Basecase said:
Was it another post taken down in haste? I get a 404 error. Those McQaids can't keep their traps shut! This should be fun!
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Was it another post taken down in haste? I get a 404 error. Those McQaids can't keep their traps shut! This should be fun!
If some of you still think blood doping was possible in a gran tour in the summer in the 1980's here is a little more info from a google search on proper blood storage
"When you store human blood and its components, there's little or no room for error. Red cells and whole blood, for instance, must be maintained strictly within the range of 2.0 to 6.0 degrees Celsius or 35.6 F to 42.8 F
Blood must be kept within 2° to 6°C(35.6 F to 42.8 F,) in order to be safe and effective for transfusion. If exposed to temperatures greater than 6°C, blood's ability to carry oxygen is greatly reduced and the probability of bacterial contamination is heightened. Furthermore, exposure to freezing temperatures will render blood useless and the transfusion of such blood could be fatal. For these reasons, the proper storage and transport of blood within the cold chain is essential. Standards for refrigerators, cold boxes and temperature monitoring equipment for use in the blood cold chain are key..."
Now if anyone wishes to continue this ridiculous premise i suggest you think about the logistics involved, what you know and what you think might even be a plausible scenario of transportation and storage. There is a reason why medical grade refrigerators are used for blood storage. Small temperature fluctuations can be fatal. You cannot just pack blood in ice or ice packs and throw it in a sytrofoam cooler(fyi modern gel ice packs are used for a reason, they give a more consistent temperature. of course that did not exist during the period in question)
So please before just saying "it was possible" lay out for us HOW it was possible. Keeping in mind that the days when the blood would be most needed would be in the Alpine stages. The most remote areas requiring the longest transport times and with the most primitive hotels and fewest creature comforts in the whole tour. Then allow us to poke huge holes in your theories.
It seems ridiculous to me that people who are upset at the fraud Lance perpetrated on the cycling world continue to lash out , trying to bring others down to Lances level. No professional riders of Lemonds era have leveled accusations at him. The only people who do are restricted to posters on message boards. However plenty of Lemonds contemporaries have stepped forward to vouch for the legitimacy of his accomplishments, including Paul Kimmage who went out of his way to single out Lemond as the one clean rider beyond reproach. And we have his record of excellence from a young age. Junior world champ Senior world champ. And the physiological numbers to back up such performances( highest V02Max up to that time)
All that points to Gregs legitimacy. And still ex fan boys grasp for straws that somehow showing that it might be possible for Greg to be dirty will help them feel better about themselves. They have nothing beyond he was too good to be clean. In case you missed it i posted earlier about a certain miler in high school with a best time of 5minutes 24 seconds who a year and a half later became the first high schooler to break 4 minutes in the mile and only the 13th american to do so. Numbers 10 11 12 did it in the same race that Ryun did.He did this within a decade of Roger Bannister being the first to accomplish the feat. There is no doubt that Ryun was clean and his amazing result was purely from hard work. And yet it took 36 years to break his high school record and plenty of those that tried & failed had access to better training , PED's, and today they run on fast artificial tracks versus the dirt tracks of the 60's.
Being the best is not proof of cheating ask yourselves why you try so hard to argue the point.
"When you store human blood and its components, there's little or no room for error. Red cells and whole blood, for instance, must be maintained strictly within the range of 2.0 to 6.0 degrees Celsius or 35.6 F to 42.8 F
Blood must be kept within 2° to 6°C(35.6 F to 42.8 F,) in order to be safe and effective for transfusion. If exposed to temperatures greater than 6°C, blood's ability to carry oxygen is greatly reduced and the probability of bacterial contamination is heightened. Furthermore, exposure to freezing temperatures will render blood useless and the transfusion of such blood could be fatal. For these reasons, the proper storage and transport of blood within the cold chain is essential. Standards for refrigerators, cold boxes and temperature monitoring equipment for use in the blood cold chain are key..."
