Amgen Tour of California 2019, May 12-18

[Koronin]

Opppptimism! (Yes, with four p's.)

I appreciate your optimism. I'd like to see it come back as I always enjoyed it.

Right now I'm going to hope the new one day race in Maryland works out as a prep race for the 2 Canadian WT races.

 

[Leinster]

Aesthetically, a race starting in New England and finishing in Pittsburgh area (I'd love to see the pro-riders tackle Canton Avenue!) would be an improvement. Especially if you pass the historical monuments dating back to the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. You don't have the big mountain passes but there are some difficult hills and older routes you could use.

I've been to California a couple of times. It's an amazing experience. But watching the peloton on wide roads in arid areas is monotonous as hell.

A Fall race in New England/Upstate NY/PA area post-or-during Vuelta would/could be great.

California is far from being all broad boulevards and beach boardwalks. We’ve plenty of goat-tracks up here in Wine Country. Same in all the high mountain ranges.

I always held out hope that the ToC could get big enough and secure enough in its spot on the calendar to start taking some Grand-Tour-like liberties with its start cities and venture outside the state. Vegas, Phoenix or Medford to start with, Seattle or Denver being a bit ambitious, and ultimately crazy enough to do Tijuana, Vancouver or Hawaii. Having air transfers and even rest days in a 1-week stage race sounds crazy, but I think there’s a huge geographical (and let’s be direct here, economic) area that is underserved by the “World” Tour.

 

[Tonton]

Amgen should be banned per forum rules .

I live in Virginia and may be biased, but after all there's a history of racing here and a big fan base. Richmond WRRC drew attention, but the real fans are inland. I'm surrounded by riders; four of them riding at 5 am when I was driving to work this morning...in the rain. Week-ends are a bike fest, even one dude with a Ti-Raleigh kit. And the clone of Simon Yates who dropped me on the way back from Rockfish Gap (nice climb, 5 km at 7% or so). Virginia is a Jura-like place, with one big climb, Wintergreen, very AdH in profile (Tour de Trump - no kidding - see YouTube Greg leMond winning there), close to DC/Dulles Airport, less jet lag, why not?

 

[Chris Gadsden]

A Fall race in New England/Upstate NY/PA area post-or-during Vuelta would/could be great.

California is far from being all broad boulevards and beach boardwalks. We’ve plenty of goat-tracks up here in Wine Country. Same in all the high mountain ranges.

I always held out hope that the ToC could get big enough and secure enough in its spot on the calendar to start taking some Grand-Tour-like liberties with its start cities and venture outside the state. Vegas, Phoenix or Medford to start with, Seattle or Denver being a bit ambitious, and ultimately crazy enough to do Tijuana, Vancouver or Hawaii. Having air transfers and even rest days in a 1-week stage race sounds crazy, but I think there’s a huge geographical (and let’s be direct here, economic) area that is underserved by the “World” Tour.

Good post.... but

I think JV is correct on this one. Something dramatic will have to change in the US. As an example; this year the stage to Morro Bay was much later than was anticipated due to a pretty severe head wind for most of the day. I had the opportunity to be near the finish line (not far from where TeeJay crashed) and after the stage stay in a nearby town called Cambria.

All I heard from the non-sports people was how this <expletive> bike raced shut down roads for hours and hours... and what a general pain in the backside it was to deal with the "monumental" inconvenience and on and on. That sentiment was both in Morro Bay as well as in Cambria later that evening at a restaurant. It's as if the bike race coming through town was the single worst thing that's happened to them in a great while.

 

[Koronin]

Amgen should be banned per forum rules .

I live in Virginia and may be biased, but after all there's a history of racing here and a big fan base. Richmond WRRC drew attention, but the real fans are inland. I'm surrounded by riders; four of them riding at 5 am when I was driving to work this morning...in the rain. Week-ends are a bike fest, even one dude with a Ti-Raleigh kit. And the clone of Simon Yates who dropped me on the way back from Rockfish Gap (nice climb, 5 km at 7% or so). Virginia is a Jura-like place, with one big climb, Wintergreen, very AdH in profile (Tour de Trump - no kidding - see YouTube Greg leMond winning there), close to DC/Dulles Airport, less jet lag, why not?

I'd go for VA having a race. We could actually go to that. Richmond is about a 4 hour drive. If I remember correctly a group did try to get a race in VA after the Worlds and nothing ever came of it.

