Andrew McQuaid accusses LeMond

[Hugh Januss]

That argument would convince a reasonable person.

Unfortunately for him we clinic dwellers are anything but reasonable.

 

[TubularBills]

That argument would convince a reasonable person.

i.e. The evolution of Omerta.

Absolved by the 'honesty' of infinite powers?

Good call...

You are 'bright?'

Envision logic?

~ Sir wanna-be bright.

 

[86TDFWinner]

There is zero evidence of blood doping in GT's in the 80's. Let us know if you find any

That's just it, he can't. He's been asked over a dozen times to provide info on anything he's claimed & he has yet to do so. He's also been asked atleast 5 times(now 6) to please post the info on Hinault doping(when/where/by whom) & also his info when he was supposedly a pro rider on tour. He's alluded to it, but has yet to post anything at all on it.


Like you(& MANY OTHERS) have said: he's got nothing.

 

[poupou]

Albatros, the return of a multiple banned member.

Even if birds are my friends,please, could we cut the wings of this one?

 

[Albatros]

I have asked you fanboys to provide a single reason for not blood doping in the 80's . Just one. Of course nobody comes with any.

You don't need to have evidence to know certain things are happening. They are just logically happening.

I can even change the question. Why is it that it took 30 years to doping doctors to realise that blood doping could work in cycling too, when work by Conconi and others had proven that it was an important boost in endurance sports and moreover, undetectable.

 

[Albatros]

That's just it, he can't. He's been asked over a dozen times to provide info on anything he's claimed & he has yet to do so. He's also been asked atleast 5 times(now 6) to please post the info on Hinault doping(when/where/by whom) & also his info when he was supposedly a pro rider on tour. He's alluded to it, but has yet to post anything at all on it.


Like you(& MANY OTHERS) have said: he's got nothing.

Hinault didn't want to pass an antidoping test. Hinault defended the use of fortifiers (euphemistic term for doping). He is old school, he tells you he doped without saying so.

Or do you need him to win clean to give credibility to your boy? Sorry, your boy is on the same page as the rest. The difference is that your boy is an attention ***** who can not come to terms that he cheated like the rest.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I can even change the question. Why is it that it took 30 years to doping doctors to realise that blood doping could work in cycling too, when work by Conconi and others had proven that it was an important boost in endurance sports and moreover, undetectable.

Did Conconi use blood doping in any multi-stage races? Or were they all for single day or indoor velodrome (Moser's hour) efforts? Doping up with blood the morning or afternoon of your effort is a far different kettle of fish vs storing and transporting blood safely in the middle of summer.

What were the portable cooling devices like at the time - keeping in mind blood should be kept at around 4C or colder?
Where would the blood be stored for up to 2 weeks at a time before being transported to the riders?

I believe RaceRadio and others have already mentioned these pertinent logistical concerns regarding your theory that blood doping was actionable for multi-stage events.

If you can more clearly define the time period in question, perhaps we can investigate the apparatus available at that time so as to validate or at least shed some light on the validity of your theory?

The other factor is blood withdrawal protocol. A rider racing a lot would be struggling to withdraw blood and race anywhere near their expected capacity. It takes 2-3 weeks to fully restore a blood withdrawal - and without epo you can't fast track that.

So you need 2-3 blood withdrawal windows of 2-3 weeks each around pre-Tour races.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It does seem strange that Kimmage (Rough Ride) so readily mentions amphetamines, etc, in jersey pockets or in hotel rooms, yet excludes all mention of the blood doping you claim was going on.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Check my posts before calling me a fan too, btw. I'm happy to kick any tyre, and pedestalise none.

 

[Grandillusion]

This is funny - good entertainment with the Albatros.

My (worthless) contribution as a total neophyte, knowing absolutely nothing about the science or much technically about cycling at all:

If Greg LeMond is lying in the interviews and lectures I've watched posted up on Youtube etc. then he's the best actor in history.

The gut exudes total integrity & honesty to me & seems a totally "standup' guy.

Worthless I know, but all the evidence I need. And being American and all, if Travis & the USADA guys had a whiff of suspicion of him surely they'd be on his case without mercy too?

Come on Albatros - there's more to go on than the speculation you've been spouting.

 

[MarkvW]

Hinault didn't want to pass an antidoping test. Hinault defended the use of fortifiers (euphemistic term for doping). He is old school, he tells you he doped without saying so.

Or do you need him to win clean to give credibility to your boy? Sorry, your boy is on the same page as the rest. The difference is that your boy is an attention ***** who can not come to terms that he cheated like the rest.

Are you now abandoning your blood doping theory?

 

[Hugh Januss]

I have asked you fanboys to provide a single reason for not blood doping in the 80's . Just one. Of course nobody comes with any.

You don't need to have evidence to know certain things are happening. They are just logically happening.

I can even change the question. Why is it that it took 30 years to doping doctors to realise that blood doping could work in cycling too, when work by Conconi and others had proven that it was an important boost in endurance sports and moreover, undetectable.

