Allen Lim

[Creatine Bob]

As Gree will never answer a direct question to his obfuscation I will help him

Answer: Neither!

Do I win a prize?

Gree nakes some interesting points. One might not agree with him, but they are possible.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Landis is a man who had no reason to lie. He has lost everything, if being financially and professionally ruined was the only thing that happened to him, he probably would have kept his mouth shut.

But he has truly lost everything. I can't imagine what it is like to be him or lose that much. It's a downfall of biblical proprtions.

Em ... you're forgetting the fact he has a book coming out!

 

[BroDeal]

Here's a question for those that think Lim is telling the truth.

If an experienced coach and trainer with a doctorate in exercise physiology and daily access to a rider's blood values, power readings, diet and training log is unable to determine, or even suspect, that anything is amiss even though the rider is a rampant doper, what chance does any outside testing body have of catching dopers?

Even ignoring Landis' revelation that Lim was helping him blood dope, I do not see how Lim could not have known. He was analyzing Landis' power files. He would have seen wild swings as Landis had blood withdrawn and transfused. By all accounts he is very far from being a dumb man. How could he have not known that something was wrong?

 

[python]

@ alp - lim is not a physician.

i’ve been pondering about lim’s involvement with floyd for quite awhile and still don’t know where i stand.
the thing is, i had several contacts with him and the guy is very good at his trade.

on the one hand, i respect his knowledge but on the other, i’m beginning to think he might have misused the knowledge when he partnered with flandis.

my suspicion goes back to 2005-2006 when an unusual (for pro cycling anyway) openness was introduced - floyd’s actual power numbers in 2 tour de frances were made public daily. it was said to be a new transparency because floyd had nothing to hide.

was it transparency or a cover up ?

don’t know if lim was a direct accomplice but i find it very hard to believe lim did not suspect blood doping.

that said, i think he washed his hands in 2006.

little did he know, some dirt remained.

 

[theswordsman]

In the past thirteen days, either the Clinic has attracted a lot of new people who have the same point of view and travel in packs, or it's been turned into a sock puppet show. Any thought from people who have been posting for more than a couple of months? I'm not as good with the I Spy game as some.

 

[bianchigirl]

It's the Public Strategies defence

 

[JA.Tri]

In the past thirteen days, either the Clinic has attracted a lot of new people who have the same point of view and travel in packs, or it's been turned into a sock puppet show. Any thought from people who have been posting for more than a couple of months? I'm not as good with the I Spy game as some.

While only posting since Giro start, I have lurked for considerably longer! The very significant increase in new posters (including me ) and the degree of full on initial posting with adamantine views is weird.

So ill qualified as I am, I second the motion.

 

[Epicycle]

that said, i think he washed his hands in 2006.

I don't think that is a good assumption to make about any of these guys.

 

[blackcat]

I don't think that is a good assumption to make about any of these guys.

I cant help but agree.

Remember the IM between Frankie and JV. I think JV's bias entered into his consciousness here, as he suggested Floyd was on no gear in 2005, and Hincapie may be clean. Frankie was not believing.

We know Hincapie was one of the biggest chargers on USPS, and we know Floyd was on up to 2.5 litres of blood.

Or, JV was completely ignorant. I reckon it was JV's bias against, StrongArm, not that I blame 'im.

So, whatta we got. We got a JV thinking a 2005 Landis climbs into the top 10 on GC, clean.

And bingo, we got a JV adamant Wigans and Christian VdV were clean riding into the top 10 in 2008 and 2009. Aint this instructive folks.

And, who was a common denominator in those Tours. Any phd in exercise science? Why, one Allen Lim.

I think Lim is as dirty as any MD doctor that is working in cycling. Sorry to say. I believe in Lim all the way too.

 

[Ferminal]

Packing plasma is more profitable than baking rice cakes?

 

[Black-Balled]

If Lim is in cahoots with systematic doping, can you frigging IMAGINE the scientific sin that he promulgated?! Telling some BS about drinking slushy cold drinks...stuffing ice in MUTHAFAKIN panty hose down the shirt!

He is gonna have to flee the country if it turns out he is full of shyt! Science is gonna kick his ahssss!

Even ignoring Landis' revelation that Lim was helping him blood dope, I do not see how Lim could not have known. He was analyzing Landis' power files. He would have seen wild swings as Landis had blood withdrawn and transfused. By all accounts he is very far from being a dumb man. How could he have not known that something was wrong?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

In the past thirteen days, either the Clinic has attracted a lot of new people who have the same point of view and travel in packs, or it's been turned into a sock puppet show. Any thought from people who have been posting for more than a couple of months? I'm not as good with the I Spy game as some.

Funds are being diverted from Public Strategies to numbered bank accounts for american expatriots....otherwise there would be more (and smarter) defenders of the dream.

So we are stuck with puppeteers, and second rate obfuscators.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

@ alp - lim is not a physician.

Sorry if I mis-spoke. But I did list his credentials and proper education in some of my earlier posts. The point I was trying to make is that Lim has a Ph.D in integrative physiology, and to not suspect a single thing, as BroDeal pointed out, when working so closely to Landis is highly, highly suspect of his involvement. Or he's incredibly incompetent and naive.