Now if anyone wishes to continue this ridiculous premise i suggest you think about the logistics involved, what you know and what you think might even be a plausible scenario of transportation and storage. There is a reason why medical grade refrigerators are used for blood storage. Small temperature fluctuations can be fatal. You cannot just pack blood in ice or ice packs and throw it in a sytrofoam cooler(fyi modern gel ice packs are used for a reason, they give a more consistent temperature. of course that did not exist during the period in question)
So please before just saying "it was possible" lay out for us HOW it was possible. Keeping in mind that the days when the blood would be most needed would be in the Alpine stages. The most remote areas requiring the longest transport times and with the most primitive hotels and fewest creature comforts in the whole tour. Then allow us to poke huge holes in your theories.
It seems ridiculous to me that people who are upset at the fraud Lance perpetrated on the cycling world continue to lash out , trying to bring others down to Lances level. No professional riders of Lemonds era have leveled accusations at him. The only people who do are restricted to posters on message boards. However plenty of Lemonds contemporaries have stepped forward to vouch for the legitimacy of his accomplishments, including Paul Kimmage who went out of his way to single out Lemond as the one clean rider beyond reproach. And we have his record of excellence from a young age. Junior world champ Senior world champ. And the physiological numbers to back up such performances( highest V02Max up to that time)
All that points to Gregs legitimacy. And still ex fan boys grasp for straws that somehow showing that it might be possible for Greg to be dirty will help them feel better about themselves. They have nothing beyond he was too good to be clean. In case you missed it i posted earlier about a certain miler in high school with a best time of 5minutes 24 seconds who a year and a half later became the first high schooler to break 4 minutes in the mile and only the 13th american to do so. Numbers 10 11 12 did it in the same race that Ryun did.He did this within a decade of Roger Bannister being the first to accomplish the feat. There is no doubt that Ryun was clean and his amazing result was purely from hard work. And yet it took 36 years to break his high school record and plenty of those that tried & failed had access to better training , PED's, and today they run on fast artificial tracks versus the dirt tracks of the 60's.
Being the best is not proof of cheating ask yourselves why you try so hard to argue the point.
runninboy said:...
So please before just saying "it was possible" lay out for us HOW it was possible. Keeping in mind that the days when the blood would be most needed would be in the Alpine stages. The most remote areas requiring the longest transport times and with the most primitive hotels and fewest creature comforts in the whole tour. Then allow us to poke huge holes in your theories.
...
Being the best is not proof of cheating ask yourselves why you try so hard to argue the point.
Pre-empting the fanboys, let me predict the response:
It is easy. You take the blood, see, and some kind of a hose, see, and a needle, see, and you hook it all up and poke the guy.
As simply stupid as that is, if they even get things in that order, it would be impressive.
*In the mid '80s, the standard for how to store frozen RBC:
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.me.36.020185.002435?journalCode=med
(reference is a 1985 paper from Mass General, arguably the finest hospital in the world)
Frozen blood cells typically are stored at -85 C in frozen freezers, in the vapor over liquid nitrogen, or in liquid nitrogen itself (-196 C).
FWIW, Liquid Nitrogen access/handling is a controlled process.
Dave.
@runninboy
I feel I have a reasonable grasp on the history of doping in cycling.
Arguing that top riders in any era were doped is not hard, believe me.
Funny how folks are jumping all over Millar for claiming that Sky are clean.
Consensus seems to be that he has no idea because he's not part of the team. I think that's a fair point.
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.
I feel I have a reasonable grasp on the history of doping in cycling.
Arguing that top riders in any era were doped is not hard, believe me.
Funny how folks are jumping all over Millar for claiming that Sky are clean.
Consensus seems to be that he has no idea because he's not part of the team. I think that's a fair point.
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.
Landis didn't seem to have much trouble with it (from his interview with Kimmage). He just used 'ice water' IIRC.
runninboy said:
I think what he has said about Lemond is that he is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
He doesn't name Lemond in that interview, but I think he wrote something very similar for the Sunday Times around the time and said it was Lemond.
It could be in this article:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/cycling/article107067.ece
or this one
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/cycling/article102553.ece
It may not be either but I don't have a subscription to check.
the delgados said:
NO, YOU post these said chapters/info, as YOU'RE STILL on the "Lemond doped too" schtick. Why haven't you posted this info before, when so many have asked for it to be posted? Is it because it doesn't exist and you continue to make things up as you go along, to fit your agenda? please post said info here. WE don't need to "go back and read" anything, we're not trying to prove anything, YOU are, that's how this game works.
