Allen Lim

[BikeCentric]

Gree,
With all due respect, you just revealed that you don't even know the reason why cyclists take blood transfusions. You are completely out of your element and are polluting this board with your excessively verbose garbage. Please FFS shorten your posts and/or pipe down and actually do some reading.

 

[basque1]

Self-preservation is a base instinct.

Hahahah! "Basic" instinct was meant, I presume. A slip of the tongue produces an amusing result.

 

[gree0232]

I think you are being intentionally disingenuous in your question above.

I do not think anyone is questioning Landis' work ethic or dedication to training. No matter the dope, you must do the work.

The central question is whether in accusing Phonak mgmt of being aware and funding his doping exploits, would Allen Lim be on the "outside" of the knowledge, given he was so integral to Landis' preparation for the Tour in 2006?

If he was looking at training diaries, that now are claimed to detail his doping program with coded info, and was with Landis day-to-day, either he is not very observant (not likely), was not trusted enough to include him within the circle, or is maintaining his innocence to keep his job.

Self-preservation is a base instinct.

So, to disagree is to be disingenuous?

Did it occur to you that the persn being less than honest right now might by Floyd Landis?

I watched his arbirtration hearing, and, quite frankly, he had a pretty convincing case that he did not dope (or at least use steroids). Nevertheless, he went through the process and was convicted of doping.

Now, all of the sudden, after months of threats, after being denied the breaks he deserves he comes out with a whopping bomb shell and is suddenly an honest man? The fact that he has made some outlandish claims (like the UCI/WADA taking bribes, like now team BMC engaged in systemic doping - i.e. it wasn't my fault.) Are we really supposed to believe that JO pulled out of the sport because he feared being caught up in doping rather than because Flodt tested positive only shortly after Tyler H did?

Look, one way or another Floyd did not tell the truth. His photos from the ToC do not look like a man that is finally at peace, they look like a man who is tired, bedragled, and isolated. And yet I see no mention of this, while at the same time people make hash out of Allen Lim looking nervous in front of a camera?

The simple fact of the matter is that Allen Lim has taken a very strong public stand against doping, was working with Garmin who has a very strong anti-doping plan, and went to RS which also, though for some reason not believed, has a very strong anti doping program (and much hash - but no proof - has been served out regarding that move).

If your whole operation is geared around studying the human body and finding training methods to enhance performance through hard work, why would you find doping to be the cause of success (from a rider who assures you that there is no dope involved) rather than your training program?

We have a very shoddy accussation, and are now demanding that Dr. Lim pony up with an admission of guilt?

Given Floyd's recent comments, might Dr. Lim go back and take a closer look at his data? Probably.

Given that Floyd is a former friend who is clearly suffereing at the moment, might he simply be uncomfortable talking about an issue to avoid kicking a guy when he is down? Probably.

The fact of the matter is that many think Floyd has finally come clean and I have to wonder about a guy coming out four years later and handing someone exactly what they always thought without a shred of evidence.

There may very well be soem disingenuity here, but taking Floyd's word as gospel would be something of a risk at this point.

 

[gree0232]

Gree,
With all due respect, you just revealed that you don't even know the reason why cyclists take blood transfusions. You are completely out of your element and are polluting this board with your excessively verbose garbage. Please FFS shorten your posts and/or pipe down and actually do some reading.

How about you realize this is a public discussion forum.

If you are taking micro doses of EPO and reinhecting your own blood to maintain levels to beat testing .... that is what Floyd said he was doing and that this was the method used to beat the biological passport. Read.

If you are JUST reinjecting your blood, that is obvously to have fresher blood with better oxygination. Wow.

No one is forcing you to be here or to read my posts. And quite frankly I am tired of the sanctimony of a few posters who seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them is a flawed human being.

I am even more sick of people laying assumptions, usually false, down as the basis for personal attacks that have nothing to do with the discussion.

Stay on topic and keep your God dambed insults to yourself, the only thing they reflect on is you.

 

[BroDeal]

How about you realize this is a public discussion forum.

If you are taking micro doses of EPO and reinhecting your own blood to maintain levels to beat testing .... that is what Floyd said he was doing and that this was the method used to beat the biological passport. Read.

