Andreas Kloden's Final Bid For Another Coveted Top 10 Tour Finish, 'Official' Thread

[gregrowlerson]

Yeah but who was doing more work for their team? Klodi or Nibali?

Fair point. Though I don't know if Klodi did as much work as some on these boards seem to think. His best work was done on Verbier, when he helped Lance a great deal. On Venteoux I thought it was a great effort from him to come to the front and work for a while after being dropped (and then he was inevitably dropped again). But on Arcalis he only worked for about a km before losing time. And on the Queen stage he did no work on Romme or Columbierre before his teammate did the worst thing since the Holocaust () and attacked him. I would have loved Klodi to have gotten onto the podium, but 6th was still okay for him that year.

I suppose the question is, did the small amount of work that Andreas did cost him a podium spot? This has to be weighed up against Armstrong and Wiggins who solely rode for themselves and F Schleck (who did ride a little for his brother - very much so on Romme-Columbierre if I remember correctly). Maybe without any team work it would have been Contador then Andy then Frank then Andreas...

 

[SHAD0W93]

Fair point. Though I don't know if Klodi did as much work as some on these boards seem to think. His best work was done on Verbier, when he helped Lance a great deal. On Venteoux I thought it was a great effort from him to come to the front and work for a while after being dropped (and then he was inevitably dropped again). But on Arcalis he only worked for about a km before losing time. And on the Queen stage he did no work on Romme or Columbierre before his teammate did the worst thing since the Holocaust () and attacked him. I would have loved Klodi to have gotten onto the podium, but 6th was still okay for him that year.

I suppose the question is, did the small amount of work that Andreas did cost him a podium spot? This has to be weighed up against Armstrong and Wiggins who solely rode for themselves and F Schleck (who did ride a little for his brother - very much so on Romme-Columbierre if I remember correctly). Maybe without any team work it would have been Contador then Andy then Frank then Andreas...

I think he did at least a little work for the team each stage. I think he could have got podium if Lance had decided that, I don't know,he should support the people that are stronger than you. I think on the team leadership should have been Contador, than Levi and Klodi, Popo, than Armstrong .

I think it cost him espically when he got dropped by Contador because I think he went from podium challenger to super-domestique for the last few stages. I don't think the Schlecks would have been 2 and 5 without Contador's attack. But who is to say Kloden would not have been dropped closer to the finish.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I think he did at least a little work for the team each stage. I think he could have got podium if Lance had decided that, I don't know,he should support the people that are stronger than you. I think on the team leadership should have been Contador, than Levi and Klodi, Popo, than Armstrong .

I think it cost him espically when he got dropped by Contador because I think he went from podium challenger to super-domestique for the last few stages. I don't think the Schlecks would have been 2 and 5 without Contador's attack. But who is to say Kloden would not have been dropped closer to the finish.

Popo stronger than Armstrong

Levi would have been up there if he hadn't crashed out. Astana would have had 4 riders in the top 8 which would have been truly amazing.

Kloden was so poor on that descent that maybe he would have got dropped on that even if he had made it to the top of the Columbierre with the 3 heads of state? I think that he completely bonked unfortunately.

It has often been said that the parcours of '09 was soft, and I agree in one aspect. The 3 MTF's each just had the one big climb on the stage - like the Vuelta

But take away one of these and insert one of the 4 MTF's from this year and it would have been okay.

 

[Nick C.]

Kloden was so poor on that descent that maybe he would have got dropped on that even if he had made it to the top of the Columbierre with the 3 heads of state? I think that he completely bonked unfortunately.

Was Klodi that bad or once he got dropped was he now under orders to sit up wait for Lance and then goet to the front?

 

[airstream]

I started following cycling during TdF'04. The first impression is unforgettable and since then I'm Klodi fan. I Believe, he can get to top-5, at least, of course if he will do well on first MTF and confirm his this season TT capacities. Kloden is a superb rider, classy, very smart and tactically literate. I don't consider him to be a bid talent, but having a good form this guy shows 110%. He distributes his efforts ideally, always knows where his limit is and exactly when necessary to drop himself purposely to lose as few as possible. It's amazing quality for all-rounder. I appreciate this very much. So that.. if they will go in the mountains as actively as they did this year, everything is possible, given how strong Andreas can be at TT.
Plus we all remember Klodi adores to start the Tour being 2nd or 3rd captain. It always excites him.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Was Klodi that bad or once he got dropped was he now under orders to sit up wait for Lance and then goet to the front?