86TDFWinner said:
I can assure you I don't have an agenda.
I'm not on a "Lemond doped schtick." I've already said that I'm not an authority on the subject. I'm merely an interested observer of the sport.
And based on what I've read--both past and present--it's going to take to convince me that Tour winners are clean.
P.S. What "info" are you talking about? I'm merely stating an opinion based on passages from a book I read. I have not made anything up.
, You asked for someone to "go back and read some chapters in some book" What's the name of said book? Now you're mentioning some "passages in a book you've read".......what book was it that you read the supposed passages from? Who wrote the book? what kind of evidence do they give that suggests "everyone was doping"? Please explain.the delgados said:
As for your last post above, you say "everything I've read", again where is this supposed "everything you've read" See, you're making stuff up again as you go along. Please post the said "everything you've read" stuff that suggests "no one was clean", that you keep talking about, please post it here. It must be CREDIBLE info too, not something you've heard, or your dog told you.
I don't know how much simpler I can make the request, please give us the name of the book you supposedly got the info from, and also, please post said passages from said unnamed book. Thank you.
86TDFWinner said:
He (she? sorry, not sure of gender of anyone on forums) did name the book, and posted that he didn't have it in front of him so he was paraphrasing. It's the part of his post (well pretty much the whole post) that says:
Why is anyone wrong for suggesting the same about Kimmage? He never rode with Lemond. They weren't chums. How does he know for sure that Lemond was clean?
I don't have Rough Ride in front of me, but I remember more than one passage that would make one wonder if Lemond was indeed clean.
Read the chapter consisting of his Tour diaries. In it, he says he can't believe Lemond won a time trial stage after being dropped by the author in the Giro three weeks before.
Also, read the last chapter, where he expresess concern about revealing the seedy culture of cycling. I think it's called "Spitting in the Soup."
Totally paraphrasing here, but he said he couldn't get into the battle between Lemond and Fignon in the 89 Tour. All he saw were dilated pupils and track marks. He wasn't referring to them specifically, but after reading his book, forgive me if I tend to doubt the authenticity of any Tour winner.
The book is called ROUGH RIDE and it is by PAUL KIMMAGE. I believe there has been sufficient citation posted here that you could probably do the rest of the work yourself if you wanted to find out. By which I mean that demanding direct quotes of relevant passages probably isn't going to change your mind, it's just the other poster's reading of it as insinuation. There is no 'proof' that Lemond doped, and I believe the poster you're responding to also acknowledges that, but rather says that based on a reading of that book, there's reason to doubt that anyone was clean. That's all.
the delgados said:
Paraphrasing? No that is when you abbreviate the chapter down to its essence. You have skewed the last but two chapter by focusing on six lines out of 6 pages.
As for the diary, the full effect of his comments is this
Quite a different meaning when read in full, isn't it?
ultimobici said:
Indeed, but notice how said poster didn't post anything remotely resembling that, just his skewed opinion that he claims, is how the author came off, or that he had some sort of "in", where he got said opinion.
First off, let me thank you for FINALLY posting some sort of info as to what you're supposedly talking about, even though it wasn't really that informative, it was hearsay from a book.
I won't comment on the rest bc it's been commented on at lengths here. Keep clining to some passages from a book. Sad you LA fans can't seem to let it go.
86TDFWinner said:
Ok, you got me. Rough Ride is a figment of my imagination.
The Secret Race? It's as real as Tyler's vanishing twin.
Silly me, I thought I could pull the wool over your eyes.
P.S. Armstrong fan? Really? Good one.
ultimobici said:
For what it's worth, Kimmage had similar words of praise for Roche throughout the book. In fact, Rough Ride read as part expose and part hagiography.
After the release of RR, Kimmage said he regretted heaping so much praise on Roche.
I wonder why.
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
Because when Kimmage was on TV and asked directly about Roche & Kelly, PK would not say whether they doped or not.the delgados said:
Roche threatened to sue Kimmage and blasted him in the media.
Thats your why.
Dr. Maserati said:
Which reminds me of another pasage in the book when he was asked for an interview my a writer from L'Equipe.