Well other than the difficulty in handling and storing the blood (made much easier these days, with much better and smaller refrigeration equipment) there is the single overwhelming fact that without EPO the athlete spends too much time in a weakened state after giving blood. Either they can't give enough over the course of the year or they can't train and race hard enough. Also in the 80's nobody could afford to race only one race a year, they raced hard all season, no time to donate and much too much demand for blood bags. Merckx would have needed 20 BBs to have the kind of seasons he had if he was blood doping to win.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Hinault didn't want to pass an antidoping test. Hinault defended the use of fortifiers (euphemistic term for doping). He is old school, he tells you he doped without saying so.

Or do you need him to win clean to give credibility to your boy? Sorry, your boy is on the same page as the rest. The difference is that your boy is an attention ***** who can not come to terms that he cheated like the rest.

This is all hearsay, you still havent posted ANY proof of which you've been asked about(this will be 7 times alone for Hinault-still having trouble finding something on Lemond?), if you have said proof, please post it.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Are you now abandoning your blood doping theory?

I believe he is.....his M.O. is to just babble on about stuff he has no more knowledge of than amyone else here. He's been called out numerous times by various posters asking for said proof to back up anything he's said, and as of this moment, still hasn't. Yet, he wonders why no one here takes anything he says serious. I'm done asking him, as I know he just doesn't have any proof on ANYTHING he's said here.

 

[autologous]

I believe he is.....his M.O. is to just babble on about stuff he has no more knowledge of than amyone else here.

And how is this any different to what you do here?

 

[86TDFWinner]

And how is this any different to what you do here?

Well, Im not coming on here, claiming daily that so and so definitely doped, then provide no proof of it. Im simply asking him(as others have, as they too wonder where he's getting his info from, make such ridiculous claims) to provide the necassary documentation that backs up his claims. I would just like to have the proof either way posted, so we can all read it and go forth. Asking for him to post proof is in no way similar to what he's doing. I don't come on here claiming Lance doped, we all know he has because of years of denial, and evidence thats been released through the years.

Albatros also seemed to allude to him being some sort of pro rider, as he's gone on at length to describe supposed inter mertings he(and only he apparently) was privy to back in the day. I've also asked him to please post any evidence back up that claim as well, and he has not. Go back and look through this thread, MANY here have questioned his statements. I see nothing wrong with him posting the info requested.

 

[runninboy]

As was mentioned the technology available at the time in the 1980's to facilitate blood doping was pretty much nonexistent. Think about this as it puts it all in perspective at least to me. Greg Lemond mentioned once about how they used to sleep in the hallways on hot nights as alot of the hotels in the Tour did not even have air conditioning.
Now in hindsight someone believes that although riders were suffering with a lack of air conditioning , that somehow they magically had the capability to properly refrigerate blood.

Even today those little dorm room refrigerators you find in hotels would not be able to store blood as they have too large of temperature swing. I know this from personal experience with insulin.

However we are supposed to believe that hotels that did not even have air at the time would magically have medical grade refrigerators in each room.
Or maybe the teams carried their own from hotel to hotel with a really long extension cord.
that must be it!

 

[silverrocket]

As was mentioned the technology available at the time in the 1980's to facilitate blood doping was pretty much nonexistent. Think about this as it puts it all in perspective at least to me. Greg Lemond mentioned once about how they used to sleep in the hallways on hot nights as alot of the hotels in the Tour did not even have air conditioning.
Now in hindsight someone believes that although riders were suffering with a lack of air conditioning , that somehow they magically had the capability to properly refrigerate blood.

Even today those little dorm room refrigerators you find in hotels would not be able to store blood as they have too large of temperature swing. I know this from personal experience with insulin.

However we are supposed to believe that hotels that did not even have air at the time would magically have medical grade refrigerators in each room.
Or maybe the teams carried their own from hotel to hotel with a really long extension cord.
that must be it!

The USA cycling team in 1984 was poorly funded, yet was still able to blood dope at the 1984 Olympics.

Also, at least 2-3 recent rider/mechanic testimonies seem to indicate that "medical grade" refrigerators are not necessary to keep blood cool. Didn't Armstrong require someone to be checking to make sure the power didn't go out and the blood in his fridge spoil?

This again suggests Lemond certainly could have cheated his way to TdF victory, but there is still, apparently, no evidence that he actually did.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The USA cycling team in 1984 was poorly funded, yet was still able to blood dope at the 1984 Olympics.

You mean the Olympics in ... USA? Specifically LA? Where they did a 1-day race or a single day TT?

Do you think that's perhaps different than transporting and storing blood in France for 1000s of kms over a 3 week duration?

Also, at least 2-3 recent rider/mechanic testimonies seem to indicate that "medical grade" refrigerators are not necessary to keep blood cool. Didn't Armstrong require someone to be checking to make sure the power didn't go out and the blood in his fridge spoil?

It doesn't matter what sort of fridge you have - if the power goes out your blood is going to spoil.