 

[Nacho]

It seems to me there are 2 separate issues here that should be considered:

1). Females encroaching on and in and using male sports activities to augment their bit of money and glory;

2). The relatively untalked about issue of males, or physically similar, encroaching on and in and using female sports activities to augment their bit of money and glory.

The issue of males encroaching on female sports may not be a problem much in Europe, but it is getting big in the USA. From high school on into professional sports, it is becoming quite an issue, and is becoming more vocal. And the professional part issue is mostly apparent in bicycling. Now this is not a stated issue with the ToC cancellation announcement, but with the "woke" Californians and all, it won't stay behinds the scene for very long -- it will probably surface as a big issue before the ToC resumes.

So, I say get it all out in the open. If the gender issue is not a big issue and all participants should be considered the same, then let all males and females and other gender composites compete together in the same race. No need to put on 2 separate races, and have two separate prize schedules to fund. Do it all as one. Take the issues out -- of the females that think they are equal and should be paid equal to males, and the males that think they should be allowed to compete as females.

Though, I'm hoping to get these issues resolved, with some separation between males and females, and letting the market dictate the glory and prize schedules.

 

[Mayomaniac]

A Fall race in New England/Upstate NY/PA area post-or-during Vuelta would/could be great.

California is far from being all broad boulevards and beach boardwalks. We’ve plenty of goat-tracks up here in Wine Country. Same in all the high mountain ranges.

I always held out hope that the ToC could get big enough and secure enough in its spot on the calendar to start taking some Grand-Tour-like liberties with its start cities and venture outside the state. Vegas, Phoenix or Medford to start with, Seattle or Denver being a bit ambitious, and ultimately crazy enough to do Tijuana, Vancouver or Hawaii. Having air transfers and even rest days in a 1-week stage race sounds crazy, but I think there’s a huge geographical (and let’s be direct here, economic) area that is underserved by the “World” Tour.

I like the idea of a Fall race in New England/Upstate NY/PA , maybe it could be 1 or 2 one day races before or after the Canadian classics when there's already a strong field in North America.

I also wouldn't mind something a bit more experimental, a series of hillclimbs with mass start in the northeast. Maybe Mount Washington, Mt. Equinox and Whiteface mountain, just to name a few of the bigger names. It wouldn't be super expensive to organize and to close the roads and a few big cycling related companies that are based in the US should have an interest in having a race there.

I think overall the lack of an American top rider is what is hurting American cycling today, but a smaller race like the Tour of Utah seems to have found it's place on the calender and gets nothing but love form the hardcore fans.
Perhaps US-cycling needs more smaller races like Utah instead of really big and ambitious projects at this time.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It seems to me there are 2 separate issues here that should be considered:

1). Females encroaching on and in and using male sports activities to augment their bit of money and glory;

2). The relatively untalked about issue of males, or physically similar, encroaching on and in and using female sports activities to augment their bit of money and glory.

The issue of males encroaching on female sports may not be a problem much in Europe, but it is getting big in the USA. From high school on into professional sports, it is becoming quite an issue, and is becoming more vocal. And the professional part issue is mostly apparent in bicycling. Now this is not a stated issue with the ToC cancellation announcement, but with the "woke" Californians and all, it won't stay behinds the scene for very long -- it will probably surface as a big issue before the ToC resumes.

So, I say get it all out in the open. If the gender issue is not a big issue and all participants should be considered the same, then let all males and females and other gender composites compete together in the same race. No need to put on 2 separate races, and have two separate prize schedules to fund. Do it all as one. Take the issues out -- of the females that think they are equal and should be paid equal to males, and the males that think they should be allowed to compete as females.

Though, I'm hoping to get these issues resolved, with some separation between males and females, and letting the market dictate the glory and prize schedules.

Just what the thread needed, some crank talking about his bigoted hobby horses.

 

[RedheadDane]

1). Females encroaching on and in and using male sports activities to augment their bit of money and glory;

Uhm… I don't know how to break this to you, but there is no male sport or female sport.

 

[Nacho]

Just what the thread needed, some crank talking about his bigoted hobby horses.

There are issues there that I brought up. Rather than posting adhom stuff, why not address those issues.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Uhm… I don't know how to break this to you, but there is no male sport or female sport.

