Allen Lim

[Rip:30]

Yep, but when you make accussations, people will still want to know that it is more than just rabid speculation. And in a discussion, it is perfectly logical and acceptable to point out when something is based on pure speculation without any proof.

And teh speculation runs in BOTH directions. If you speculate that Landis is NOW telling the truth, what does it also mean if he is NOW lying?

Please, speculate away, but if we are in a public forum demanding that a respected coach ppony up doping information based on that speculation .... well, I believe that moves beyong the realm of speculation and into the realm of accussation.

A word of caution is always appropriate as one crosses that line.

Now, one last time TFF, no one is forcing you to read anything here. Stop the speculation about other people's worth as human beings and false, silly statements aimed at posters. If I, or anyone else, wants advice about our personal lives from you we will ask.

Pure rubbish, as they say in commonweath speak.

I haven't even read all the lead up to this, but it's glaringly obvious Lim has been caught in a lie. Landis doped, lab tests report this, CAS says so, USADA says so, LANDIS himself says so. We also know Lim was his coach/advisor/whatever during the time-frame of at least some of the doping therefore he, at the least, would have had access to power training data that would be suspicious (as in very different from un-jacked riders, which Lim has studied in depth as part of his PhD dissertation). Lim has continually claimed he had no idea about Floyd's PED use, rather he believes in "mind over matter" or "belief in clean riding can equal better performances then drugs". B.S. Lim, we know it and you know we know it.

So thus Lim is either very stupid or lying. Knowing Lim personally, I do not think he is either stupid or naive. He is hiding a lot of info and needs to be questioned.

 

[Ferminal]

This actually kinda proves the point Wiggins and VdV doing much better, neither suspected of doping, no indications of abnormalities in the bio passpor, but steadily improvring results.

Even David Millar seems to have benefited from Dr. Lim's advice.

The common denominator here seems to be looking at success and not just suspecting the use of dope but trying to use success and improvement as 'proof' of doping.

Finally, we have no idea what prompted Floyd's sudden burst of 'honesty'. This could just as easily be about revenge as it is about coming clean - and bear in mind he has pretty much blamed everyone but himself and appears to just be hoping that we would ignore the previous four years of denial that suddenly reversal right in the middle of a race he wanted to ride but couldn't.

I think calling Dr. Lim to account based on that is pretty thin.

Are you on the UCI biological passport panel?

 

[Race Radio]

Are you on the UCI biological passport panel?

In his time off from being a Ranger

 

[Rip:30]

In his time off from being a Ranger

The forum should institute an age verification procedure. That way those under the age of 18 will not be allowed to post their fantasies.

 

[gree0232]

Pure rubbish, as they say in commonweath speak.

I haven't even read all the lead up to this, but it's glaringly obvious Lim has been caught in a lie. Landis doped, lab tests report this, CAS says so, USADA says so, LANDIS himself says so. We also know Lim was his coach/advisor/whatever during the time-frame of at least some of the doping therefore he, at the least, would have had access to power training data that would be suspicious (as in very different from un-jacked riders, which Lim has studied in depth as part of his PhD dissertation). Lim has continually claimed he had no idea about Floyd's PED use, rather he believes in "mind over matter" or "belief in clean riding can equal better performances then drugs". B.S. Lim, we know it and you know we know it.

So thus Lim is either very stupid or lying. Knowing Lim personally, I do not think he is either stupid or naive. He is hiding a lot of info and needs to be questioned.

Oh, I agree, but we have Dr. Lim saying he had no idea. Up until just a few days ago, even Floyd said he didn't and spent millions making the case that he did not dope.

Someone is going to win the race at the end of the day.

Here is Dr. Lim talking about this stuff as it was unfolding and as he is looking at the power readings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/weekinreview/23austen.html

Here are his power readings from the 'day' in 2006, and these have been used to show that Landis was not greatly exceeding the other riders (who waited to chase Landis down giving him the gap he needed).

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/2-old-...ile-for-his-tour-de-france-attack-in-stage-17

So if we are going to use phrases like "you know we know", then I have to ask a simply question: Why are you not coming forward?

 

[Rip:30]

Oh, I agree, but we have Dr. Lim saying he had no idea. Up until just a few days ago, even Floyd said he didn't and spent millions making the case that he did not dope.

Someone is going to win the race at the end of the day.

Here is Dr. Lim talking about this stuff as it was unfolding and as he is looking at the power readings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/weekinreview/23austen.html

Here are his power readings from the 'day' in 2006, and these have been used to show that Landis was not greatly exceeding the other riders (who waiting to chase Landis down giving him the gap he needed).