I don't think so. Did you see Klodi finish that stage? If not, it was probably because he was too tired to even hold the wheels of Lance and Vicenzo and slipped out of the frame!

He was a broken man unfortunately.

 

[greenedge]

Plus we all remember Klodi adores to start the Tour being 2nd or 3rd captain. It always excites him.

Just like Rogers, though Klodi has a better palmares.

 

[Angliru]

Yeah but who was doing more work for their team? Klodi or Nibali?

In Kloden's defense he was riding in support of a strugglling Armstrong on Verbier, and likley could have finished higher if not for that fact. He even distance Armstrong at the line, probably unintentionally.

 

[Angliru]

Just like Rogers, though Klodi has a better palmares.

Absolutely no comparison especially in the grand tours. Rogers problem is that he took a while finding his niche, chasing grand tour success when ultimately he was better suited to week long stage races.

 

[airstream]

In Kloden's defense he was riding in support of a strugglling Armstrong on Verbier, and likley could have finished higher if not for that fact. He even distance Armstrong at the line, probably unintentionally.

In addition he had a chunk of team work on the Arcalis as well, that made him lose even more.

 

[gregrowlerson]

In addition he had a chunk of team work on the Arcalis as well, that made him lose even more.

I have done a little more pondering about the Kloden, could he have finished higher at the '09 TDF debate.

If being 'rightfully' put higher in the team pecking order than Armstrong?!

I've decided that yes, Andreas was stronger than Lance in that Tour. He was stronger against the clock, and he was able to go with the three best climbers in the race on arguably the Tours toughest climb, the Col de Romme; whereas Armstrong, despite preferential team treatment, could certainly not go with the Schleck brothers. This means that no matter what tactics Bruyneel employed, Lance could not finish ahead of Andy in that Tour.

But could Astana still have enjoyed a 1-2?

Or even a 1-2-3 if Levi had not crashed out (It could be argued that Leipheimer was about as strong as Kloden in the race)?

What this boils down to is could Kloden have stayed with the Schlecks on stage 17 if he hadn't done earlier domestique work in the race? And how close could have he kept to Andy on Venteoux? There is no doubt that time would have been put into Kloden there, though he may have been a little stronger than he was, again given the removal of domestique duties.

On stage 1 Andreas put a handy 38 seconds into Andy. Another 40 seconds were picked up on the stage 4 TTT. But then on stage 7 Klodi lost 23 seconds to Andy. I will say that if he didn't have to do that little bit of work at the front (into the wind) that he loses 13 seconds instead.

The next differential comes on stage 15, where Kloden (doing a lot of work for Armstrong) lost 46 seconds. Without doing so much work I will say that Klodi finishers with Cadel Evans, which is only 3 seconds further up the road, but the argument is that he has more energy to hang on for the duration of stage 17.

On stage 18 Andreas picked up 51 seconds in the long ITT, not a particularly great result (one of many results that highlights that Andy Schleck is not too bad in ITT's at the end of a TDF, so may still be able to push for another podium in 2012). But anyway, all of these hypothetical outcomes would lead to him having a 1:13 advantage going onto Mont Venteoux.

I guess that he just loses more than that (Andy was far stronger and would ride hard all the way up, but they rode into the wind and that may have taken some toll on him), but it would have been interesting.

This is the ultimate Klodi fanboy thread, where anything Andreas can be discussed, particularly during the off season

 

[gregrowlerson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Cp5P5Oy-k

The above is a half decent link to a JB pep talk before stage 6 of this years TDF.

Unfortunately they didn't listen to his demand to "stay out of trouble!"

But I like it when he refers to Klodi as a sprinter

 

[El Pistolero]

Just like Rogers, though Klodi has a better palmares.

Wouldn't be sure about that...

 

[airstream]

If being 'rightfully' put higher in the team pecking order than Armstrong?!