Well, there are still some archaic divides though where sports are competed for by men only or by women only, and true mixed gender games like Korfball are few in number and small in audience. I think one of the last such divides was crossed recently when the previously men-only Nordic Combined opened up to women, though most of its competitors are teenagers at this stage as women's ski jumping is still in its infancy at the pro level. Tara Geraghty-Moats basically annihilates everybody at the moment, since she started out as a biathlete so has plenty of cross-country skills, then became a ski jumper.

 

[Nacho]

Uhm… I don't know how to break this to you, but there is no male sport or female sport.

So you want to argue semantics? Is that what you are doing? You don't see any issues there? Exactly how would you deal with female VS male involvement in the same sport?

 

[Nacho]

Well, there are still some archaic divides though where sports are competed for by men only or by women only, and true mixed gender games like Korfball are few in number and small in audience. I think one of the last such divides was crossed recently when the previously men-only Nordic Combined opened up to women, though most of its competitors are teenagers at this stage as women's ski jumping is still in its infancy at the pro level. Tara Geraghty-Moats basically annihilates everybody at the moment, since she started out as a biathlete so has plenty of cross-country skills, then became a ski jumper.

Thanks for taking this seriously.

Are they raced together, in the same race with the same expectations?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

There are issues there that I brought up. Rather than posting adhom stuff, why not address those issues.

Because those issues have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

 

[RedheadDane]

So you want to argue semantics? Is that what you are doing? You don't see any issues there? Exactly how would you deal with female VS male involvement in the same sport?

You were the one using the term "male sport".
I'm not talking about competing directly against each other (though other sports technically have that, with mixed doubles and stuff, and I think in some types of sailing the crews can be simply who's good at sailing). I meant that everybody can do every sport.
Not literally, though. I can't do shot putting, believe me; I've tried… but there are females doing it.
Likewise, there are professional female cyclists who are, quite good. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have a race as challenging and exciting (and televised) as the men?

 

[Nacho]

You were the one using the term "male sport".
I'm not talking about competing directly against each other (though other sports technically have that, with mixed doubles and stuff, and I think in some types of sailing the crews can be simply who's good at sailing). I meant that everybody can do every sport.
Not literally, though. I can't do shot putting, believe me; I've tried… but there are females doing it.
Likewise, there are professional female cyclists who are, quite good. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have a race as challenging and exciting (and televised) as the men?

I say they should be able to have those same races, "as challenging and exciting (and televised) as the men" -- but the market should decide that. If you are saying that they ought to be paid the same -- that they are equal -- with no market considerations -- then why can't the compete with each other?

 

[Nacho]

Because those issues have nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

The issue of a separate race and the viability of separate races was brought up previously, in this same thread.

 

[RedheadDane]

I say they should be able to have those same races, "as challenging and exciting (and televised) as the men" -- but the market should decide that. If you are saying that they ought to be paid the same -- that they are equal -- with no market considerations -- then why can't the compete with each other?

We are quite a lot of people who'd love to have more women's cycling televised. But the "logic" for not televising it is that "Nobody is watching it."
NO! Of course not. Cause it's not *** televised!

 

[Nacho]

We are quite a lot of people who'd love to have more women's cycling televised. But the "logic" for not televising it is that "Nobody is watching it."
NO! Of course not. Cause it's not *** televised!

There we are at the heart of it. Who will pay for that extra televising? Will the market bear that? If it will, I'm all for it. I don't think the persons doing the televising are going to go out on a limb not knowing if they can make money on it.

And, what about the "sexism" issue? Do you think keeping separate male VS female races are what should be done (I do). And what about the transgender issue -- how it should fit in. There are female athletics being vocal about this already.

 

[Koronin]

In the US we barely have any men's cycling on TV. This is the entire list of races that are shown on TV (live or tape delayed) are: Paris-Nice, Paris-Roubiax, Fleche Wallonne, LBL, Dauphine, Tour de France, Vuelta a Espana, Worlds. Nothing else is on TV. Now you can eliminate California from the TV list and it will not be replaced with another race.

There are very few women who could attempt to race in the men's peloton and they'd not be able to win. There are a few women who are on women's teams that also have men's teams and they've said they can barely hold on to the wheel when doing TTT practice and can't follow hard attacks.

 

[Nacho]

In the US we barely have any men's cycling on TV. This is the entire list of races that are shown on TV (live or tape delayed) are: Paris-Nice, Paris-Roubiax, Fleche Wallonne, LBL, Dauphine, Tour de France, Vuelta a Espana, Worlds. Nothing else is on TV. Now you can eliminate California from the TV list and it will not be replaced with another race.