His teammates couldn't understand why a lowly domestique would get a feature interview in such a prestigious publication, but that's neither here nor there.
Point being is he said he heavily edited comments about Roche and Kelly during the interview.
86TDFWinner said:
I have actually been defending LeMond but seriously, you actually come across as being as defensive as any of the worst Armstrong fans.
I see people are still trying to claim blood doping was being used in ProCycling during the 80's so I decided to make a list.
On this list are rider's, soigneurs or others who have admitted or talked about doping in their career's. All were involved in pro cycling at some point in the 80s. To help illustrate, I will also name their teams during that period.
Paul Kimmage (RMO, Fagor)
Bjarne Riis (Roland, Lucas, Toshiba, Systeme-u)
Willy Voet (SEM, Skil, RMO)
Joe Parkin (TVM, Eurotop, Humo, Tulip)
Peter Winnen (Ijsoberke, Capri-Sonne, Panasonic)
Steven Rooks (SEM, Panasonic, PDM)
Allan Peiper (Peugeot, Panasonic)
Didi Thurau (Hoonved, Del Tongo, Hitachi, Brianzoli, Roland)
Jesper Skibby (Roland, TVM)
Brian Holm (Roland, Sigma-Histor)
Johan Van der Velde (Raleigh, Metauromobili, Panasonic, Gis, TVM)
Dag-Erik Pedersen (Bianchi, Murella, Ariostea, PDM)
Paul Watson (ANC, Hitachi)
Daryl Webster (PMS-Dawes, Teka)
Per Pedersen (RMO, BH)
Soren Lilholt (Systeme-U, Histor)
Bo-Andre Namtvedt (ADR)
Thorjus Larsen (ADR)
Colin Sturgess (ADR)
Maarten Ducrot (Kwantum, Superconfex, Domex, TVM)
Gert-Jan Theunisse (Panasonic, PDM)
Ludo De keulenaar (Raleigh, Panasonic, TVM, Buckler)
Eddy Planckaert (Splendor, Panasonic, ADR)
Mathieu Hermans (SEAT-Orbea, Caja Rural, SEUR)
Jeff D'Hont (Lucas)
Rolf Jaermann (Isotonic, Frank-Magniflex)
Giles Delion (Weinmann, Helvetia)
Laurent Fignon (Renault, Systeme-U)
Pierre-Henri Mentheour (Miko, Coop, La Redoute, Renault)
Andre Chappuis (SEM, Systeme-u, RMO)
Please feel free to add any others I missed.
This is a varied list of riders covering a large cross-section of teams. Not one of them EVER, EVER mentioned blood doping during that era. The earliest mention's of EPO usage are 89 and that seemed a rarity.
So either all these guys who have talked about doping(many admitting to using) are either part of some grand conspiracy to hide blood doping in the 80s or alternatively, blood doping was not actually used in Euro pro cycling during the 80s. I think I know which version has more traction.
the delgados said:
He got the interview because he was a good writer which has proved to be the case in subsequent years. Kimmage clearly had a talent for it. It wasn't because he was anti-doping or anything , technically speaking he was a doper himself at the time even though I don't view him as such. He didn't edit his comments at all, he just waxed lyrical about them.
I don't think Kimmage has ever come out and said Roche, Kelly or Earley were doping during their career's.
pmcg76 said:
Kimmage doesn't have to come out and say Roche, Kelly, or Earley were doping during their careers.
It's already obvious.
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
the delgados said:
This is a thread about LeMond.
Can you point out exactly what relevance there is in Rough Ride? Your only point (ages back) was that PK said all the top tier doped, you couldn't show where that was and it has since been shown in a more recent interview that even if he had said that he has clarified it.
Dr. Maserati said:
I apologize if I derailed a thread.
I never said that Paul Kimmage accused all top tier riders of doping.
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
No need to apologize to me - it was a genuine question because I thought there may have been something in Rough Ride that I had forgotten.the delgados said:
I took the below as an indication that you had, no problem if it wasn't.
the delgados said:
When I read Rough Ride the first time I remember very carefully trying to work out which riders doped - the only one PK outed was Chappuis and there was a n ambiguous piece about Claveyrolat, but that was about it.
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