[EDIT - I just went back and looked at my other posts and I can't find where I called him a physician, or inferred he was an MD.]

Any thought from people who have been posting for more than a couple of months?

Uh, I'm the one trying to steer this conversation towards the topic, and I believe I joined the first week the forum was open. Don't I count?

 

[mikkemus23]

Sorry Susan & Alpe, I just had to...

Stay on topic or I will be handing out infractions, followed by bans.

Final warning! No exceptions!

This thread is about Allen Lim, Floyd Landis former physician. Keep the conversation on that, or don't bother posting.

Next replay:

For the people hanging out with Hunter S. Thompson, nothing was unusual, was it?

Ah, a real blast from the past.....

Susan

LOL

 

[gree0232]

I cant help but agree.

Remember the IM between Frankie and JV. I think JV's bias entered into his consciousness here, as he suggested Floyd was on no gear in 2005, and Hincapie may be clean. Frankie was not believing.

We know Hincapie was one of the biggest chargers on USPS, and we know Floyd was on up to 2.5 litres of blood.

Or, JV was completely ignorant. I reckon it was JV's bias against, StrongArm, not that I blame 'im.

So, whatta we got. We got a JV thinking a 2005 Landis climbs into the top 10 on GC, clean.

And bingo, we got a JV adamant Wigans and Christian VdV were clean riding into the top 10 in 2008 and 2009. Aint this instructive folks.

And, who was a common denominator in those Tours. Any phd in exercise science? Why, one Allen Lim.

I think Lim is as dirty as any MD doctor that is working in cycling. Sorry to say. I believe in Lim all the way too.

This actually kinda proves the point Wiggins and VdV doing much better, neither suspected of doping, no indications of abnormalities in the bio passpor, but steadily improvring results.

Even David Millar seems to have benefited from Dr. Lim's advice.

The common denominator here seems to be looking at success and not just suspecting the use of dope but trying to use success and improvement as 'proof' of doping.

Finally, we have no idea what prompted Floyd's sudden burst of 'honesty'. This could just as easily be about revenge as it is about coming clean - and bear in mind he has pretty much blamed everyone but himself and appears to just be hoping that we would ignore the previous four years of denial that suddenly reversal right in the middle of a race he wanted to ride but couldn't.

I think calling Dr. Lim to account based on that is pretty thin.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

@ alp - lim is not a physician.

What sort of difference does that make? (No, I am not being 'smart'?)

There are probably loads of MD's who haven't seen a live breathing patient in years.

Here's a guy who spends his life doing NOTHING but looking at charts and graphs of individual athletic performance, who is probably intimately familiar with the science of how the body turns chemicals into energy. How does the absence of being an MD make a whole lot of meaningful difference?

Main Entry: phys·i·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: \ˌfi-zē-ˈä-lə-jē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin physiologia natural science, from Greek, from physi- + -logia -logy
Date: 1615
1 : a branch of biology that deals with the functions and activities of life or of living matter (as organs, tissues, or cells) and of the physical and chemical phenomena involved — compare anatomy
2 : the organic processes and phenomena of an organism or any of its parts or of a particular bodily process

Sorry if this comes as an insult to any doctors here, but the ones I deal with for my health issues know just a tiny bit more than the average layperson.

take away the script pad and they are just about useless. My bias, fair enough.

 

[python]

[EDIT - I just went back and looked at my other posts and I can't find where I called him a physician, or inferred he was an MD.]

not too important nor trying to be a nitpicker. just setting the record straight.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=231579&postcount=169

This thread is about Allen Lim, Floyd Landis former physician

given the fact, that lim is not a physician and was administering blood transfusions (as flandis accused him of), he may be facing additional questions/charges from the feds.

 

[Digger]

This actually kinda proves the point Wiggins and VdV doing much better, neither suspected of doping, no indications of abnormalities in the bio passpor, but steadily improvring results.
Even David Millar seems to have benefited from Dr. Lim's advice.

The common denominator here seems to be looking at success and not just suspecting the use of dope but trying to use success and improvement as 'proof' of doping.

Finally, we have no idea what prompted Floyd's sudden burst of 'honesty'. This could just as easily be about revenge as it is about coming clean - and bear in mind he has pretty much blamed everyone but himself and appears to just be hoping that we would ignore the previous four years of denial that suddenly reversal right in the middle of a race he wanted to ride but couldn't.

I think calling Dr. Lim to account based on that is pretty thin.

In Wiggins' case...really?

 

[drb716]

If Lim caves, implicates all his clients, and the proverbial house of cards comes down, what becomes of the sport, particularly with regard to the UCI if the organization itself is implicated in covering?

Thanks

 

[scribe]

If Lim caves, implicates all his clients, and the proverbial house of cards comes down, what becomes of the sport, particularly with regard to the UCI if the organization itself is implicated in covering?