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/2-old-...ile-for-his-tour-de-france-attack-in-stage-17

So if we are going to use phrases like "you know we know", then I have to ask a simply question: Why are you not coming forward?

Just like Lim's attempts, your straw men won't work on me.

Neither of your links demonstrate Lim's complete defense of Floyd at the time: that power data from "the comeback" was something that Floyd could and had replicated during training rides (and we have data to show this).

This argument of Lim's was build on the tacit assumption that since Floyd had not failed a test ever before that he was therefore clean before the tour when he produced these baseline power readings. If Floyd's comeback ride was just a regular old training ride power wise, then he didn't need to dope, right?

Obviously we know that passing tests is not equal to not doping in many cases, so Lim was ignoring that any file he had of an off season ride could also be from an "enhanced" Landis.

Lim still claims to have never seen doping and works for Radio Shack. Time to investigate, nothing speculative about that.

 

[Anonymous]

Just like Lim's attempts, your staw men won't work on me.

Neither of your links demonstrate Lim's complete defense of Floyd at the time: that power data from "the comeback" was something that Floyd could and had replicated during training rides (and we have data to show this).

This argument of Lim's was build on the tacit assumption that since Floyd had not failed a test ever before that he was therefore clean before the tour when he produced these baseline power readings. If Floyd's comeback ride was just a regular old training ride power wise, then he didn't need to dope, right?

Obviously we know that passing tests is not equal to not doping in many cases, so Lim was ignoring that any file he had of an off season ride could also be from an "enhanced" Landis.

Lim still claims to have never seen doping and works for Radio Shack. Time to investigate, nothing speculative about that.

I believe I am back to the point where the only sane option is to ignore him. He just is not capable of having an honest discussion. He has his agenda, and that is fine. There is no rule that you have to be open to changing your opinion in this world, and goodness knows that I am as guilty as any of that.

He is right, we don't know. What he misses is the weight of evidence that, if looked at in its totality, suggests that Landis just opened the top of the box and let everyone look in. There are still people who swear that no Jews were killed in Holocaust. If something like that can be denied, some narcissistic pr!ck who rides a bike and claims to never have doped will always attract believers even if there were pictures of him hooked up to a bag of blood.

What can you do but shake your head at the denial and move on.

 

[Epicycle]

I have a strong feeling that at some point Lim will meet the Feds and rationalizations about the power of positive thinking or his Chinese heritage aren't going to cut it.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Which is why I believe he will cooperate at some point. Trying to hold on to the assertion that he had nothing to do with Floyd's doping program, and had no clue Floyd was doping will be almost impossible. He's essentially going to have to argue that he still thinks Floyd was clean, and never doped. Taking this path is going to lead him to a very high tightrope walk, with no net underneath.

Python - Thanks for the clarification. I now see your point.

 

[JA.Tri]

I believe I am back to the point where the only sane option is to ignore him. ...

What can you do but shake your head at the denial and move on.

Absobloodylutely. Make an assessment and where appropriate ignore/discontinue dialogue.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I recommend that to everyone who doesn't want to read another member's posts. In case you missed the link. Here's how to use the ignore feature.

 

[Creatine Bob]

Now, one last time TFF, no one is forcing you to read anything here. Stop the speculation about other people's worth as human beings and false, silly statements aimed at posters. If I, or anyone else, wants advice about our personal lives from you we will ask.

Good point!

 

[buckwheat]

I recommend that to everyone who doesn't want to read another member's posts. In case you missed the link. Here's how to use the ignore feature.

If I don't ignore,

I'm shaken to my core.

TFF

PS, that's not to say the Pharmstrong deniers aren't delusional.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Great, now that that's out of the way, and we all now know how to ignore each others' posts if we want, let's all make the forum a better place and

STAY ON TOPIC!

 

[buckwheat]

Great, now that that's out of the way, and we all now know how to ignore each others' posts if we want, let's all make the forum a better place and

STAY ON TOPIC!

Not trying to be a wise guy, but the psychology of everyone involved from the athletes, to the coaches, to the fans, may be one of the most important aspects of the doping problem.

Lim obviously rationalized his behavior and watching that interview where he looked flummoxed it appears that he thought he could escape scrutiny.

If this guy really believes half of that power of positive thinking, EPO is a placebo, and core cooling and hydration, over what Pro cyclists normally do, are as impactful as doping he's literally insane.

That crazy interview seemed to smash him in the face with a reality he'd been denying.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That is being on topic.