If you are JUST reinjecting your blood, that is obvously to have fresher blood with better oxygination. Wow.

No one is forcing you to be here or to read my posts. And quite frankly I am tired of the sanctimony of a few posters who seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them is a flawed human being.

I am even more sick of people laying assumptions, usually false, down as the basis for personal attacks that have nothing to do with the discussion.

Stay on topic and keep your God dambed insults to yourself, the only thing they reflect on is you.

Maybe if you ever posted something other than long winded, fatuous apologies for Armstrong's doping then people would take you more seriously.

 

[gree0232]

Maybe if you ever posted something other than long winded, fatuous apologies for Armstrong's doping then people would take you more seriously.

Maybe if you could actually make a post relevant to the topic it would be nice.

A reminder that this is not a cult and that I do not simply have to follow the orthodoxy of cynicism and accussation.

Can you handle someone disagreeing with you?

Insult all you want, it proves nothing.

Short enough for you?

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Stop it with the personal stuff, both sides.

If you can't discuss things rationally, take a break and do something else.

And both sides must remember that everyone is entitled to express his or her opinion here. I don't care what that opinion is, but once your tone crosses a certain line, you will be sanctioned.

And that line is rapidly approaching.

Susan

 

[Digger]

So, to disagree is to be disingenuous?

Did it occur to you that the persn being less than honest right now might by Floyd Landis?

I watched his arbirtration hearing, and, quite frankly, he had a pretty convincing case that he did not dope (or at least use steroids). Nevertheless, he went through the process and was convicted of doping.

Now, all of the sudden, after months of threats, after being denied the breaks he deserves he comes out with a whopping bomb shell and is suddenly an honest man? The fact that he has made some outlandish claims (like the UCI/WADA taking bribes, like now team BMC engaged in systemic doping - i.e. it wasn't my fault.) Are we really supposed to believe that JO pulled out of the sport because he feared being caught up in doping rather than because Flodt tested positive only shortly after Tyler H did?

Look, one way or another Floyd did not tell the truth. His photos from the ToC do not look like a man that is finally at peace, they look like a man who is tired, bedragled, and isolated. And yet I see no mention of this, while at the same time people make hash out of Allen Lim looking nervous in front of a camera?

The simple fact of the matter is that Allen Lim has taken a very strong public stand against doping, was working with Garmin who has a very strong anti-doping plan, and went to RS which also, though for some reason not believed, has a very strong anti doping program (and much hash - but no proof - has been served out regarding that move).

If your whole operation is geared around studying the human body and finding training methods to enhance performance through hard work, why would you find doping to be the cause of success (from a rider who assures you that there is no dope involved) rather than your training program?

We have a very shoddy accussation, and are now demanding that Dr. Lim pony up with an admission of guilt?

Given Floyd's recent comments, might Dr. Lim go back and take a closer look at his data? Probably.

Given that Floyd is a former friend who is clearly suffereing at the moment, might he simply be uncomfortable talking about an issue to avoid kicking a guy when he is down? Probably.

The fact of the matter is that many think Floyd has finally come clean and I have to wonder about a guy coming out four years later and handing someone exactly what they always thought without a shred of evidence.

There may very well be soem disingenuity here, but taking Floyd's word as gospel would be something of a risk at this point.

Comedy genius......

Johan Bruyneel has said that the reason cycling finds itself in the position it is, is due to the sport agreeing too readily to blood testing. Yeah, that's a strong anti-doping message alright.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

So, to disagree is to be disingenuous?

Did it occur to you that the persn being less than honest right now might by Floyd Landis?

I watched his arbirtration hearing, and, quite frankly, he had a pretty convincing case that he did not dope (or at least use steroids). Nevertheless, he went through the process and was convicted of doping.

Now, all of the sudden, after months of threats, after being denied the breaks he deserves he comes out with a whopping bomb shell and is suddenly an honest man? The fact that he has made some outlandish claims (like the UCI/WADA taking bribes, like now team BMC engaged in systemic doping - i.e. it wasn't my fault.) Are we really supposed to believe that JO pulled out of the sport because he feared being caught up in doping rather than because Flodt tested positive only shortly after Tyler H did?

