the tell tale signs that eventually connected Ullrich to Operation Puerto. This can be hidden by going under the guise of 'training' or 'coaching', but when the riers assosiated with the trainer begin popping positive it points in a fairly strong direction. This is the case with Santuccione. It should be noted that to date only one of Allen Lim's riders has tested positive - Floyd Landis.

There are many other methods available to combat doping, and thus many resources to test theories about innocence or guilt. I think Allen Lim has made comments about doping in cycling, and they speak for themselves.

"AS: I guess I should clarify, you believe that doping simply helps the rider achieve his true potential, and that true potential is also achievable with ethical methods.

AL: That would be a fair point, except I would also say that doping is very destructive in that it can actually harm athletes much more. What people always forget is how many risks are associated with all these pharmacological agents. Those agents can actually impair performance. I also believe that doping deters performance, the culture of doping is quite an ironic one. I'll bring a couple of points to the table.

One is the psychological aspect. If someone is motivated with that kind of fear, ignorance, greed, there's no way they're sleeping well at night. I think the psychological burden of being a cheat takes away from being a true athlete. Some people can handle that pressure, but I think most people can’t. There's enough pressure as there is in the sport and life in general.

Two, let's talk about all the health risks associated. With EPO, there's certainly been instances where athletes have had irregular health problems or even death, that's a clear case of doping having a negative impact on performance! I think that nobody's intelligent enough to understand how all these different medications interact with someone's physiology, with different bottlenecks that might regulate performance, and in the end, it's not like there are certain on/off switches you can turn on in a human body. There are literally hundreds of thousands of different genes, different cells, factors that might impact someone's performance on a daily basis. Thinking that one or two or three types of different illicit substances, drugs with known risk factors, can help, is as ignorant or naive as the initial blanket statement of saying, "You can't win clean."

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-clean-perspective

 

[Hugh Januss]

Well, I think





http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-clean-perspective

Reading what you write I get the impression that you are not a bad guy and probably even believe most of the things you write, but do you really think somebody with Lim's training can watch his riders getting stronger in the third week of a GT after getting their fill up and say "I knew it those rice cakes are really kicking in now".

 

[gree0232]

Reading what you write I get the impression that you are not a bad guy and probably even believe most of the things you write, but do you really think somebody with Lim's training can watch his riders getting stronger in the third week of a GT after getting their fill up and say "I knew it those rice cakes are really kicking in now".

I think there is a little more to what Allen Lim does than rice cakes.

And yes, I realy do think that hard work and discipline coupled with targeted training can make a significant difference - even a greater difference than doping.

I cannot find the source, but it is an interetsing read if you can find it. However, I ran across an interview from some of the riders who admitted their involvement with doping in the aftermath of the Festina affair. One of teh aspects that rarely gets talked about is the psychological effects of doping and the inculcation of the belief that you cannot win without the dope. I think this explains the ups and downs, the variance from total victory to obscurity that effects guys like Iban Mayo and Igor Astarloa.

If you don;t believe that hard work and specific tarining can yield results, then you have no business getting into the coaching business in any sport (that would include Allen Lim).

Niave that may be, but it is necessary for any sport to thrive.

Again, I fully acknowledge that there are those will cheat every system, but we cannot allow a few bad apples to caste suspicion on everyone. I am confident that there are clean riders in the peloton today, and that these clean riders are winning races.