Bickering about each other and who to ignore and why, isn't.

 

[La Vie Claire]

I recommend that to everyone who doesn't want to read another member's posts. In case you missed the link. Here's how to use the ignore feature.

Great idea. Now if someone would post a blacklist and maybe have this list certified by BroDeal or TheHog, then we're good to go.

And to stay on topic: Lim is an awful liar. If he hasn't already done so, he better quickly lawyer up b/f Novisky comes a'knocking.

 

[this_is_edie]

Yep. Lim must be shaking in his boots right now. How can he now say that he didn't know after years of PR about his knowledge and how closely he worked with Landis.

Speaking of working closely with Landis, wasn't Robbie Ventura also part of the trio?

 

[dbrower]

There is a system in place. The system works. The system is catching dopers. The system is making the peloton cleaner.

I'll agree there's a system. We can debate if it "works"; it is catching some dopers, but not all, and possibly not even a majority. Whether it is making the peloton cleaner seems to be conjecture and hope, not supported by much evidence.

What the system is unequivocally doing is putting on a show that it works, and seeming to catch dopers, and putting on the appearance of making the peloton cleaner. From the UCI's point of view, that is more than enough.

It's my opinion that the system is broken -- it doesn't catch enough of the dopers to significantly affect the culture, except to beat up on the riders even more than was historically the case. It continues to reinforce the arms race that the best connected, most scientific of the dopers are the least likely to get popped, and the most likely to reap the rewards. I don't see how we can claim it is "working", except by assertion and wishful thinking.

-dB

 

[Creatine Bob]

Folks are far too keen to lay into Lim for his interview, when it is likely just his interviewing skills.

He is all about the aggregate of marginal gains. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not saying doping is not pervasive, just that Lim has chosen a different path.

 

[Creatine Bob]

It's my opinion that the system is broken -- it doesn't catch enough of the dopers to significantly affect the culture, except to beat up on the riders even more than was historically the case. It continues to reinforce the arms race that the best connected, most scientific of the dopers are the least likely to get popped, and the most likely to reap the rewards. I don't see how we can claim it is "working", except by assertion and wishful thinking.

Well, in all honesty the system is still being developed. It is not broken though, in fact, it is in the best state it has ever been in.

 

[Digger]

Yep, anyone who has gotten results as Garmin must therefore be doped ....

based on ....

And THAT is the problem.

There is a lot of talk about a house of card coming down, but simple accussation will never bring anything down. The people Landis implicated apparently knew for months that Landis would do what he did and they said, "Go right ahead."

It is time for the finger pointing sans proof to stop.

No no no. You said Wiggins gradually improved. I said really? Because he did not. Show me where he gradually improved. And again it is accusation.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

No no no. You said Wiggins gradually improved. I said really? Because he did not. Show me where he gradually improved. And again it is accusation.

Wiggins isn't really the topic of this discussion is he? Did you miss the post I made stating that everyone STAY ON TOPIC?

Or maybe you missed the post on how to use the ignore feature?

 

[BikeCentric]

Lim is also a spokesman for Saris Cycling Group, the company that sells Powertap hubs. They market him as a power training guru and he has a number of articles and videos regarding power training on their website.

The Landis admission puts his power training knowledge credibility at risk (at minimum) and his honesty at risk (at worst).

Seems like he's going to have some 'splaining to do to his corporate masters as well as Novitzsky.

 

[frenchfry]

I'll agree there's a system. We can debate if it "works"; it is catching some dopers, but not all, and possibly not even a majority. Whether it is making the peloton cleaner seems to be conjecture and hope, not supported by much evidence.

What the system is unequivocally doing is putting on a show that it works, and seeming to catch dopers, and putting on the appearance of making the peloton cleaner. From the UCI's point of view, that is more than enough.

It's my opinion that the system is broken -- it doesn't catch enough of the dopers to significantly affect the culture, except to beat up on the riders even more than was historically the case. It continues to reinforce the arms race that the best connected, most scientific of the dopers are the least likely to get popped, and the most likely to reap the rewards. I don't see how we can claim it is "working", except by assertion and wishful thinking.

-dB

Correct me if I am wrong, but up to now you have argued that the system is corrupt, so the dopers that have been caught aren't really guilty they are victims of the system.

If you look at all the dopers that have been caught (either by the anti-doping agencies or police action) over the past few years, the list is long and includes a lot of big names. I agree that not enough are caught, but lots are. Is the system working? It certainly isn't perfect but then what "system" is.