Look, one way or another Floyd did not tell the truth. His photos from the ToC do not look like a man that is finally at peace, they look like a man who is tired, bedragled, and isolated. And yet I see no mention of this, while at the same time people make hash out of Allen Lim looking nervous in front of a camera?

The simple fact of the matter is that Allen Lim has taken a very strong public stand against doping, was working with Garmin who has a very strong anti-doping plan, and went to RS which also, though for some reason not believed, has a very strong anti doping program (and much hash - but no proof - has been served out regarding that move).

If your whole operation is geared around studying the human body and finding training methods to enhance performance through hard work, why would you find doping to be the cause of success (from a rider who assures you that there is no dope involved) rather than your training program?

We have a very shoddy accussation, and are now demanding that Dr. Lim pony up with an admission of guilt?

Given Floyd's recent comments, might Dr. Lim go back and take a closer look at his data? Probably.

Given that Floyd is a former friend who is clearly suffereing at the moment, might he simply be uncomfortable talking about an issue to avoid kicking a guy when he is down? Probably.

The fact of the matter is that many think Floyd has finally come clean and I have to wonder about a guy coming out four years later and handing someone exactly what they always thought without a shred of evidence.

There may very well be soem disingenuity here, but taking Floyd's word as gospel would be something of a risk at this point.

To disagree perfectly acceptable. To toss a straw-man out to avoid the central question is.

If you do not believe Floyd, that is perfectly reasonable and your position to take. Though what you are citing as thoughtful reasons why simply are not adding up, to me.

As has been posited to you before, this process will take quite a while to sort out and come to a clear view.

Consider this: It is also quite possible that there are some folks on this board who are very well connected within the cycling world, sometimes far deeper than they even let on in PM's, and provide information as the "perhaps" well ahead of it being deemed as fact.

It is something you must consider.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Despite this back and forth, I still stand by the posts and questions of Lim I made on the previous page. I find it nearly impossible to believe he was so far out of the loop, or that he didn't suspect a single thing looking at Floyd's numbers, profiles and diaries - considering his PhD and expertise - that he knew nothing of Landis doping, or any doping around him in the sport before or since, as he claims.

It is also my opinion that at some point Lim will cooperate, or he will take a very hard fall. Though as Colm aptly points it, time will tell, as we are a long, long way from having this resolved.

 

[lightandlongshadows]

It'd be like going on tour with The Doors and saying "I didn't know Jim had a problem" or hanging out with Hunter S. Thompson and concluding that nothing unusual took place.

 

[tifosa]

It'd be like going on tour with The Doors and saying "I didn't know Jim had a problem" or hanging out with Hunter S. Thompson and concluding that nothing unusual took place.

The emoticon doesn't do my grin justice. I am smiling so hard my facial muscles are fast approaching lactic overload.

And god bless Hunter.

 

[Publicus]

Just to make sure the record is clear: (1) Floyd made no threats--that is an unsubstantiated allegation made by Armstrong. (2) Floyd made no effort to take this public. Only one of three emails were leaked by an unknown person or persons.

I think it is important to keep straight what Floyd is responsible for and so far it is neither of the two things listed above.

EDIT: Team Radio Shack does not have an anti-doping program. They abandoned it last year I believe because of the progress made with bio passport and Daamsgard is now working for UCI.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Well, frankly, dopers and their enablers, such as Lim are economic Machiavellians. In some sense, they are behaving rationally. Absent any morality or pretensions thereof, they are simply maximizing their utility. What RS is doing is the correct action if your goal was to maximize your income or chances of winning.

Sure, it's morally reprehensible, but neither RS nor Armstrong nor CdE, etc. made the rules. This is the moral fibre of professional cycling. That's what has to change. People like Allen Lim are just remoras feeding on the success of a much larger animal.

 

[gree0232]

To disagree perfectly acceptable. To toss a straw-man out to avoid the central question is.

If you do not believe Floyd, that is perfectly reasonable and your position to take. Though what you are citing as thoughtful reasons why simply are not adding up, to me.

As has been posited to you before, this process will take quite a while to sort out and come to a clear view.