Go back a decade or more, and the power supply is likely to be even less consistent - so even less likelihood of keeping blood cold enough to be safe let alone viable.

This again suggests Lemond certainly could have cheated his way to TdF victory, but there is still, apparently, no evidence that he actually did.

No. It suggests you are not thinking clearly at all, and supplying arguments that prove the opposite.

 

[Irish2009]

I think you'll find that blood transfusions and blood doping were not banned in 1984 and therefore could have been used by anyone then. However afair after the 84 Olympics and the news that some riders who had transfusions won medals the practice was outlawed from 1985. It is possible that blood doping was used from these early days but the effects seem to be less dramatic than the use of EPO in the 1990's.

 

[Grandillusion]

Wiggo, silverrockets points were perfectly valid, you're getting overheated.

He ended by saying there is still, after all these years, no evidence that he did cheat in such a way.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wiggo, silverrockets points were perfectly valid, you're getting overheated.

He ended by saying there is still, after all these years, no evidence that he did cheat in such a way.

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. He's saying Lemond could have, after providing examples that prove blood doping was used, but not in any scenario that would benefit Lemond.

 

[ChrisE]

Yeah, I do. LeMond actually strikes me as pretty naive in many ways, whether it's believing that Hinault would work for him or that Landis was clean (which he believed for a week until the positive test came out), he actually seems more optimistic than your average clinic poster. It seems to be a pretty clear pattern. So, I could see him buying the whole "lost weight/renewed focus" nonsense.

And since Dr. Coggan answered your question, it would appear that he learned of LA's vo2 numbers right before he won his 3rd tour...

So yeah, I'm basing my opinion on that information. You've really never answered my question though?

Yes, "right before" he won his third tour. April was it?

Of course, the naivete is so entrenched that only if LA worked with Ferrari, discovered by sleeping beauty in July, would his wins be a fraud. Got it.

The only clear pattern I see here is buying into BS you want to believe in spite of the obvious, clearly based upon the line in the sand that is "who's who of LA's enemies". The "obvious" being GL didn't give a **** about LA winning tours until he equaled his total.

Funny that the clinic cult slams blind LA supporters when they do the same thing. If GL retired off into the woods and had no comment on anything LA post cancer, he would not get any rope in here. Hypocrisy rules here, as usual.

What was your question again? I have slept since then and I am sure more challenging queries have taken up my attention. Thanks.

 

[runninboy]

The USA cycling team in 1984 was poorly funded, yet was still able to blood dope at the 1984 Olympics.
Also, at least 2-3 recent rider/mechanic testimonies seem to indicate that "medical grade" refrigerators are not necessary to keep blood cool. Didn't Armstrong require someone to be checking to make sure the power didn't go out and the blood in his fridge spoil?

Ok even though Wiggo addressed this i want to chime in
First you really believe that the logistics between a single day race and a three week tour in regards to the storage and transportation of blood are remotely similar? Especially in the early 1980's? It appears that is your contention, if it is that borders on the asinine. Sorry i find no other way to characterize such an argument.
Secondly Yes you can absolutely store blood in something other than medical grade refrigerators but let us look at the reality there. Small refrigerators have drastic swings in temperature even with a consistent power source.
In the small hotels used at the time in much of the tour they were not equiped with air conditioning let alone small refrigerators. Basically these are older buildings with old electrical systems. Trying to run a frig back then would blow a circuit. But even if it was possible, what are you going to do carry the ****ing frig from hotel to hotel? Oooops not cold. They didn't have frig's in the buses back then. And as i mentioned the problem with anything other than a medical grade refrigerator is they have wild temperature swings. I mentioned that even in modern refrigerators there are temperature swings.
It is fine when you are storing soda, cold is cold, But when you have blood, if it is going from 38degrees to 55 degrees and back again you are playing with fire. That happens in full size refrigerators, even today. Insulin storage for diabetics is a problem because too hot or too cold it ruins the insulin. Same with blood.
Now the examples you sited were I presume with MODERNrefrigerators in regards to blood doping. And do you happen to know exactly what model of Refrigerator Lance used to store blood? Here is a clue, you can buy refrigerators that look like an ordinary refrigerator but have been engineered to provide a more stable temperature than a common refrigerator. But that technology did not exist in a common refrigerator in Europe 30 years ago.
That was my whole point, we are talking 30 years ago when guys were sweating without air conditioning in old hotels and you are talking about modern blood doping where blood can be transported to remain consistently cold with devices that did not exist 30 years ago. In the hotel, in the bus, in a motorcycle. Basic Igloo coolers are far better insulated today besides the ones equiped with a cooling system, 30 years ago we are talking styrofoam ice chest.
Again a one day race in a major city 30 years ago, blood doping a very simple matter. Transporting and using blood safely and without detection, all over France for a period of three weeks in the height of Summer 30 years ago? Laughable, totally implausible.

 

[Basecase]

Andrew still thinks business is healthy

https://twitter.com/andrewmcquaid/status/265489768090046464