Thanks

It comes out that the UCI and anti-doping agencies are incapable of testing their athletes, for lack of science rather than lack of interest. The public will learn the biopassport exists primarily for egregious abuse that might result in the death of the riders. The sport's sponsors will pull out in mass because of the implications of the scandal. It will all burn down, and that which will be re-created in its wake will resemble exactly what we have now, because doping authorities will always be 10 steps behind the science that is creating this doped up spectacle. All cyclists who want to survive in the sport are faced with the simple reality that no one knows who is on what. Go clean, and risk the loss of your work, irrespective of talent.

 

[Anonymous]

It comes out that the UCI and anti-doping agencies are incapable of testing their athletes, for lack of science rather than lack of interest. The public will learn the biopassport exists primarily for egregious abuse that might result in the death of the riders. The sport's sponsors will pull out in mass because of the implications of the scandal. It will all burn down, and that which will be re-created in its wake will resemble exactly what we have now, because doping authorities will always be 10 steps behind the science that is creating this doped up spectacle. All cyclists who want to survive in the sport are faced with the simple reality that no one knows who is on what. Go clean, and risk the loss of your work, irrespective of talent.

I just want to see Armstrong go down in flames personally...

 

[gree0232]

In Wiggins' case...really?

Yep, anyone who has gotten results as Garmin must therefore be doped ....

based on ....

And THAT is the problem.

There is a lot of talk about a house of card coming down, but simple accussation will never bring anything down. The people Landis implicated apparently knew for months that Landis would do what he did and they said, "Go right ahead."

It is time for the finger pointing sans proof to stop.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, anyone who has gotten results as Garmin must therefore be doped ....

based on ....

And THAT is the problem.

There is a lot of talk about a house of card coming down, but simple accussation will never bring anything down. The people Landis implicated apparently knew for months that Landis would do what he did and they said, "Go right ahead."

It is time for the finger pointing sans proof to stop.

Why is it that you believe that on a cycling forum where there is a section dedicated to issues dealing with doping in cycling, we should stop speculation? I am fairly certain that none of us believe that we will be the coup de grace for doping in cycling. I am also certain that the proof or lack thereof of anything in this instance will come later than the accusation. So until that time, it is your position that we should cease discussion? Does that honestly make any sense to you?

This is not a court of law. We do not have to hold the same burden of proof that a court does, nor that you do. If you don't like the discussion here, I have a suggestion that will solve your problem permanently. Stop reading threads in The Clinic. See how simple that is? Only, my intuition tells me that you thrive on the discussion continuing, and that if it did indeed stop, we wouldn't see your name at the top of a post for quite some time.

 

[gree0232]

Why is it that you believe that on a cycling forum where there is a section dedicated to issues dealing with doping in cycling, we should stop speculation? I am fairly certain that none of us believe that we will be the coup de grace for doping in cycling. I am also certain that the proof or lack thereof of anything in this instance will come later than the accusation. So until that time, it is your position that we should cease discussion? Does that honestly make any sense to you?

This is not a court of law. We do not have to hold the same burden of proof that a court does, nor that you do. If you don't like the discussion here, I have a suggestion that will solve your problem permanently. Stop reading threads in The Clinic. See how simple that is? Only, my intuition tells me that you thrive on the discussion continuing, and that if it did indeed stop, we wouldn't see your name at the top of a post for quite some time.

Yep, but when you make accussations, people will still want to know that it is more than just rabid speculation. And in a discussion, it is perfectly logical and acceptable to point out when something is based on pure speculation without any proof.

And teh speculation runs in BOTH directions. If you speculate that Landis is NOW telling the truth, what does it also mean if he is NOW lying?

Please, speculate away, but if we are in a public forum demanding that a respected coach ppony up doping information based on that speculation .... well, I believe that moves beyong the realm of speculation and into the realm of accussation.

A word of caution is always appropriate as one crosses that line.

Now, one last time TFF, no one is forcing you to read anything here. Stop the speculation about other people's worth as human beings and false, silly statements aimed at posters. If I, or anyone else, wants advice about our personal lives from you we will ask.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, but when you make accussations, people will still want to know that it is more than just rabid speculation. And in a discussion, it is perfectly logical and acceptable to point out when something is based on pure speculation without any proof.

And teh speculation runs in BOTH directions. If you speculate that Landis is NOW telling the truth, what does it also mean if he is NOW lying?

Please, speculate away, but if we are in a public forum demanding that a respected coach ppony up doping information based on that speculation .... well, I believe that moves beyong the realm of speculation and into the realm of accussation.

A word of caution is always appropriate as one crosses that line.

Now, one last time TFF, no one is forcing you to read anything here. Stop the speculation about other people's worth as human beings and false, silly statements aimed at posters. If I, or anyone else, wants advice about our personal lives from you we will ask.

I hear what you are saying, and would suggest you read your last paragraph very carefully for what you yourself can learn from it.

"rabid" is a rhetorical term that has little to no relation to anything anyone has written about the subject. It is a characterization from someone who has shown several times to have poor knowledge of the actual facts of that which he speaks.

If I need to be cautioned, I would take it from someone I respect. You don't fit that bill regardless of your professions of personal glory and honor. You have been dishonest on many occasions here.

Lastly, as I said before, if you don't like how public forums work, go to another one. It will save you much consternation.