Consider this: It is also quite possible that there are some folks on this board who are very well connected within the cycling world, sometimes far deeper than they even let on in PM's, and provide information as the "perhaps" well ahead of it being deemed as fact.

It is something you must consider.

Well, maybe we should take a look at that.

For one, calling all information that disagrees with you a strawman does not equate to a doping conviction. That has been the heart of my disagreements on this forum. A good question mught be: why?

Here are some questions for you? What defines our sport? Doping? Or the human sacrifice, training, dedication, all coming to a head in an exhaustive contest that leaves the strongest the victor?

THere is no other sport out there like cyling. None.

There are other sports that have had or are dealing with doping issues, and none of them seem to be going through the same kind of self flagelllation that cycling is inflicting on itself. Baseball had guys with heads that grew every year into massive bulbs, and it did not suffer the same fate as cycling. Why?

And therein lies the rub. Why did Floyd do what he did? I have a hard time believeing that this is all born out of some sudden birth of ethnics, and that everything within the past four years was all just a show. This has revenge written all over it, and for some reason, when we took his word with a grain of salt earlier, now we must consider it gospel?

And the Alan Lim case is a case in point. we are now assuming that Floyd is telling truth and demanding tha Lim own up. Own up to what? Believing in Floyd? If you gave to the Floyd Fairness Fund (and that would include me), you are as dupped as Alan Lim.

Welcome to the world of putting faith in human beings.

The system worked though. Floyd had his day in court and he lost. Valverde, and I was derided earlier because I assumed he would be found guilty, has had his day in court.

What Floyd has brough to the surface is the ugly reality of accussation and innuendo. Whether he is telling the truth or not, the public pot shots he took at literally the entire system is unacceptable. And the presumption that goes into demanding a man prove his innocence based on an angry accussation rings hallow.

There is a system in place. The system works. The system is catching dopers. The system is making the peloton cleaner.

Quite frankly, the sport needs to move beyond the taint of dope. We cannot continue to do this to ourselves, and we cannot continue to tar and feather everyone and anyone who gets involved with the sport and tries to bring it success.

 

[MarkGreen0]

This has revenge written all over it, and for some reason, when we took his word with a grain of salt earlier, now we must consider it gospel?

Even if he is lying I don't think some people would care. He's going after the evil one.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Quick question Gree re: Valverde and the 'system' working.

Did the UCI catch Valverde or the Spanish Federation??

 

[Race Radio]

Quick question Gree re: Valverde and the 'system' working.

Did the UCI catch Valverde or the Spanish Federation??

As Gree will never answer a direct question to his obfuscation I will help him

Answer: Neither!

Do I win a prize?

 

[blackcat]

Well, frankly, dopers and their enablers, such as Lim are economic Machiavellians. In some sense, they are behaving rationally. Absent any morality or pretensions thereof, they are simply maximizing their utility. What RS is doing is the correct action if your goal was to maximize your income or chances of winning.

Sure, it's morally reprehensible, but neither RS nor Armstrong nor CdE, etc. made the rules. This is the moral fibre of professional cycling. That's what has to change. People like Allen Lim are just remoras feeding on the success of a much larger animal.

good post. They did not make the unofficial maxim "if it does not show up, it is not doping", and the "don't get caught" rule. And they dont have the mandate of enforcing the rules, devolving into not enforcing the rules.

They did not make up bribes, back-room dealing, race fixing, in cycling sport, but they did bring it to a new level.

All good tho, Allan Greenspan would say it is up to the sport to police corruption itself, and let the market decide. It has. StrongArm!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As Gree will never answer a direct question to his obfuscation I will help him

Answer: Neither!

Do I win a prize?

Yes - a TUE for your drug of choice.

 

[Anonymous]

I decided to un-ignore you to see what you were posting today. Here are my answers to you questions and comments regarding your comments:

Well, maybe we should take a look at that.

For one, calling all information that disagrees with you a strawman does not equate to a doping conviction. That has been the heart of my disagreements on this forum. A good question mught be: why?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

If you cannot see how your "disagreements" take this form, then I would suggest you have little to no introspection. Surely we can all agree that you fit that fallacy almost to a T.