Kloden could fairly have podiumed in this case. For me, it comes down exceptionally to Contador's attack on Col du Romme. What he did that? Just to show he was faster than the Schlecks after having sat 30km on their wheels? That idiotic inappropriate bluster cost Kloden the 3rd place. Contador cooked up a justification then. Klodi didn't allegedly mind if he attacked. I read after that stage at the team briefing Bryuneel bawled him out for the move and Contador really cried. I'm glad that he was punished at least that way. Luckily, Kloden is a very smart guy and he could accept that philosophically. Certainly the entire cycling community needed Armstrong's podium much more than Kloden's one and it affected on Andreas in no ways.

 

[El Pistolero]

Kloden could fairly have podiumed in this case. For me, it comes down exceptionally to Contador's attack on Col du Romme. What he did that? Just to show he was faster than the Schlecks after having sat 30km on their wheels? That idiotic inappropriate bluster cost Kloden the 3rd place. Contador cooked up a justification then. Klodi didn't allegedly mind if he attacked. I read after that stage at the team briefing Bryuneel bawled him out for the move and Contador really cried. I'm glad that he was punished at least that way. Luckily, Kloden is a very smart guy and he could accept that philosophically. Certainly the entire cycling community needed Armstrong's podium much more than Kloden's one and it affected on Andreas in no ways.

Klöden sucked on that stage, he was always going to bonk as evidenced in Armstrong catching him. I really don't get why people are still talking about that incident. Contador owed Klöden nothing and he deserved to be dropped. Contador is no fool and why would he take risks and not drop Klöden who could do a good time trial? He even asked Kloden if he could attack and he said yes. Don't be so sour.

 

[airstream]

Klöden sucked on that stage, he was always going to bonk as evidenced in Armstrong catching him. I really don't get why people are still talking about that incident. Contador owed Klöden nothing and he deserved to be dropped. Contador is no fool and why would he take risks and not drop Klöden who could do a good time trial? He even asked Kloden if he could attack and he said yes. Don't be so sour.

Deserved to be dropped? lol. Its impossible discuss Contador with you. Probably, if somebody writes something not very good about him, you'll feel it even sleeping and rush to respond.

 

[Havetts]

It is beyond me why everyone keeps discussing Contador & Gilbert when señor El P. enters any thread .

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

poor Kloden... will never get his gt

 

[El Pistolero]

Deserved to be dropped? lol. Its impossible discuss Contador with you. Probably, if somebody writes something not very good about him, you'll feel it even sleeping and rush to respond.

Yeah, when you drop because the pace is too fast you deserve to be dropped. This is competitive cycling for crying out loud. Of course in your world of not attacking the yellow jersey as an unwritten rule of cycling no attacking is ever allowed and Cancellara wins the Tour by default.

Who's fault is it that Klöden got dropped? He only has to look at him self.

 

[The Hitch]

It is beyond me why everyone keeps discussing Contador & Gilbert when señor El P. enters any thread .

Not true. Often when El P enters threads the conversation shifts to Cavendish, Andy Schleck or Valverde.

How much they suck

 

[El Pistolero]

Not true. Often when El P enters threads the conversation shifts to Cavendish, Andy Schleck or Valverde.

How much they suck

Valverde doesn't suck. Unless you count the wheel in front of him

 

[McLovin]

It is beyond me why everyone keeps discussing Contador & Gilbert when señor El P. enters any thread .

he'll be just fine when he will turn 15. someday he will realise what an inlove school girl was when he was a kid.

 

[AngusW]

<snip>

Certainly the entire cycling community needed Armstrong's podium much more than Kloden's one and it affected on Andreas in no ways.

Why do you believe this?

 

[airstream]

Why do you believe this?

Because it symbolized a real confirmed with the result Armstrong's comeback that was very important for this sport, considering a dark cloud of doping suspicion over him. LA and Kloden's contributions in cycling are completely immeasurable.

 

[AngusW]

Because it symbolized a real confirmed with the result Armstrong's comeback that was very important for this sport, considering a dark cloud of doping suspicion over him. LA and Kloden's contributions in cycling are completely immeasurable.

You haven't actually said why it was more important for the cycling community that Armstrong rather than Kloden finished on the 2009 Tour de France podium. I still don't understand why it is important to the cycling community (of which I am a part) for Armstrong to finish on the podium. Please explain.