There are very few women who could attempt to race in the men's peloton and they'd not be able to win. There are a few women who are on women's teams that also have men's teams and they've said they can barely hold on to the wheel when doing TTT practice and can't follow hard attacks.

Good points. And BTW, I was being facetious when I said the solution might be to have all genders compete together (not withstanding what Libertine Seguros posted, of which I would like to hear more). I think though an expectation that there should be equal pay/television time for both females and males is unrealistic. But certainly, I want to watch more races regardless, if I don't have to pay more. And I don't expect that to happen.

In risk of being seen more sexist than I more than likely already seen as -- the (male) races we have now and the money in those didn't happen overnight, but took many years, up to 100 years or more, and many accomplishments. Who got paid very much in the first TDF?

Back to the topic, I'm not surprised the ToC is taking a year off. I've always thought the race wasn't viable long term, and especially as the organizers tried to project it, as America's Race. It is too short -- too boring -- too choppy (it moves over the breadth of California too much) -- visits the same places each year -- CA in my estimate is an ugly place and too dry (as opposed to France in the summer). I would much rather watch any race in Europe.

 

[Tonton]

My $0.02 (although that whole discussion is off-topic).

Yes, TV ratings and money are guiding decisions made as it relates to what's on TV and what is not. The easy way is to feed the masses with what works, what they already know and like, like NFL football in the US or Football/Soccer in the rest of the World. Add part-time sports like the ones at the Olympic Games, and here you go.

Yes, the decision-makers would put anything on TV that makes them money...provided that it's aligned with their beliefs or culture. That part is questionable.

Cable TV took a chance putting MMA on TV when the decision makers on the networks and main channels were poo-pooing due to...beliefs, fear of backlash from part of the public, politics, including boxing trying to keep its fighting business monopoly. Conclusion: you don't know if you don't try, and if you try, try big.

Triathlon: no one looked at Paula Newby-Fraser as less of a champion than Mark Allen. Mixing genders in cycling, following or adapting the triathlon model is intriguing. Equal prizes, YES!

Nacho, I don't quite understand what points you are trying to make, but the whole thing smells bad.

 

[movingtarget]

Pro cycling in the USA seems to be at the crossroads. The demise of previously dominant US teams and other quite successful ones like BMC has obviously had an effect. The end of the BMC development team before the pro tour team wasn't a good sign. But I am sure that other countries are also struggling, according to the amount of races that have disappeared from the calendar, some well established and prestigeous. It has also been noticeable in Spain and Italy, two of the stalwarts of pro cycling. I still don't think the sport has fully recovered from the scandals of the past twenty years and probably never will. Some sponsors have probably been scared off permanently not to mention the drop in TV time many countries give the sport now. No surprise that the organizers of the three grand tours are always scrambling to refresh their profile and keep viewers watching. I think the chipping away of traditional stage racing formats will continue and a shorter format and the enhanced use of technology will be a given in a bid to retain viewers.

 

[Tonton]

In the US we barely have any men's cycling on TV. This is the entire list of races that are shown on TV (live or tape delayed) are: Paris-Nice, Paris-Roubiax, Fleche Wallonne, LBL, Dauphine, Tour de France, Vuelta a Espana, Worlds. Nothing else is on TV. Now you can eliminate California from the TV list and it will not be replaced with another race.

There are very few women who could attempt to race in the men's peloton and they'd not be able to win. There are a few women who are on women's teams that also have men's teams and they've said they can barely hold on to the wheel when doing TTT practice and can't follow hard attacks.

I was nurturing my post and got out-posted by you.

In a triathlon-like model, it's two races within the race. Not about the overall win, but in the process some dudes will eat humble-pie. Longo, Vos and the likes could and can kick a$$. And I bet the women level would rise due to the competition and make them even better.

Maybe wrong. Maybe right.

 

[Nacho]

Nacho, I don't quite understand what points you are trying to make, but the whole thing smells bad.

I guess my main point is that the expectations of the female cyclists wanting exact same pay and television time is out-of-bounds, realistically. Even noting the new sports you mention, i.e. MMA, it didn't happen over night. It took years of marketing and poor attendance to get there. It didn't mature because there were participants in the sport saying they deserved equal pay/attendance to some other sport (for instance NBA). It matured because they had a product that people wanted to buy -- OVER TIME. My whole point is what I said in the first post --let the market decide.