Here are some questions for you? What defines our sport? Doping? Or the human sacrifice, training, dedication, all coming to a head in an exhaustive contest that leaves the strongest the victor?

Unfortunately, doping defines the sport these days, and has for well over a decade. The cumulative evidence, anecdotes, and doping convictions is overwhelming if taken in their entirety.

THere is no other sport out there like cyling. None.

As a form of personal recreation, you are very correct. Glad we agree on something.

There are other sports that have had or are dealing with doping issues, and none of them seem to be going through the same kind of self flagelllation that cycling is inflicting on itself. Baseball had guys with heads that grew every year into massive bulbs, and it did not suffer the same fate as cycling. Why?

Good question. Maybe it is because the real fan base for cycling is heavily populated by people who engage in the sport themselves on a regular basis? Maybe our intimacy with the sport creates more emotional response to cheating? There are a thousand answers to this question. The fact is that cycling also has a history that does little to nothing to dispel the idea that doping is rampant.

And therein lies the rub. Why did Floyd do what he did? I have a hard time believeing that this is all born out of some sudden birth of ethnics, and that everything within the past four years was all just a show. This has revenge written all over it, and for some reason, when we took his word with a grain of salt earlier, now we must consider it gospel?

It matters little why he did it. If is allegations are true, then why he exposed them is beyond irrelevant.

And the Alan Lim case is a case in point. we are now assuming that Floyd is telling truth and demanding tha Lim own up. Own up to what? Believing in Floyd? If you gave to the Floyd Fairness Fund (and that would include me), you are as dupped as Alan Lim.

The difference between you and him is that he had constant contact with Floyd while he was riding and doping, and you just sent money to someone you don't know.

Welcome to the world of putting faith in human beings.

It is a human constant, we fail those around us in many ways regardless of who we are.

The system worked though. Floyd had his day in court and he lost. Valverde, and I was derided earlier because I assumed he would be found guilty, has had his day in court.

Unfortunately, you would have to believe that they were busted the only time they tried doping to believe they received just punishment for their doping.

What Floyd has brough to the surface is the ugly reality of accussation and innuendo. Whether he is telling the truth or not, the public pot shots he took at literally the entire system is unacceptable. And the presumption that goes into demanding a man prove his innocence based on an angry accussation rings hallow.

Obviously, a man will only have to truly defend his innocence if the Federal investigation finds something for him to defend himself against. I for one believe that will happen. You appear to believe nothing will come of this. We are both entitled our opinion, and the truth is likely to be somewhere between our visions of how this will play out.

There is a system in place. The system works. The system is catching dopers. The system is making the peloton cleaner.

If the system worked, people would be so scared to dope that very few people ever got busted. That lack of positives has yet to manifest itself in cycling.

Quite frankly, the sport needs to move beyond the taint of dope. We cannot continue to do this to ourselves, and we cannot continue to tar and feather everyone and anyone who gets involved with the sport and tries to bring it success.

The those who dope need to stop. At this point, you will have to excuse those of us who have followed the sport for many more years than Lance has been around if we are still a bit skeptical.

 

[MarkGreen0]

I decided to un-ignore you to see what you were posting today. Here are my answers to you questions and comments regarding your comments:

Yeah, answering questions is better than the baiting strategy and the old fake line about putting people on ignore. Well done for dropping the stroppy teenager impression and manning up.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Stay on topic or I will be handing out infractions, followed by bans.

Final warning! No exceptions!

This thread is about Allen Lim, Floyd Landis former physician. Keep the conversation on that, or don't bother posting.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

It'd be like going on tour with The Doors and saying "I didn't know Jim had a problem" or hanging out with Hunter S. Thompson and concluding that nothing unusual took place.

For the people hanging out with Hunter S. Thompson, nothing was unusual, was it?

Ah, a real blast from the past.....

Susan

 

[graviT]

Here's a question for those that think Lim is telling the truth.

If an experienced coach and trainer with a doctorate in exercise physiology and daily access to a rider's blood values, power readings, diet and training log is unable to determine, or even suspect, that anything is amiss even though the rider is a rampant doper, what chance does any outside testing body have of catching dopers?