America's Cup

[ChewbaccaD]

Ben Lexcen isn't Belgian. He's from New South Wales.


It's named the America's Cup after the yacht which first won it - called 'America'

"keel design itself was the result of Dutch engineers, and not by Lexcen"...so sorry, the Netherlands...and the Duke link isn't in print anymore, but I remember vividly the anger in my state over the contribution of that university in the development of the keel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_America's_Cup

I stand corrected on the America's Cup name though...

 

[Parker]

"keel design itself was the result of Dutch engineers, and not by Lexcen"...so sorry, the Netherlands...and the Duke link isn't in print anymore, but I remember vividly the anger in my state over the contribution of that university in the development of the keel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_America's_Cup

Remember this photo:

(An explanation here: http://archive.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/04/1983acup/)

Well it's a page from this patent, which lists Ben Lexcen of Norport Pty Ltd as the sole inventor: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...DB=&&CC=GB&NR=2114515A&KC=A&ND=1&locale=en_EP

I prefer to trust the Patent Office ahead of Wikipedia if I may.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Remember this photo:

(An explanation here: http://archive.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/04/1983acup/)

Well it's a page from this patent, which lists Ben Lexcen of Norport Pty Ltd as the sole inventor: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...DB=&&CC=GB&NR=2114515A&KC=A&ND=1&locale=en_EP

I prefer to trust the Patent Office ahead of Wikipedia if I may.

Yea, they'd never file that patent knowing that if they had put the true inventors, they would not have been able to sail the boat...Nobody ever does things like that when there are millions at stake in a sporting competition...Wait, somebody told me that people have even back dated TUE's in cycling to stay eligible...dang, it hurts to know that there is no honesty in sport...I'm gettin' all weepy...Hey, it's only cheating if you get caught, right?

The guys who actually did the work disagree that they don't deserve the recognition: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...tralias-Americas-Cup-winning-winged-keel.html

Not only did the Aussies use a foreign keel, they lied about it to ensure they could keep their win. That's just how they roll I guess...

 

[elapid]

Yea, they'd never file that patent knowing that if they had put the true inventors, they would not have been able to sail the boat...Nobody ever does things like that when there are millions at stake in a sporting competition...Wait, somebody told me that people have even back dated TUE's in cycling to stay eligible...dang, it hurts to know that there is no honesty in sport...I'm gettin' all weepy...Hey, it's only cheating if you get caught, right?

The guys who actually did the work disagree that they don't deserve the recognition: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...tralias-Americas-Cup-winning-winged-keel.html

Not only did the Aussies use a foreign keel, they lied about it to ensure they could keep their win. That's just how they roll I guess...

Legal patent versus UK newspaper article. Hmmm ... wonder which one I would believe?

 

[ChrisE]

How they did it:

Oracle didn't like the test results and decided against the tactic. "They had it so wrong out of the blocks," said Ken Read, a former America's Cup skipper and current NBC Sports analyst. "It's shocking how much technology they had at their disposal and came out so wrong upwind."

Indeed.

For this to be accurate, USA would have been having to sail a higher tack than NZL early, then evened it out, eg USA went from 48 to 46 deg while NZL was at 45 all along upwind. IF for example they were both sailing 47 early and USA dipped to 45 to gain boat speed, USA would need to have 3% speed advantage just to break even. They increased much more than that compared to the early race performances upwind. I didn't see this much disparity on the speeds shown on the graphics so IMO they still must have been sailing a more direct tack at the end.

This boat was modeled and engineered to the utmost accuracy. Software and hydrodynamic design is to such a point that this mistake borders on lunacy. Plus, this is simple trig once speed and angles are known.

So, we have the engineering saying it is wrong, the testing on the water proving it was wrong and thus abandoning the foiling technique upwind, but suddenly down 8-1 it becomes right. I also assume testing and design was based upon with or without spine in various conditions. Oookaaay.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Legal patent versus UK newspaper article. Hmmm ... wonder which one I would believe?

Yea, you do realize that the source is the guy who actually developed the keel, and the newspaper was just the source reporting that primary source information. Hmmm...I guess you believed the "No Positives" stuff too...

Sorry, but the keel was not invented by Lexcen, they just put his name on the patent application because they knew that if they didn't, the boat could not sail. You do realize that is simply a matter of writing the name in the correct spot, right?

Unicorns are back in fashion...

 

[elapid]

Yea, you do realize that the source is the guy who actually developed the keel, and the newspaper was just the source reporting that primary source information. Hmmm...I guess you believed the "No Positives" stuff too...

Sorry, but the keel was not invented by Lexcen, they just put his name on the patent application because they knew that if they didn't, the boat could not sail. You do realize that is simply a matter of writing the name in the correct spot, right?

Unicorns are back in fashion...

Being one of the original 12 on the clinic forum, you know as well as I do that anyone can shout loudly that they developed the winged keel (or to use your analogy, that they didn't dope). But there are patent lawyers who specialize in patents. That's all they do. If the guys in the newspaper article were serious about their claims, then they would be hiring a patent lawyer and setting their version of history right. But they didn't. Wonder why? So you can go back to your unicorns, but I'll believe the patent rather than an unsupported claim in a tabloid while you're chasing fairies around your backyard.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Being one of the original 12 on the clinic forum, you know as well as I do that anyone can shout loudly that they developed the winged keel (or to use your analogy, that they didn't dope). But there are patent lawyers who specialize in patents. That's all they do. If the guys in the newspaper article were serious about their claims, then they would be hiring a patent lawyer and setting their version of history right. But they didn't. Wonder why? So you can go back to your unicorns, but I'll believe the patent rather than an unsupported claim in a tabloid while you're chasing fairies around your backyard.

Dude, I understand the patent process from a legal level, and all you have to do is not get challenged prior. Once it's patented, unringing that bell, especialy when the liar on the patent is dead, is almost impossible and INCREDIBLY expensive. You go back to believing in unicorns and Australia did it all fair. They lied and entered a boat and won. At least Oracle wasn't trying to hide the nationality of their crew.

Those guys who invented the keel were Lexcen's friends. They just figured it was time for the truth to come out.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Lots of American flags for a boat which is only using American gym rats and pay cheques.

The American boat had one American on board and a lot of of Aussies. Kiwi boat was a mixed crew as well though not as much as the the other boat.

This has been going on for years, and several Cup regattas. Why the squawking now? Two Cups ago Spithill was racing for Luna Rossa (the Italians), I believe it was three Cups ago that the Japanese team was filled with mostly members of the New York Yacht Club. Russell Coutts basically just goes to the highest bidder, whomever pays him most. Suisse, US, wherever. Zero loyalty to his nation if you listen to the Kiwi fans. Currently the most top sailors are from NZ and Australia, thus they fill up a lot of winning teams. Years from now this will probably be other countries, and most will still race for whatever "country" they like. This is how it's been for some time, and it's not going to change.

Overall, I'd say this has to be considered one of the most exciting Cups in memory. Many of the races were close, and the cats were thrilling to watch at that speed. This may have also given sailing a needed shot in the arm. Certainly after the 2012 controversy, and 1995, 2000, and 2003 blowouts where one yacht/team was clearly superior to the others.

As to the winged keel, that was an incredible regatta for those who remember. Dennis Conner had brilliantly sailed to a 3-1 lead in a disadvantaged yacht, but failed to secure the win. Very dramatic. Sailing fans may remember his 1987 Louis Vitton cup win to get to the America's Cup finals in five thrilling races, outsailing a superior designed NZ yacht, Kiwi Magic and skipper Chris Dickson - who had gone 37-1 in the round robins, beating Conner twice.

 

[elapid]

This has been going on for years, and several Cup regattas. Why the squawking now? Two Cups ago Spithill was racing for Luna Rossa (the Italians), I believe it was three Cups ago that the Japanese team was filled with mostly members of the New York Yacht Club. Russell Coutts basically just goes to the highest bidder, whomever pays him most. Suisse, US, wherever. Zero loyalty to his nation if you listen to the Kiwi fans. Currently the most top sailors are from NZ and Australia, thus they fill up a lot of winning teams. Years from now this will probably be other countries, and most will still race for whatever "country" they like. This is how it's been for some time, and it's not going to change.

Overall, I'd say this has to be considered one of the most exciting Cups in memory. Many of the races were close, and the cats were thrilling to watch at that speed. This may have also given sailing a needed shot in the arm. Certainly after the 2012 controversy, and 1995, 2000, and 2003 blowouts where one yacht/team was clearly superior to the others.

As to the winged keel, that was an incredible regatta for those who remember. Dennis Conner had brilliantly sailed to a 3-1 lead in a disadvantaged yacht, but failed to secure the win. Very dramatic. Sailing fans may remember his 1987 Louis Vitton cup win to get to the America's Cup finals in five thrilling races, outsailing a superior designed NZ yacht, Kiwi Magic and skipper Chris Dickson - who had gone 37-1 in the round robins, beating Conner twice.

Totally agree. I am not sure why the national teams are still maintained in America's Cups. James Spithill, an Australian, was the skipper for the Italian boat in the 2007 America's Cup and the American boats in the 2003, 2010 and 2013 America's cups. He is obviously the most high profile, but look at Team Oracle USA and they have 8 Kiwis, 7 Australians, 2 Americans, 2 Dutch, 1 Brit, 1 Antiguan, 1 Canadian, 1 Frenchman and 1 Italian. An American company is the sponsor of the team, but that hardly makes it an American national team.

The 1983 America's Cup, which was widely regarded as one of the best comebacks in sport's history until Oracle Team USA's comeback in 2013, was a defining moment for Australians. We all watched as a nation united, commiserating and then celebrating as the longest streak (132 years) in sports history was finally broken. Our prime minister, obviously drunk, proudly announced on public TV that any boss who sacked a worker for not turning up that day was a bum (See 6:00 at www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFw7iIvCFpo). I still have the newspaper clippings and official books from the 1983 America's Cup. Still brings goose bumps.

 

[The Hitch]

This is how *** the sports section of the media is these days.

Fernando Alonso said something about how he wants to come back like the Americans (of which the Briton Ben Ainsle was a part) did in the Americas cup.

Here is how a British newspaper (the bestselling non porn newspaper in the country) interprets that comment.

Fernando Alonso turns to Sir Ben Ainslie for inspiration

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...ie-for-inspiration-as-typhoon-fears-ease.html